And Windu and Qui-Gon were only equals years before RotS.
Vaapad lets him match his opponents speed. He's not normally that fast.Is there a good speed comparison? Vaapad gives him better mentality and focus on first place. It's not the technique that gives him speed, it is his Force potential.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal. - wookieepedia. Yes, unreliable source but they wouldn't simply right things out of nothing.
I looked for that a while back in the source Wookiee claims it is in. Never found it. So it does seem to be complete BS.
Originally posted by ares834
I looked for that a while back in the source Wookiee claims it is in. Never found it. So it does seem to be complete BS.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal. - wookieepedia. Yes, unreliable source but they wouldn't simply right things out of nothing.
Originally posted by ares834
I looked for that a while back in the source Wookiee claims it is in. Never found it. So it does seem to be complete BS.
Check out the The New Essential Guide to Characters.
BS for sure. Checked plenty of forums for available sources, this guide was one of them. Went through at least 5 canon sources. If authors wanted Qui-Gon to be on par with Windu, which I wanted as well, it would be easy to find a prove. All sources state that only Windu could fight Yoda as equal. And all other evidence such as Maul handling Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan handling Maul, Sidious handling both Maul and Oppress and finally Windu handling Sidious makes it quite clear.
I am disappointed at wookieepedia as normally it describes canon facts well.
So Sidious66! I do agree that Qui-Gon wouldn't stand even 10 seconds against Sidious!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't think we can just make things up like Sidious could have killed Maul when ever he wanted.
Sidious can blitz two "celebrated swordsmasters" before they could react, and then another one seconds later. Are you telling me that you believe Maul to be a more challenging opponent than them three together?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's stick to facts.
That's what I'm basing my opinion off of.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If we're taking this fight as canon I think we should at least give Maul the credit he deserves for lasting as long as he did(with the aid of his brother of course) against a Sidious wielding 2 Sabers utilizing his full Force powers and out for the kill.
Full force powers? lol, not even close. Sidious's lightning is capable of knocking Yoda unconscious and ripping his lightsaber from his hands. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was using his full force power.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also when Sidious disarms Maul it's when Maul is grieving over Savage from the way have understood it. So it looks to me like Maul holds his own in Sabers which is very impressive.
I must have missed the part where Maul was distracted from bawling his eyes out.
And what do you mean by "Maul holds his own?" He was "dancing back" desperately, trying to parry Sidious' blows. He couldn't even follow Sidious' blade's anymore. It wasn't even a struggle really. Maul and Savage were straight up massacred.
I think we read a different fight.
Originally posted by Arhael
[i]Really? Then Mace is far superior to Sidious without darkside. Every character has his own state of mind during fights. And Vaapad doesn't transform a weak Jedi into superior combatant, Windu was immensely powerful Jedi and Vaapad was his solution to reach full potential.And couldn't blitz Windu, who couldn't blitz Qui-Gon, who couldn't blitz Maul. 😄
From what I understand, vaapad also allows it's user to draw on the dark energy given off from his opponents allowing them to match their fury and speed. However, I know it takes a little time for Mace to fully submerge into vaapad, which is why he was being forced back during the beginning of the duel.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious can blitz two "celebrated swordsmasters" before they could react, and then another one seconds later. Are you telling me that you believe Maul to be a more challenging opponent than them three together?
Maul is faster than those 3. So yeah he can't be blitzed anywhere near as easily. Sidious never felt the need to take out 2 Sabers to deal with those 3 swordsmen.
Doesn't mean Maul could take the 3 of them together. A>B>C just doesn't work like that.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Full force powers? lol, not even close. Sidious's lightning is capable of knocking Yoda unconscious and ripping his lightsaber from his hands.
He caught Yoda off guard. Maul is "physically" much stronger and more durable than Yoda.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was using his full force power.
Except for the fact that he used his Force Powers and was out for the kill. The fact that he was wielding 2 Sabers shows the guy was dead serious and out for the kill. If it was so easy for him to win any time he wanted, to blitz these 2 as easily as he blitzed those 3 "celebrated" swordsmen, then why did he Need to pull out that 2nd Lightsaber?? Something we've never seen him do before, no matter how many opponents he was facing.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And what do you mean by "Maul holds his own?" He was "dancing back" desperately, trying to parry Sidious' blows. He couldn't even follow Sidious' blade's anymore. It wasn't even a struggle really. Maul and Savage were straight up massacred.
But he did Parry all Sidious's blows up until the end where Savage was taken out.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul is faster than those 3. So yeah he can't be blitzed anywhere near as easily.
Yeah Maul is likely faster than any of them individually. But I'll remind you that Sidious's attention was divided among four master swordsmen.
A poster from Comic Vine had created a respect thread for master Tiin stating that Tiin can move his blade so fast that he can produce a shield of energy. I believe he took the quote from Cloak of Deception where Tiin fights along side Qui Gon and Obi Wan. I'll get you the link maybe later today.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious never felt the need to take out 2 Sabers to deal with those 3 swordsmen.
Sidious' prefered style of saber combat doesn't mean Savage and Maul are superior to Mace + three master swordsmen, because they clearly aren't.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He caught Yoda off guard.
Which time? When he gets knocked unconscious or when he gets his saber blasted from his hands?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul is "physically" much stronger and more durable than Yoda.
Do you have any proof for this? Because judging by feats, Yoda is actually stronger when inhanced by the force. He did overpower Sidious in a saber lock, after all. Maul and Savage couldn't even overpower Sidious. I've seen a couple of posters here say that there is a comic with Yoda carrying a huge gun that was the size of a small house during the cone wars. I've never seen the comic so IDK.
Do you also have proof that Maul was more durable? I seem to recall a nightsister momentarily putting Maul on his knees with her force lightning. Though I guess you can argue that Maul became more powerful. But still, nothing indicates he can handle a powerful lightning attack from Sidious, let alone a full powered attack from him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Except for the fact that he used his Force Powers and was out for the kill.
He used one force push on Maul during the duel. The only other times he used the force against them was at the beginning, when he throws both of them clear across the room. And the other time was after he had easily disarmed Maul and then started torturing him with TK and lightning. Clearly, Sidious was not going all out on them. Had he used his "full force powers" there most likely would not have been a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that he was wielding 2 Sabers shows the guy was dead serious and out for the kill. If it was so easy for him to win any time he wanted, to blitz these 2 as easily as he blitzed those 3 "celebrated" swordsmen, then why did he Need to pull out that 2nd Lightsaber?? Something we've never seen him do before, no matter how many opponents he was facing.
I don't believe Sidious could have blitzed them quite as fast as he did the first two jedi who accompanied Windu, but I do believe he could have ended that fight a lot sooner had he wanted to.
Yes, Sidious did want to kill Maul, but nothing indicates that he was going full throttle on them. In fact, from the way the passage is read, Maul and Savage were being more aggressive than Sidious, while Sidious was turning aside all their blows. During the opening of their fight, Sidious even gives Maul and Savage time to get back on there feet, and stands their calmly waiting for them to make contact. Palpatine didn't give Tiin and Kolar time. And I don't believe Maul and savage can pick themselves up from the floor, ignite their sabers, and come rushing at Sidious faster than Tiin and Kolar can react.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But he did Parry all Sidious's blows up until the end where Savage was taken out.
Maul can not handle Palpatine at his full speed. He can't even follow Palpatine's blade.
Nothing suggests that Palpatine was using his full force powers on Maul and Savage, or utilizing his speed to it's fullest. Not when we have seen what Palpatine's lightning is capable of, and how he can blitz two jedi swordmasters before they could react.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah Maul is likely faster than any of them individually. But I'll remind you that Sidious's attention was divided among four master swordsmen.A poster from Comic Vine had created a respect thread for master Tiin stating that Tiin can move his blade so fast that he can produce a shield of energy. I believe he took the quote from Cloak of Deception where Tiin fights along side Qui Gon and Obi Wan. I'll get you the link maybe later today.
Here is that link to the Tiin Thread:
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/saesee-tiin-respect-thread/87-78153/
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah Maul is likely faster than any of them individually. But I'll remind you that Sidious's attention was divided among four master swordsmen.A poster from Comic Vine had created a respect thread for master Tiin stating that Tiin can move his blade so fast that he can produce a shield of energy. I believe he took the quote from Cloak of Deception where Tiin fights along side Qui Gon and Obi Wan. I'll get you the link maybe later today.
I suggest you read more about Maul. His training in Combat is beyond Tiin, Fisto and Kolar. And his speed feats are greater than any of those 3. Read Shadow Hunter. (It's actually a great book).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious' prefered style of saber combat doesn't mean Savage and Maul are superior to Mace + three master swordsmen, because they clearly aren't.
Wait wait who said anything about being superior to Mace?? Mace is Sidious's equal in Lightsaber combat (or superior).
2 of those Jedi were dead before Mace even engaged Sidious.
What I'm saying is those 3 who got killed so quickly are not even in the same ball park as Maul and Savage.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you have any proof for this? Because judging by feats, Yoda is actually stronger when inhanced by the force. He did overpower Sidious in a saber lock, after all. Maul and Savage couldn't even overpower Sidious. I've seen a couple of posters here say that there is a comic with Yoda carrying a huge gun that was the size of a small house during the cone wars. I've never seen the comic so IDK.
Well we saw Yoda getting caught off guard and Maul and Savage are Physical beasts. Or are you forgetting how Savage floored Dooku in close combat just using his strength. Or how he disarmed Obi-Wan in a few blows?? Or how many laser blasts he has taken. Laser blasts that would blow Yoda (or any Jedi) up if he doesn't dodge or block them.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But still, nothing indicates he can handle a powerful lightning attack from Sidious, let alone a full powered attack from him.Clearly, Sidious was not going all out on them. Had he used his "full force powers" there most likely would not have been a lightsaber duel.
I don't believe Sidious could have blitzed them quite as fast as he did the first two jedi who accompanied Windu, but I do believe he could have ended that fight a lot sooner had he wanted to.
Nothing suggests that Palpatine was using his full force powers on Maul and Savage, or utilizing his speed to it's fullest. Not when we have seen what Palpatine's lightning is capable of, and how he can blitz two jedi swordmasters before they could react.
You claim Sidious could take these 2 out in a few seconds with either Force or Speed Blitz and yet we see nothing of the sort. Even though he was out for the kill. And nothing else.
You claim he didn't need 2 Sabers, that he just felt like using them this one time? Well since I've never seen him wield 2 Sabers before, I'll assume he felt he needed 2 to take on both these beasts.
Look Dooku seriously struggled against Yoda's speed but it's not like Yoda could blitz him in a few seconds. So don't think just because Maul had trouble following Sidious's blade that he can't last a couple of seconds.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I suggest you read more about Maul. His training in Combat is beyond Tiin, Fisto and Kolar. And his speed feats are greater than any of those 3. Read Shadow Hunter. (It's actually a great book).
I have. And yes Maul's training was more harsh than any jedi.
But again, I'll remind you: Palpatine's attention was divided among four jedi masters, whereas it was only divided among two with Maul and Savage. By what we know about Savage so far, he is not as fast as any of the jedi who accompanied Mace Windu.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait wait who said anything about being superior to Mace?? Mace is Sidious's equal in Lightsaber combat (or superior).
You seem to be implying that Sidious went harder on Maul and Savage than he did against Mace & company just because he used two sabers against them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What I'm saying is those 3 who got killed so quickly are not even in the same ball park as Maul and Savage.
The only advantage Savage has over those three is his raw physical and force strength, which was rendered useless against Palpatine's. Nothing indicates that he is faster than Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we saw Yoda getting caught off guard
No....we didn't.
I'm not going to continue this with you if you keep making things up. I like you, DP, but you have a habit of making things up and ignoring points when an argument doesn't go your way, and it gets a little irritating.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and Maul and Savage are Physical beasts. Or are you forgetting how Savage floored Dooku in close combat just using his strength. Or how he disarmed Obi-Wan in a few blows?? Or how many laser blasts he has taken. Laser blasts that would blow Yoda (or any Jedi) up if he doesn't dodge or block them.
You said Maul was physically stronger and more durable than Yoda, which he's not.
Savage is probably more durable than Yoda due to his inhancement with magic, but he is not stronger than a force-inhanced Yoda. Sidious was able to hold both his and Maul's lightsabers at bay using one arm for each, whereas Yoda over powers Sidious in a saber lock.
Also, Dooku's lightning was sufficient enough to put Savage on his ass, and his lightning pales in comparison to Palpatine's. So, no, Maul and Savage stand no chance against a full powered lightning attack from Palpatine.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You claim Sidious could take these 2 out in a few seconds with either Force or Speed Blitz and yet we see nothing of the sort. Even though he was out for the kill. And nothing else.
Sidious wasn't putting his all into that fight. That much is clear, and you keep ignoring my points.
By your logic, since Palpatine was trying to kill Luke on the Death Star that means he was putting all his power into his lightning assaults.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You claim he didn't need 2 Sabers, that he just felt like using them this one time? Well since I've never seen him wield 2 Sabers before, I'll assume he felt he needed 2 to take on both these beasts.
Yeah, Palpatine felt that Savage & Maul were a more threatening force than Mace & three "celebrated swordsmasters" 🙄
If you read the spoilers and passage that Gideon posted, then you seem to be ignoring the fact that Sidious was walking into the middle of a war zone.
The fact that Sidious gave Maul and Savage a chance to recover from his TK attack is proof that he did not utilize his speed the way he did against Mace & company. Unless you believe that Maul and Savage can pick themselves up from the floor, ignite their sabers, and come rushing towards Sidious faster than Tiin and Kolar can react.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look Dooku seriously struggled against Yoda's speed but it's not like Yoda could blitz him in a few seconds. So don't think just because Maul had trouble following Sidious's blade that he can't last a couple of seconds.
What? Maul was beyond struggling, he couldn't even hang. When Sidious decided to disarm him, that's exactly what he did.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66You seem to be implying that Sidious went harder on Maul and Savage than he did against Mace & company just because he used two sabers against them.
I'm implying he didn't view Mace's companions as a threat. And he showed why. Mace was the only threat. Hence the need for only 1 Saber to use against him.
Do I need to remind you again he took 2 of those "celebrated" companions down before Mace even had a chance to engage him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only advantage Savage has over those three is his raw physical and force strength, which was rendered useless against Palpatine's. Nothing indicates that he is faster than Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.
Maybe but arguable. Savage was fast enough to compete with the likes of Obi-Wan and Anakin. And it's not like Count Dooku was able to stab him within a few seconds either.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No....we didn't.I'm not going to continue this with you if you keep making things up. I like you, DP, but you have a habit of making things up and ignoring points when an argument doesn't go your way, and it gets a little irritating.
Whooaaa what? Making things up?? So Yoda wasn't caught off guard when Sidious shot him?? So what he just purposely didn't block/deflect the Lightning with his hands and decided to tank it??
Sure even caught off guard Yoda's natural force defenses will be incredible. But let's not pretend physicality is not an issue. Sidious shot Yoda's Saber out of his grip, whilst he couldn't do the same to Mace Windu.
S66 it's not the first time you've chosen to stop debating me. You do that even when it's clear that I'm bringing up perfectly valid points.
I personally find the Sidious fanboyism a bit over the top. Yes he was kicking ass. But that's not good enough for you. Your bent on proving not only was he kicking ass, but he was fighting for no reason, he could have killed them both in 2 seconds flat.
And if someone challenges that such a deadly trained sith lord can last more than 2 seconds against Sidious along side his beast of a brother, then your not going to continue??
Whatever.
Either way I agree about this debate being over anyway because we're not getting anywhere, and since we know Sidious did kick ass it's kind of pointless anyway.
From what I understand, vaapad also allows it's user to draw on the dark energy given off from his opponents allowing them to match their fury and speed. However, I know it takes a little time for Mace to fully submerge into vaapad, which is why he was being forced back during the beginning of the duel.
Windu uses Vaapad because it gives perfect state of mind for his personality. Like perfect calm for Yoda. Like perfect calm together with love for others for Luke. Like tapping into anger for Anakin. Like pure evilness for Palpatine. Each character needs specific state of mind to reach the limits of their capabilities.
Windu developed Vaapad because he had darkness in him on first place, so he didn't need to control it but utilize instead.
At the end of the day Vaapad is just a style and a state of mind, which doesn't suit everyone. But power and speed comes from Force potential.
I find it wrong, when someone says that "Sidious is far superior to Windu without Vaapad" because Windu without Vaapad is the same as Sidious without using anger.
Windu defeated him not because of Vaapad, he defeated him because he is imensely powerful Jedi with a lot of experience and exelent lightsaber combatant, also, he was lucky that Palpatine had a shatterpoint.