Nope. The RotS novel explicitly states he accepted Sidious's speed and dakrness and turned it back on its source like a lightsaber deflecting a blasterbolt.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.
With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
It states that user must enjoy the fight, in other words gain greater power from utilizing his inner darkness. It doesn't say that he gets empowered by opponent, neither that speed comes from an opponent.
This is Anakin's perception:
The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose
Windu was utilizing darkside, that's how Anakin felt it.
And this is Windu's perception:
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt
It is his emotoional state during the fight.
Indeed, it says that he accepted his furious speed. But it doesn't mean that his own speed got leveled because of that. In reality physical attacks cannot be absorbed. Force is not coming out, user draws it into himself to empower muscles. Windu needed to empower his own muscles to block attacks and he couldn't get empowered from physical attacks.
Here naration continues about his emotional state:
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad is clearly in his mentality, it is not a Force technique.
And here he deflects lightning:
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Ones again naration confirms that it is state of mind, not a Force technique to become empowered by opponent. There are plenty examples of blocking and deflecting Force lightning both with and without lightsaber. Yet, Windu still slipped back into Vaapad. Why? Because it is his state of mind. It says "Power passed into him and out again without touching him", yet, in reality power did not pass into him at all, it was caught and deflected by lightsaber, which confirms that the whole "loop" thing happenes on emotional level.
No it isn't. Its saying that the only reason Windu could be on Sidious' level was because of Vaapad. He wouldn't be on that level against other opponents like Yoda or Dooku.
What you mean he wouldn't be on that level against other opponents?
Why then Dooku started getting overwhelmed and decided to run away like he did with Yoda?
Why then in every canon source Windu is described as the only Jedi who could fight Yoda as equal?
Why then in Windu's own opinion his lightsaber skills are unmached, which would include even Yoda?
Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber.
I hate how elusive the nature of Vapaad is and what it's metaphysical property actually does.
I wish a canon source would just explain it properly without using metaphorical type descriptions.
But I personally agree with Arhael, that Mace is on that level no matter who he's fighting and not just against Sidious.
Originally posted by Arhael
The novel explicitly states that it is state of mind.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt
It is his emotoional state during the fight.
Indeed, it says that he accepted his furious speed. But it doesn't mean that his own speed got leveled because of that. In reality physical attacks cannot be absorbed. Force is not coming out, user draws it into himself to empower muscles. Windu needed to empower his own muscles to block attacks and he couldn't get empowered from physical attacks.And here he deflects lightning:
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward himBecause Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is [b]a state of mind
: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Ones again naration confirms that it is state of mind, not a Force technique to become empowered by opponent. There are plenty examples of blocking and deflecting Force lightning both with and without lightsaber. Yet, Windu still slipped back into Vaapad. Why? Because it is his state of mind. It says "Power passed into him and out again without touching him", yet, in reality power did not pass into him at all, it was caught and deflected by lightsaber, which confirms that the whole "loop" thing happenes on emotional level [/B]
OK... You just proved my point. I never denied it was a state of mind, however, it still allows him to channel his opponents darkness and use it as his own as those two quotes above show. Ignore them if you wish, but that doesn't make them non-canon.
"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt"
It's just not clear what the heck this means though Imo.
And isn't there a passage that states Maul fed off Obi-Wan's anger in their final fight in TPM?
So what does that mean Maul also use an opponent's anger against him?
It's not a Mace, or even Vaapad, specific thing. We see others like Scourge and Bane do it as well. However, no one does it as completely as Mace. He doesn't merely feed of it he matches it completely. Hence the statement about him and Sidious being in a never ending fight were it not for shatterpoint.
Anyway, there is no other way to take that quote than that Mace used Sidious's power against him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whooaaa what? Making things up?? So Yoda wasn't caught off guard when Sidious shot him?? So what he just purposely didn't block/deflect the Lightning with his hands and decided to tank it??
I thought you were referring to the part where Sidious rips Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, because it wouldn't be the first time you claimed Yoda was caught off guard then by Sidious when you were losing an argument.
However, I still do not see how Yoda was caught off guard the first time considering that Yoda was there to fight and seeing how he puts his hand out, seemingly trying to block the attack. So please explain how Yoda was caught off guard, and please don't say something like "well he was still grieving over all the dead jedi."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I personally find the Sidious fanboyism a bit over the top. Yes he was kicking ass. But that's not good enough for you. Your bent on proving not only was he kicking ass, but he was fighting for no reason, he could have killed them both in 2 seconds flat.
Repeating the same arguments over and over isn't helping you, so now you resort to crying "fanboyism!"(lol). stfu with that shit. If you truly believe I'm arguing out of fanboyism then why are you waisting your time arguing with me? There is no convincing a fanboy that he is wrong, right? So why make yourself look stupid by continuing?
You're the one making claims like "Maul was too conflicted to fight whilst Sidious is using his full force powers" and "Sidious only disarms Maul while Maul is on the floor weeping over his brother." You're basically making excuses for why Maul and Savage get the shit stomped out of them by Sidious. But Yeah, the Sidious faboyism is over the top 🙄
Originally posted by Arhael
If it allows to draw on "darkside energy" of opponent, then perhaps only in wookieepedia.
But wookieepedia is so reliable, remember? 😛
You trusted it so much that you were quoting it before actually checking the source material lol
By the way, do you mind posting the entire passage of the Palpatine and Windu fight, all the way up to Mace's death.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I still do not see how Yoda was caught off guard the first time considering that Yoda was there to fight and seeing how he puts his hand out, seemingly trying to block the attack. So please explain how Yoda was caught off guard, and please don't say something like "well he was still grieving over all the dead jedi."
Yoda was caught off-guard, because he apparently didn't expect the force attack and didn't defend against it in a proper way. And going by the fact that he blocked a similar attack by Sidious during their later duel, what other explanation would there for him failing the first time?
You're the one making claims like "Maul was too conflicted to fight whilst Sidious is using his full force powers" and "Sidious only disarms Maul while Maul is on the floor weeping over his brother." You're basically making excuses for why Maul and Savage get the shit stomped out of them by Sidious. But Yeah, the Sidious faboyism is over the top 🙄
Arguing about a yet unreleased source appears to be pretty pointless, don't you think so? We have seen in another source, that Sidious was "barely able" to deflect Maul's attacks, when the younger Sith Lord was jumping at him in a surge of anger. So it would be utterly ridiculous for Sidious, to assume that Maul or his magically enhanced brother (tougher, physically stronger, perhaps stronger in the force) would pose no threat to him - especially when he has to deal with them both at once.
But wookieepedia is so reliable, remember? 😛
You trusted it so much that you were quoting it before actually checking the source material lol
What a nice way to divert attention away from the fact that...oh...wait...Vaapad is not some magical method to suck away Dark Side energy from a Sith Lord.
By the way, do you mind posting the entire passage of the Palpatine and Windu fight, all the way up to Mace's death.
So that you can check the source material for the first time? 😉 The movie overwrites the novel anyway. Have you seen it? Perhaps with the commentary on, to hear how Sidious uses all he can against Mace to kill him which results in his face melting from the lightning being deflected right back at him. This after the Jedi Master has overpowered him in the lightsaber duel. Just asking.
And by the way: Comments like "Dooku's lightning[...]pales in comparison to Palpatine's" and "Sidious wasn't putting his all into that fight. That much is clear" reek of fanboyism, especially when handed in without proof. So you shouldn't start crying, if somebody calls you a fanboy - especially not with that username of yours.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I thought you were referring to the part where Sidious rips Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, because it wouldn't be the first time you claimed Yoda was caught off guard then by Sidious when you were losing an argument.
I don't really remember bringing that up before.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I still do not see how Yoda was caught off guard the first time considering that Yoda was there to fight and seeing how he puts his hand out, seemingly trying to block the attack. So please explain how Yoda was caught off guard, and please don't say something like "well he was still grieving over all the dead jedi."
Who the heck would say he got shot because he was still grieving over Jedi? Are you sure your not confusing me with someone else S66?
Like I already said, why would Yoda tank a shot he is capable of absorb/deflecting?
Unless you really think Sidious is too fast for Yoda, but I don't think anyone would agree with you there.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Repeating the same arguments over and over isn't helping you, so now you resort to crying "fanboyism!"(lol). stfu with that shit. If you truly believe I'm arguing out of fanboyism then why are you waisting your time arguing with me? There is no convincing a fanboy that he is wrong, right? So why make yourself look stupid by continuing?
You're the one making claims like "Maul was too conflicted to fight whilst Sidious is using his full force powers" and "Sidious only disarms Maul while Maul is on the floor weeping over his brother." You're basically making excuses for why Maul and Savage get the shit stomped out of them by Sidious. But Yeah, the Sidious faboyism is over the top 🙄
Well because your trying to make something a fact that's never been shown. Your trying to tell me Sidious can blitz Maul and Savage in 2 seconds flat. Even though in that passage that doesn't happen.
Anyway I agree with Borbarad. There's no point in discussing this until we see how the fight plays out on Tv. I find it unlikely that Sidious will waste both of them together that badly.
Although Sidious having trained Maul will have a natural advantage over him (kind of like Obi-Wan had against Anakin), and Savage being particularly weak to FL won't really help the duo much either.
As for Maul being conflicted, well according to interviews with Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer everything Maul does in season 5 will be to get back into Sidious's good graces.
And by the way if you read the EU material, even when Maul was Sidious's apprentice, he never once thought about betraying him. And he had nothing but admiration for his master.
So going by the EU and by the interviews I mentioned I personally think it would be silly to think Maul would have zero conflict while being forced to fight off Sidious. And silly to also think Sidious wouldn't have a huge psychological advantage over his former apprentice too.
Originally posted by Nephthys
For what?
His state of mind while fighting perhaps.
I would want to hear something from Lucas or in CW before I believe Mace is only that good against Sidious tbh.
Or at the very least a proper canon explanation. Not just one obscure passage from the ROTS novel.
I mean if that's really what Vapaad does why wasn't it mentioned in Shatterpoint that Vapaad is particularly useful against Darksiders??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
His state of mind while fighting perhaps.I would want to hear something from Lucas or in CW before I believe Mace is only that good against Sidious tbh.
Or at the very least a proper canon explanation. Not just one obscure passage from the ROTS novel.
I mean if that's really what Vapaad does why wasn't it mentioned in Shatterpoint that Vapaad is particularly useful against Darksiders??
How would accepting Sidious' speed and power into himself and letting it blossom out again be a state of mind?
Was he high?
Originally posted by Nai
Where? In the realm of individuals who don't understand prose and take sentences out of context?
Yeah in that realm.
We call it Earth.
But if you want more context, here the rest of the quote:
'Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.'
Seriously this has been commonly accepted for years.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah in that realm.We call it Earth.
But if you want more context, here the rest of the quote:
'Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.'
Seriously this has been commonly accepted for years.
Yes.
That interpretation has been accepted for years, because, apparently, next to nobody here is capable of reading. Which is especially funny in this case, because you did even highlight the important parts.
If the "darkness flowed both ways", then where does it come from and where does it go? What are the properties of a superconductor? And when I say "context" I'm not just thinking about a specific text passage. How about taking the rest of the RotS novel into consideration:
"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light." - Mace Windu, RotS Novelization.
Mace does explain himself what Vaapad does and what he created Vaapad for. And what does he say? That it makes use of the darkness within the user of the technique. This is (utilizing a wider context) the reason why Vaapad included a high risk for its user to lose control and be lost to the Dark Side (as it happened with Sora and Depa).
So it's pretty obvious, that the Darkness comes from inside the user of Vaapad and not from an outside source. Even the passage you've quoted makes that pretty clear, by mentioning it outright: "[...]on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared."
Mace faced his darkness. Not the darkness present in Depa or in Kar Vastor. His darkness. And this is what he used against Sidious, yet, without being affected by it. He uses fury - as does Sidious - but without being affected by it, to match the Sith Lords speed. He utilizes the same power source as "the shadow", but in much different way. Hence the Darkness flows "both ways" not only from Sidious to Mace but also FROM MACE to Sidious. This is why Mace is one part of a superconducting loop. A superconductor does offer no resistance to a current of (electrical) energy flowing through it. Neither does Mace tapping into the darkness - his darkness.
But Mace doesn't use Sidious dark side powers to gain strength. He uses his own dark emotions as he tells Obi-Wan himself. So no. Vaapad isn't a dark side siphoning power, its a "state of mind" (also mentioned by the RotS novel), that allows Mace to utilize his own anger, fury, joy of battle and "turn it into a weapon for the light". And that's it.
Originally posted by Nai
Arguing about a yet unreleased source appears to be pretty pointless, don't you think so? We have seen in another source, that Sidious was "barely able" to deflect Maul's attacks, when the younger Sith Lord was jumping at him in a surge of anger. So it would be utterly ridiculous for Sidious, to assume that Maul or his magically enhanced brother (tougher, physically stronger, perhaps stronger in the force) would pose no threat to him - especially when he has to deal with them both at once.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Nai
Yes.
That interpretation has been accepted for years, because, apparently, next to nobody here is capable of reading. Which is especially funny in this case, because you did even highlight the important parts.If the "darkness flowed both ways", then where does it come from and where does it go? What are the properties of a superconductor? And when I say "context" I'm not just thinking about a specific text passage. How about taking the rest of the RotS novel into consideration:
"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels [b]my own darkness
into a weapon of the light." - Mace Windu, RotS Novelization.Mace does explain himself what Vaapad does and what he created Vaapad for. And what does he say? That it makes use of the darkness within the user of the technique. This is (utilizing a wider context) the reason why Vaapad included a high risk for its user to lose control and be lost to the Dark Side (as it happened with Sora and Depa).
So it's pretty obvious, that the Darkness comes from inside the user of Vaapad and not from an outside source. Even the passage you've quoted makes that pretty clear, by mentioning it outright: "[...]on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared."
Mace faced his darkness. Not the darkness present in Depa or in Kar Vastor. His darkness. And this is what he used against Sidious, yet, without being affected by it. He uses fury - as does Sidious - but without being affected by it, to match the Sith Lords speed. He utilizes the same power source as "the shadow", but in much different way. Hence the Darkness flows "both ways" not only from Sidious to Mace but also FROM MACE to Sidious. This is why Mace is one part of a superconducting loop. A superconductor does offer no resistance through a current of (electrical) energy flowing through it. Neither does Mace tapping into the darkness - his darkness.
But Mace doesn't use Sidious dark side powers to gain strength. He uses his own dark emotions as he tells Obi-Wan himself. So no. Vaapad isn't a dark side siphoning power, its a "state of mind" (also mentioned by the RotS novel), that allows Mace to utilize his own anger, fury, joy of battle and "turn it into a weapon for the light". And that's it. [/B]
Heh, yes I'm quite aware that Vaapad also uses the darkness within Mace himself.
Yet it also clearly uses the darkness of his opponent as well. As we see here:
'Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'
The darkness flows both ways. I agree that there no other thing this could mean but that it flows from Sidious and from Mace. But you're wrong that its only Maces fury. If it was why would it even need to loop through Sidious? If Sidious' power and fury plays no part then why would he even factor into this at all. No, he's using Sidious' power as well. This is immediately reinforced by the following line that directly says that he's drawing Sidious' speed, rage and power into himself and reflecting it back at him. Are you just ignoring that sentence?
He reflects Sidious' fury back onto himself. Theres no other way to read that sentence other than the one thats already been accepted.