Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Started by Nai21 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys
Heh, yes I'm quite aware that Vaapad also uses the darkness within Mace himself.

It only uses that power.


Yet it also clearly uses the darkness of his opponent as well. As we see here:

'Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'

And where does it say that Mace uses Sidious power? He lets it pass through which is, as I've said, what a superconductor would do. He "reflects" the power. Does is say, anywhere, that he makes any active use of anything coming from Sidious? Nope. So what you want to be there clearly isn't present.


The darkness flows both ways. I agree that there no other thing this could mean but that it flows from Sidious and from Mace. But you're wrong that its only Maces fury. If it was why would it even need to loop through Sidious? If Sidious' power and fury plays no part then why would he even factor into this at all. No, he's using Sidious' power as well. This is immediately reinforced by the following line that directly says that he's drawing Sidious' speed, rage and power into himself and reflecting it back at him. Are you just ignoring that sentence?

Sidious power is part of the system of the fight in which the two engage. This system is described as "superconducting loop". So there is power inside the system that does just pass through the system in a circle. Where does it say that Mace does use the power of Sidious? Utilizing this ridiculous sort of logic would mean, that Sidious uses the power of Mace, too. This makes no sense at all.

And are you ignoring the sentence? He draws Sidious speed, rage and power and what does he do then? He "reflects" it. Does a mirror benefit from the image it shows? He lets it "fountain out". Does a fountain gain power from the water that flows through it? There is still no mention of Mace making any use of Sidious power. And there is also no mention of the "reflected" power affecting Sidious. In fact, everything said contradicts this interpretation.


He reflects Sidious' fury back onto himself. Theres no other way to read that sentence other than the one thats already been accepted.

See above. And just to add this little detail: The term "shadow" in the sentence in question isn't necessarily a description of Sidious as a person, but is - through-out the source and in context of the fight - also used as a description for the Dark Side itself. Which adds just another possible interpretation favoring my view. Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Nai
And where does it say that Mace uses Sidious power? He lets it pass through which is, as I've said, what a superconductor would do. He "reflects" the power. Does is say, anywhere, that he makes any active use of anything coming from Sidious? Nope.
Uh.

Uh, what?

Clearly, Blax is agreeing with me.

Thats right Nai, uh! You gotta comeback to that motha****a!?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Uh.

What?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Clearly, Blax is agreeing with me.

Thats right Nai, [b]uh! You gotta comeback to that motha****a!? [/B]

I accept your concession. 🙂

I'm just reading something atm. You'll get your reply.

Originally posted by Nai
It [b]only uses that power.[/b]

If only that were true my friend, hohoho!

Originally posted by Nai
And where does it say that Mace uses Sidious power? He lets it pass through which is, as I've said, what a superconductor would do. He "reflects" the power. Does is say, anywhere, that he makes any active use of anything coming from Sidious? Nope. So what you want to be there clearly isn't present.

What, is reflecting something like a blasterbolt not clear enough for you? Is there a way to do that non-damagingly? He's reflecting the fury back at Sidious while drawing it into his own body. And while its in his body, its boosting Windu. Just like a fountain in continously filled with water, so too is Windu continuously filled with darkside energy that he uses to boost himself.

And pray tell, why would it specifically note that he's accepting Sidious' speed into himself if he isn't using it in some way. If it was just power then that might make sense, but speed? How do you loop speed? The text noting a physical attribute clearly indicates that vaapad works on a physical level.

Originally posted by Nai
Sidious power is part of the system of the fight in which the two engage. This system is described as "superconducting loop". So there is power inside the system that does just pass through the system in a circle.

But why would it be in the loop if it does absolutely nothing? For that matter, if what you're saying is correct then what would the point of Vaapad be at all? If all it does is loop power then what good would that do without using it at all? Because by that logic then Windu wouldn't be using his own darkness either. And if he is, then why would he only benefit from his own power despite the fact that both his and Sidious' power are mingling in the superconductive loop.

Your theory makes no sense.

Originally posted by Nai
Where does it say that Mace does use the power of Sidious? Utilizing this ridiculous sort of logic would mean, that Sidious uses the power of Mace, too. This makes no sense at all.

Of course not, Sidious isn't using Vaapad afterall.

Originally posted by Nai
And are you ignoring the sentence? He draws Sidious speed, rage and power and what does he do then? He "reflects" it. Does a mirror benefit from the image it shows?

Does a blasterbolt hurt the person its reflected back at?

Originally posted by Nai
He lets it "fountain out". Does a fountain gain power from the water that flows through it?

You've never heard of fountains using water pressure to work?

Originally posted by Nai
There is still no mention of Mace making any use of Sidious power. And there is also no mention of the "reflected" power affecting Sidious. In fact, everything said contradicts this interpretation.

It doesn't even need to be said. Theres no goddamn point in Vaapad if it doesn't use the darkness from Sidious.

They both add darkness into the loop and Windu draws from that loop. Saying that he would only benefit from his own darkness when both persons darkness makes up the loop is pants-on head retarded.

Originally posted by Nai
See above. And just to add this little detail: The term "shadow" in the sentence in question isn't necessarily a description of Sidious as a person, but is - through-out the source and in context of the fight - also used as a description for the Dark Side itself. Which adds just another possible interpretation favoring my view. Thanks for playing.

Sidious is continuously referred to as the shadow throughout the book and it specifies 'the Sith Lord' early in the quote. GG.

Originally posted by Nai
Yoda was caught off-guard, because he apparently didn't expect the force attack and didn't defend against it in a proper way. And going by the fact that he blocked a similar attack by Sidious during their later duel, what other explanation would there for him failing the first time?

How about you actually read my argument before making an ass out of yourself? I never said Yoda properly blocked the attack. He only puts up one hand to try to block it, so of course it was a failed attempt. My point was that Palpatine's lightning was powerful enough to momentarily knock Yoda unconscious in one short blast. A full powered attack is more than enough to kill Maul.

Originally posted by Nai
Arguing about a yet unreleased source appears to be pretty pointless, don't you think so? We have seen in another source, that Sidious was "barely able" to deflect Maul's attacks, when the younger Sith Lord was jumping at him in a surge of anger. So it would be utterly ridiculous for Sidious, to assume that Maul or his magically enhanced brother (tougher, physically stronger, perhaps stronger in the force) would pose no threat to him - especially when he has to deal with them both at once.

Why would it be ridiculous to assume that, when the printed, yet unreleased, book clearly shows that Sidious utterly dominates them? Are we to assume the that the series is going to be that much different?

Originally posted by Nai
So that you can check the source material for the first time? 😉 The movie overwrites the novel anyway. Have you seen it? Perhaps with the commentary on, to hear how Sidious uses all he can against Mace to kill him which results in his face melting from the lightning being deflected right back at him. This after the Jedi Master has overpowered him in the lightsaber duel. Just asking.

I haven't read the book in years and I no longer have a copy. I'll admit I don't fully understand how vapaad works. I'm not one of the smartest ones here, but neither are you. 😉

I seem to recall that Mace had to sink back into vapaad during Palpatine's lightning attack. I don't see why it would require a state of mind in order to redirect Palpatine's lightning unless it does work as a literal superconductive loop. But again, I don't remember exactly how it worked or how it was said. That's why I'm refraining from that debate.

Originally posted by Nai
And by the way: Comments like "Dooku's lightning[...]pales in comparison to Palpatine's" and "Sidious wasn't putting his all into that fight. That much is clear" reek of fanboyism, especially when handed in without proof. So you shouldn't start crying, if somebody calls you a fanboy - especially not with that username of yours.

Dooku's lightning does pale in comparison. It took him several seconds to knock Ventress unconscious with lightning in a so-called exaggerated cartoon, whereas it took one short blast from Palpatine to knock Yoda unconscious. When has Dooku ever turned monsters into ash with his lightning.

Your hate obsession with Sidious is so great that my username bothers you lol. You put more effort into arguing against Sidious more than I do for him. So if I'm a fanboy then what does that make you? Is there a name for a negative obsession against a character? Majority of your posts on the SW vs forums have more to do with Sidious than any other character. Can you honestly tell me I'm lying? lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I haven't read the book in years and I no longer have a copy. I'll admit I don't fully understand how vapaad works. I'm not one of the smartest ones here, but neither are you. 😉

If you use this site you can download it for free.

Thanks. I have shitty internet, so it'll probably take forever. But I'll give it a try.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How about you actually read my argument before making an ass out of yourself? I never said Yoda properly blocked the attack. He only puts up one hand to try to block it, so of course it was a failed attempt. My point was that Palpatine's lightning was powerful enough to momentarily knock Yoda unconscious in one short blast. A full powered attack is more than enough to kill Maul.

If he didn't properly block it then he wasn't fully ready for the attack.

Maul's "very well trained in ALL the ways of the Sith" according to Dave Filoni. And we already know he's a physical beast.

So I see no reason why one shot of Sidious's Lightning would kill him.

And I think your forgetting he should be able to block it with his Saber anyway.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why would it be ridiculous to assume that, when the printed, yet unreleased, book clearly shows that Sidious utterly dominates them? Are we to assume the that the series is going to be that much different?

Have you seen how different the fights are in the ROTS novel and in the actual movie??

There's no mention in the novel of Count Dooku completely humiliating Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

According to the novel Yoda was also no match for Sidious.

And Obi-Wan didn't need the high ground to beat Anakin. He simply just chopped him up.

So only the end result was the same in all those examples, but the way the fights actually play out on screen make a huge difference in verses threads.

It's not a Mace, or even Vaapad, specific thing. We see others like Scourge and Bane do it as well. However, no one does it as completely as Mace. He doesn't merely feed of it he matches it completely. Hence the statement about him and Sidious being in a never ending fight were it not for shatterpoint.

Anyway, there is no other way to take that quote than that Mace used Sidious's power against him.


No, Scourge and Bane did not demonstrate anything similar. What they demonstrated is feeding on emotions that cause negative effect on their foes. Most common is fear. Other emotions would be doubts, pain, grief and
suffering in general. First of all it is darkside power, while Vaapad is a style and state of mind. Second, Force users cannot feed on fury and anger of others as these emotions don't cause negative effect but empower instead.
Third, Sidious did not experience any emotions that could affect him negatively, anger is very positive emotion for him.

Also, feeding on emotions is not absorbing power either. They get empowered by enjoying suffering and uncertaincy they sense in others. Feeding on emotions of other is another example of improving state of mind by relishing emotions felt by others. Windu in contrary was empowered by relishing the fight.
And yoda was empowered by his determination: "Size matters not. Do it or don't do it at all". Each character has their own way how to focus during combat, how to achieve the right state of mind. In Windu's case it was Vaapad.

How would accepting Sidious' speed and power into himself and letting it blossom out again be a state of mind?

Was he high?


How can it be not state of mind? How can speed be accepted? Sidious did not unleash any powers, he was giving physical attacks.

But why would it be in the loop if it does absolutely nothing? For that matter, if what you're saying is correct then what would the point of Vaapad be at all? If all it does is loop power then what good would that do without using it at all? Because by that logic then Windu wouldn't be using his own darkness either. And if he is, then why would he only benefit from his own power despite the fact that both his and Sidious' power are mingling in the superconductive loop.

Your theory makes no sense.

It doesn't even need to be said. Theres no goddamn point in Vaapad if it doesn't use the darkness from Sidious.

They both add darkness into the loop and Windu draws from that loop. Saying that he would only benefit from his own darkness when both persons darkness makes up the loop is pants-on head retarded.

What you mean what's the point? State of mind is the main driving factor in combat and use of the Force in general. Ganner with the right state of mind slew thousands Vongs in one go, while before it was effort to defeat single one. Jacen with right state of mind became freaking torch!

The purpose of Vaapad is that Windu could utilize his inner darkness into something positive. He got read of his fear of darkside. He did not need to put effort on restraining his inner darkness but embrace it in his unique way instead.

This loop thing happens in Windu's head. Example with lightning deflection proves it.
In reality he catches lightning with lightsaber, deflects it and struggles a lot that nearly gets overpowered, also, it never reached his body.
"angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him"
However, in his head he merges with Vaapad and "Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source."
So how did power that was described as pure dazzling hatered pass into him, if he caught it with lightsaber? This example clearly draws the line between what is in his mentality and what is actually happening.

There is no power transfered between users. The Force is all around and Force users draw on it. And the Force is driven by emotions, how good they can draw on it depends on their state of mind, which Vaapad is. Windu gets empowered by relishing the fight, not by others.

Does a blasterbolt hurt the person its reflected back at?

To deflect blaster bolt, user needs to counter the bolts kinetic energy with his own strength. Lightsaber strike strength can be blocked only with strength of opponent. Indeed you can use strength of opponent against him, however, it falls under boundaries of combat styles and various techniques, irrelevant to Force powers. And Vaapad is a style on first place, so, if Windu for real used Sidious' strength against him, it shows his lightsaber skill, not the ability to get empowered by opponent's fury.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he didn't properly block it then he wasn't fully ready for the attack.

No, it doesn't. It simply means he did not realize how powerful the attack was. A failed attempt to block an attack does not automatically = caught by surprise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul's "very well trained in ALL the ways of the Sith" according to Dave Filoni. And we already know he's a physical beast.

Maul was never shown to be a practitioner of force lightning, so we shouldn't assume he can absorb it with his hands.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I see no reason why one shot of Sidious's Lightning would kill him.

I do. A single short blast was enough to KO Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I think your forgetting he should be able to block it with his Saber anyway.

Kinda like he blocked a lightning attack from a nightsister, right?

Besides, as I said before, Sidious lightning is strong enough to rip Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands. And you still haven't proved that Maul is stronger than a force inhanced Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Have you seen how different the fights are in the ROTS novel and in the actual movie??

That's different. Many elements of the ROTS novel were retconned by the movie. The series has yet to do that. I'm not going to assume Maul and Savage are going to give Sidious hell in the series when the book shows us that Sidious utterly dominates that fight.

If you rather wait for the series to come out before arguing about the fight, then I'm alright with that. But don't make up unsupported claims for why you believe Maul and Savage get dominated in the book just because you don't like the outcome.

As for your other post, I didn't respond to it because I've already addressed all those points, and I don't feel like going in circles over it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Kinda like he blocked a lightning attack from a nightsister, right?

So what you think AOTC Obi-Wan is better with the force than Maul?

So much for being very well trained in all the ways of the Sith.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, as I said before, Sidious lightning is strong enough to rip Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands. And you still haven't proved that Maul is stronger than a force inhanced Yoda.

Well it wasn't strong enough to blow Mace's weapon out of his hand.

And when the heck did I say Maul is stronger than a Force enhanced Yoda??

You have a habit of twisting arguments like this.

I said Maul is "physically" stronger than Yoda, as is Mace Windu.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

That's different. Many elements of the ROTS novel were retconned by the movie. The series has yet to do that.

The TV episode will be the canon version of events. Just like the ROTS movie was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not going to assume Maul and Savage are going to give Sidious hell in the series when the book shows us that Sidious utterly dominates that fight.

Yet your willing to assume Sidious can kill Maul and Savage in 2 seconds even though the book shows nothing off the sort.

Your not willing to accept Maul is conflicted fighting Sidious even though the book, eu and all related material suggests he would be.

So you seem to be absolutely fine in making assumptions when it's convenient to your Pro-Sidious stance but attack me for making more evidencial based ones.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But don't make up unsupported claims for why you believe Maul and Savage get dominated in the book just because you don't like the outcome.

But again it's Ok for you to make the claim that Sidious can take Maul and Savage out in 2 seconds even though that wasn't shown. Bias much??

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for your other post, I didn't respond to it because I've already addressed all those points, and I don't feel like going in circles over it.

Your right we are going round in circles. And I am getting tired of the biased arguments, completely unfounded assumptions and hypocritical accusations.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, is reflecting something like a blasterbolt not clear enough for you? Is there a way to do that non-damagingly?

Can it be, that you still ignore the entirety of the context? Since the author has ensured to compare Mace and Sidious to a "superconducting loop" it's pretty obvious that there is no damage done to anybody here, as energy simply flows through a superconductor. And yet, I still don't see the slightest hint for Mace draining power from Sidious to use it to boost his skills. Because "reflecting" doesn't mean "absorb and transform".


He's reflecting the fury back at Sidious while drawing it into his own body. And while its in his body, its boosting Windu. Just like a fountain in continously filled with water, so too is Windu continuously filled with darkside energy that he uses to boost himself.

Where does it say anything about Mace using the fury to boost himself?
Again: A superconductor doesn't use energy - the energy flows through. There is nothing in the source that says Mace does use any of the energy flowing through him. He draws it in and lets it fountain out again. Would he use it, he would consume it. Is there any water lost in a fountain or does it simple flow through again and again without being consumed? Understanding metaphors is such a useful skill when trying to interprete texts. 🙄


And pray tell, why would it specifically note that he's accepting Sidious' speed into himself if he isn't using it in some way. If it was just power then that might make sense, but speed? How do you loop speed? The text noting a physical attribute clearly indicates that vaapad works on a physical level.

Excuse me. That's clearly not what the text says:

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

He's accepting the speed. What he "draws in" are the rage and the fury. What are "rage" and "fury" in context of a Dark Side using opponent? 😉


But why would it be in the loop if it does absolutely nothing? For that matter, if what you're saying is correct then what would the point of Vaapad be at all? If all it does is loop power then what good would that do without using it at all? Because by that logic then Windu wouldn't be using his own darkness either. And if he is, then why would he only benefit from his own power despite the fact that both his and Sidious' power are mingling in the superconductive loop. Your theory makes no sense.

The point of Vaapad is, that Mace can utilize the Dark Side in order to combat it. Without Vaapad, Mace would be forced to rely on the usual skills of a Jedi - much like Yoda later. And what does Yoda realize when fighting Sidious?

"The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?" - RotS novel.

Mace is capable of defeating Sidious, because he utilizes the same "source" of strength that Sidious is tapping into. And that's the only way to defeat Sidious, hence Yoda being incapable of doing so. When we finally see him fall (in RotJ) he is also taken out by one of his own kind, with emotions (the love for Luke) forcing Vader to turn against his master. Context.


Of course not, Sidious isn't using Vaapad afterall.

And Mace is still not draining / using energy not coming from within him.


Does a blasterbolt hurt the person its reflected back at?

Did you forget the part of the "superconducting loop"? The energy reflected would be reflected back again by Sidious, then again by Mace, then again by Sidious...and so forth.


You've never heard of fountains using water pressure to work?

Is the water consumed by the fountain or does it just flow through it?


It doesn't even need to be said. Theres no goddamn point in Vaapad if it doesn't use the darkness from Sidious.

See above.


They both add darkness into the loop and Windu draws from that loop. Saying that he would only benefit from his own darkness when both persons darkness makes up the loop is pants-on head retarded.

Where does it say that Windu draws anything from that loop? It says that the energy passes through him - like water through a fountain. The opponents are descriped as "superconducters", with the sole defining characteristic of a superconductor being, that energy simply flows through it unhindered. So where do you take the notion from, that Windu does take or use energy from that loop? There is nothing even hinting that, and the choice of words indicates the exact opposite: the power simply circles between the opponents.

And there is still more:

"The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening. Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force thoughsome poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here."

Anakin, observing the fight from the outside, perceives both opponents at wielding the Dark Side, specifically noticing, that Windu - despite being a Jedi Master - fought without the restraint typical for a Jedi. Another point for the usefulness of Vaapad even without "siphoning energy".


Sidious is continuously referred to as the shadow throughout the book and it specifies 'the Sith Lord' early in the quote. GG.

Yes. Unfortunately for you, there is also this:

"The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness."

Sidious is declared to be the Darkness and vice versa. So when Mace draws in something belonging to "the shadow" - is it something that belongs to Sidious as a seperate entity, or does Stover speak about the Dark Side here? Context is so much fun when not ignored.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How about you actually read my argument before making an ass out of yourself? I never said Yoda properly blocked the attack. He only puts up one hand to try to block it, so of course it was a failed attempt. My point was that Palpatine's lightning was powerful enough to momentarily knock Yoda unconscious in one short blast. A full powered attack is more than enough to kill Maul.

Yoda does not put his hands up and tries to block it. He doesn't drop his cane, he looks more worried about shielding his eyes than about performing an elaborate defense against the Force Lightning. Holy shit. Why would Yoda even try to block such an attack and not use everything he can in order to do so? This would be the prerequisite for your reasoning.

And how do you, from there, reach the conclusion that one blast of it would kill Maul? You're not only talking about a highly trained Sith Apprentice, according to Gideon's Essay one of the "best trained ever". You're also talking about the guy that we saw walk straigth through Force Lightning from a nightsister and doing this completely unharmed. While, of course, I don't think that the attack Mighella used against Maul is anywhere close to Sidious lightning, it demonstrates that Maul is capable of defending himself against that power. Even more so, as long as he holds a lightsaber in hand - which was enough to let Obi-Wan block lightning from Dooku, with the Sith Lords being head and shoulders above Kenobi in terms of force mastery and power.


Why would it be ridiculous to assume that, when the printed, yet unreleased, book clearly shows that Sidious utterly dominates them? Are we to assume the that the series is going to be that much different?

If the entirety of the printed yet unleased book and the scene in question would find its way into my hands, I could tell, if certain people did interprete it correctly or performed the same logical stunts with it, they did perform with other source materials discussed here. And, I'm very sorry that I have to tell you, but usually printed SW works and there on-screen versions do show a lot of discrepancies - the RotS novel being one such example.


I'm not one of the smartest ones here, but neither are you. 😉

Provided that I've been named one of the best debaters around here by folks clearly not my greatest fans (read: Lightsnake, Gideon), while I don't even post here in my primary language, could tell you, that I'm a rather clever person.


I seem to recall that Mace had to sink back into vapaad during Palpatine's lightning attack. I don't see why it would require a state of mind in order to redirect Palpatine's lightning unless it does work as a literal superconductive loop. But again, I don't remember exactly how it worked or how it was said. That's why I'm refraining from that debate.

You are correct. However:
[i]"Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slipback into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him."

Emphasis mine. And another sentence that supports my view.


Dooku's lightning does pale in comparison. It took him several seconds to knock Ventress unconscious with lightning in a so-called exaggerated cartoon, whereas it took one short blast from Palpatine to knock Yoda unconscious. When has Dooku ever turned monsters into ash with his lightning.

Dooku blasted chunks out of a permacrete ceiling, with one handed lightning deflected twice (first by Yoda, then by himself). The field record of victims of Dooku's lightning (Sora Bulq, Ventress, Savage Opress etc.) is nothing to scoff at exactly. And what monster did Sidious reduce to ash? The worm in "Sithisis"? I'm afraid, but the release of this comic in the "Star Wars: Visionaries", including clearly non-canon material, makes it status of canon debateable.

Your hate obsession with Sidious is so great that my username bothers you lol.

What bothers me, is that you walk around with your pants on your head (here: giving you that user name) to complain about people calling you nuts after doing so (here: people saying you must be a fanboy). It's not exactly uncalled for, is it?


You put more effort into arguing against Sidious more than I do for him. So if I'm a fanboy then what does that make you? Is there a name for a negative obsession against a character? Majority of your posts on the SW vs forums have more to do with Sidious than any other character. Can you honestly tell me I'm lying? lol

I don't hold a grudge against Sidious as a character. He's one of the more interesting fellows in the Star Wars mythos. I simple don't like it, when people either tailor arguments together by ignoring parts of the source material completely or missinterprete source to an extend where it hurts.

Originally posted by Nai
Yoda does not put his hands up and tries to block it. He doesn't drop his cane, he looks more worried about shielding his eyes than about performing an elaborate defense against the Force Lightning. Holy shit. Why would Yoda even try to block such an attack and not use everything he can in order to do so? This would be the prerequisite for your reasoning.

And why would Yoda try to go up against a sith lord and not expect an attack? I can ask questions too.

But that's beside the point. Yoda failed to block the attack and was left unconscious. The same would most likely happen to Maul, who has never shown to be able to absorb lightning.

Originally posted by Nai
And how do you, from there, reach the conclusion that one blast of it would kill Maul? You're not only talking about a highly trained Sith Apprentice, according to Gideon's Essay one of the "best trained ever". You're also talking about the guy that we saw walk straigth through Force Lightning from a nightsister and doing this completely unharmed. While, of course, I don't think that the attack Mighella used against Maul is anywhere close to Sidious lightning, it demonstrates that Maul is capable of defending himself against that power.

First of all, Maul did not walk through her lightning, he was dropped on his knees by her lightning, then suddenly gained strength by feeding off of the pain (most likely). Maul's power in the force was likely far superior to hers. The same can't be said about Palpatine, whose strength and mastery in the force surpasses Maul's by a long shot. So the comparison is just plain stupid.

Originally posted by Nai
Even more so, as long as he holds a lightsaber in hand - which was enough to let Obi-Wan block lightning from Dooku, with the Sith Lords being head and shoulders above Kenobi in terms of force mastery and power.

Are you forgetting that Palpatine ripped Yoda's saber out of his hands.

Originally posted by Nai
If the entirety of the printed yet unleased book and the scene in question would find its way into my hands, I could tell, if certain people did interprete it correctly or performed the same logical stunts with it, they did perform with other source materials discussed here. And, I'm very sorry that I have to tell you, but usually printed SW works and there on-screen versions do show a lot of discrepancies - the RotS novel being one such example.

mmkay, I understand that, but the series hasn't aired yet, so I'm not going to assume that Maul and Savage are going to give Sidious any more of a challenge just because DP doesn't like the outcome of the book. The book is basically what we were debating about anyway.

Originally posted by Nai
Provided that I've been named one of the best debaters around here by folks clearly not my greatest fans (read: Lightsnake, Gideon), while I don't even post here in my primary language, could tell you, that I'm a rather clever person.

Really, now? 😂

And I have issues, right?

Originally posted by Nai
Dooku blasted chunks out of a permacrete ceiling, with one handed lightning deflected twice (first by Yoda, then by himself). The field record of victims of Dooku's lightning (Sora Bulq, Ventress, Savage Opress etc.) is nothing to scoff at exactly. And what monster did Sidious reduce to ash? The worm in "Sithisis"? I'm afraid, but the release of this comic in the "Star Wars: Visionaries", including clearly non-canon material, makes it status of canon debateable.

The events of Sithisis is referenced in The Ultimate Visual Guide. You were willing to accept it as canon when you claimed Sidious needed the sithisis ritual to cloud jedi vision, but now that the comic works against your argument, it's no longer canon.

I'm done debating this with you. Like I said you have an negative obsession with Sidious.

Originally posted by Nai
What bothers me, is that you walk around with your pants on your head (here: giving you that user name) to complain about people calling you nuts after doing so (here: people saying you must be a fanboy). It's not exactly uncalled for, is it?

If you feel that way then don't waste your time debating with me. It's that simple. Or do you just crave attention that badly? Probably

I recall a time when Gideon had you on ignore and you followed him around in every thread, writing long ass replies to all his posts, trying to get him to engage you in your anti Sidious fetish. I would never stoop that low over a charcter, especially not one I hate. So before you try to dog me out over my user name, you need to go back and review your own actions

Originally posted by Nai
I don't hold a grudge against Sidious as a character. He's one of the more interesting fellows in the Star Wars mythos.

Uh huh, right

Originally posted by Nai
I simple don't like it, when people either tailor arguments together by ignoring parts of the source material completely or missinterprete source to an extend where it hurts.

This only applies to the Sidious arguments, right?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
mmkay, I understand that, but the series hasn't aired yet, so I'm not going to assume that Maul and Savage are going to give Sidious any more of a challenge just because DP doesn't like the outcome of the book. The book is basically what we were debating about anyway.

But your perfectly willing to assume that Sidious can take Maul and Savage in 2 seconds, or with one blast of the Force even though that never happened in the book.

Don't be hypocritical.

You also still ignore the fact he specifically decides to use 2 Sabers to take on these 2.

Have you ever noticed how Ventress can take on both Obi-Wan and Anakin with 2 Sabers. Even though individually she's barely a match for either 1 of them??

There's also a scene from the trailer that shows Obi-Wan wielding 2 Sabers. That could be how he takes on Savage and Maul together, even though he usually struggles with each one individually.

It seems in SW sword fights wielding 2 Sabers helps nullify the opponents advantage of superior numbers.

Well no shit. Of course having 2 sabers lets you more easily block two people at once. That's just common sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well no shit. Of course having 2 sabers lets you more easily block two people at once. That's just common sense.

Calm down. I was responding to S66 who was claiming even with a single Saber Sidious can take out Maul and Savage together in 2 seconds.