Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So your A>B>C argument has no basis whatsoever. If you tried opening up your mind for a second you might see that.

You're the only one using ABC logic. You assume that because Savage has the advantages of physical strength and force power over most jedi that he can provide more of a challenge for Sidious than they can. Well guess what? You're logic is screwed up. Those same advantages he has over the majority of the jedi are not advantages he has over Sidious. And just because he can react to the speed of someone like Obi Wan or Ventress does not mean he is as fast or as skilled as they are. Clearly he's not.

Savage couldn't even properly block blasters with his saber, but yet the three jedi Sidious blitzed can do it easy. Hell, Tiin can block dozens at once while carrying someone over his shoulder, but yet couldn't even react to Sidious's speed. So you tell me why Sidious couldn't have blitzed Savage had he wanted to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah in your head.

That's not what happened in the novel, but that won't stop your imagination playing it out completely differently.

Yes, because Sidious didn't means that he couldn't.

Again: you're an idiot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then your really surprised when people say your being a fanboy??!

Who said I was surprised?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL I don't need assurance. I've read all the Maul novels. I've read most his eu stuff. I've got a statement from Dave Filoni saying he's "Very well trained in all the ways of the Sith.."

LMAO... What does "very well trained in all the ways of the Sith" suppose to mean?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again with the lame A>B>C. Which one of those 3 has ever been shown fast or powerful enough to beat the crud out of Ventress, or Obi-Wan, or fight off Obi-Wan and Anakin together?

Read above, idiot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seriously this is all your arguments have come down to. I could point your the same kid who couldn't add up just a couple of years back, but I'm not going to stoop down to your level.

That made no damn sense, but ok.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to win the argument, then try actually winning it instead of resorting to petty shit like this.

You're complaining about me talking shit? You're the one who started calling me a fanboy just because you couldn't (and still can't) provide a decent argument.

It doesn't surprise me though. At least this time your not crying to REXXX.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only reason Sidious had the chance to kill Maul, was because Maul starts the fight surrendering to Sidious.

The fight started when Sidious sent Maul and Savage flying across the room.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And you wonder why people call you biased?!

No, I actually know why.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No the fact that he didn't force push Obi-Wan off the ledge WHILE SMILING. THINK Sometimes. It's good for you kid!

Oh, ok. My last post was a rushed one so I didn't read or address some of your points properly.

But yeah, Obi Wan was already seemingly defeated so Maul was teasing him for a bit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When has Mace blitzed 3 Swordmasters in seconds?? Oh never? Oh so I guess Sidious can blitz Mace too right??

Gosh, you're lost. That wasn't my argument. Go back and read it again.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said THINK SOMETIMES. It's good for you kid!

It's not good for you or what? How come you don't do it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah who's really out for the kill? And who started the fight on his knees? Just because Maul attacked to defend himself doesn't suddenly mean he's dumped all his motivations and completely changed his end goal in a split second.

You know realistically you can't do that without still being pretty conflicted. Whilst there was not holding back, or conflicted interests in Sidious at all. Not one bit.

Oh, yes you can. Shit like that happens all the time in real life. It's just like in a relationship. A girl could be madly in love with her boyfriend or husband, and the minute he tells her he wants a break or a divorce from her, she goes crazy. It can take a second for rage to take over your mind (depending on the person).

All that Maul has done in TCW was probably a desperate last attempt to win Sidious back. The anger towards Sidious was already there. And when Sidious denies Maul, it pushes him over the edge. And as I said, Maul has tried to kill Sidious before.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I agree with you that I'm repeating myself. But it's because you ignore the arguments given and jump to something else. You have to actually TACKLE my argument to call them "defeated."

This just proves that you haven't been reading my replies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You mean the time he almost bested Sidious?? And yet you continue to believe Sidious can blitz him. Thanks for providing EVEN MORE more proof towards my argument 🙂

I mean the time when Sidious was testing Maul, and not trying to kill him. I also believe that fight is written through Maul's perspective. If you want to assume Maul was better then than he was during TCW then go ahead, but you'd be dumb to. Him and Savage together were easily defeated by Sidious, so there is no way Maul can almost best Sidious by himself.

So you can save the thanks 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He doesn't have to be better than all 3 of them not to get blitzed. He just has to be faster than ANY ONE of them.

Once again: I agree that Maul is faster than any one of them. But you do realize that Sidious's attention was divided among four master swordsman, right? The first two couldn't even react to Sidious' speed. He attacked Kolar before he attacked Tiin, and that still did not give Tiin enough time to react. Sidious force speed is so far beyond Maul's.

And I already told you that I believe Maul could last a bit longer than them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes the evidence based "shit" I state, like Sidious went all out wielding 2 frigging Lightsabers to tackle these 2 beasts (plus used full on Force attacks).

And every time I've asked you WHY did he need to pull out 2 frigging Lightsabers, you just go quiet. A bit strange coming from a guy whose supposedly "defeated" my argument.

Maybe he took two lightsabers because he was going in the middle of a war zone, and since he had both, he used both. Or it could have been to show Maul and Savage that he only needs one arm for each to hold off their strength. You know, to prove that he's stronger. IDK, I'm not Sidious, so I couldn't tell ya.

And what "full force attacks" was Sidious using? He used one force push on Maul during the actual duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well why would someone need to insult me if I'm losing the argument??

Are you that forgetful? You don't remember insulting me first? I actually tried being civil with you. You were doing so good until you found out about Maul and Savage getting their shit stomped in. lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not even going to count how many times you've insulted me in your last post S66

Yeah, go cry to the mods again

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'M DONE DEBATING YOU.

I did say I was done debating with you. But hey, I'm bored. But I think this is my last reply.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the only one using ABC logic.

No I've not used A>B>C. I've gone by what actually HAPPENED in the fight. He clearly wasn't taken out in 2 seconds.

You've COMPLETELY IGNORED THAT. And then gone on a A>B>C speculative rant of why he MUST have just been playing.

My A>B>C was a response to yours to show you how it can work the other way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO... What does "very well trained in all the ways of the Sith" suppose to mean?

HAHAHA What do you think? You think it means he's some amateur??

He actually also said " He a very dangerous threat".. I suppose that means it might take Sidious an extra second to Blitz him right? Lulz

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't surprise me though. At least this time your not crying to REXXX.

Well moderators are there to report to when things are getting a bit out of hand arn't they? I didn't even report you so don't know what's stuck up your ass this week.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
All that Maul has done in TCW was probably a desperate last attempt to win Sidious back. The anger towards Sidious was already there. And when Sidious denies Maul, it pushes him over the edge. And as I said, Maul has tried to kill Sidious before.

No your wrong again. According to Dave Filoni He WASN'T Angry at Sidious at all. Even though he should have been. He's a Sith so his anger is misplaced towards the wrong people like Obi-Wan and the Jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Once again: I agree that Maul is faster than any one of them. But you do realize that Sidious's attention was divided among four master swordsman, right? The first two couldn't even react to Sidious' speed. He attacked Kolar before he attacked Tiin, and that still did not give Tiin enough time to react. Sidious force speed is so far beyond Maul's.

Doesn't mean Maul can't fight him off. Yoda's speed is way beyond Dooku's. So what? Doesn't mean he can't put up a fight, or Blitz lower Jedi on the level Yoda could.

Could Mace blitz those 3 Jedi? Who knows. Maybe or maybe not. But even though he's not got that feat he still defeated Sidious.

This is what your limited thinking fails to grasp.

And if you actually read all the material on Maul, you would know how incredibly fast he is, and you wouldn't keep bringing up this point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe he took two lightsabers because he was going in the middle of a war zone, and since he had both, he used both. Or it could have been to show Maul and Savage that he only needs one arm for each to hold off their strength. You know, to prove that he's stronger. IDK, I'm not Sidious, so I couldn't tell ya.

Oh geez, and then you'll complain that I insulted you first by throwing out the word "fanboy".. How can I Not say Fanboy when you come out with crap like this..

Stop making excuses! He didn't enter the war zone on foot. The preview scene clearly shows his shuttle going right to the cave (presumably the base where Maul and Savage were). He then takes out all the mandalorian guards without even taking out 1 Lightsaber, forget 2.

And you do realize Ventress has also taken on Obi-Wan and Anakin together with 2 Sabers. Taking on each of them with One Hand each right!

Clearly in SW CW using 2 Sabers just seems to even the odds of dealing with 2 Sword wielding opponents.

He only took out the 2 Sabers to fight off Maul and Opress so he obviously felt he needed 2 Sabers, and needed to go all out in to destroy them both simultaneously.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I did say I was done debating with you. But hey, I'm bored. But I think this is my last reply.

Of course it will be. You can't actually stick to the topic off debate, and instead go off on a rant " arrrgghjhhh your an IDIOT... arrrgghhhh i remember the time you complained to the Mod You CRY BABY... Arrrggghhhh You can't debate... Arrrggghhh!"

Lulz

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
My A>B>C was a response to yours to show you how it can work the other way.

Let me explain something DP. If you want to call my logic ABC logic, well at least it works. If Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar each have greater reflexes and speed than Savage, but were unable to stop Sidious from blitzing them, how the hell do you assume Savage can?

Let's say Kit and Savage were to ever fight. Yes, I believe Savage can likely take Kit Fisto. Kit Fisto is more skilled and faster than Savage, but Savage is still fast enough to react to Fisto's speed. Savage would ONLY win because of his overwhelming physical strength and force power. However, in a fight with Darth Sidious none of Savage's advantages over Kit would apply with Sidious, since Sidious can handle Savage's strength and is more powerful than him. Savage's strength and power would not even come into play if Sidious chose to blitz him. There is nothing Savage can do to stop Sidious.

So stop lecturing on ABC logic, because you sound idiotic when you do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well moderators are there to report to when things are getting a bit out of hand arn't they?

So you think you can insult someone and not get insulted back?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No your wrong again. According to Dave Filoni He WASN'T Angry at Sidious at all. Even though he should have been. He's a Sith so his anger is misplaced towards the wrong people like Obi-Wan and the Jedi.

Source, and full quote from Dave, please.

It's only natural that Maul would be angry that Sidious replaced him with a new apprentice. However, he still had hope in getting back in Sidious's good graces. But that hope was crushed when Sidious denied him and threw him across the room. You also keep ignoring the fact that Maul has already tried to kill Sidious over a threat of replacement. So tell me the difference now. Did Maul get softer or what?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And if you actually read all the material on Maul, you would know how incredibly fast he is, and you wouldn't keep bringing up this point.

Nothing Maul has done puts him anywhere near Sidious's level of speed. Maul in my opinion is faster and more skilled than any one of the three masters Sidious blitzed. However, he wouldn't be able to take on those three masters by himself, whereas Sidious blitzed them while they were fighting alongside Windu. This single feat puts Sidious far above Maul's league.

Now am I saying Sidious can blitz Maul in two seconds? No. I'm saying Sidious could have ended that fight a lot sooner had he wanted to. Go back and read the passage Gideon posted. When Sidious attacked Maul the second time, after he had just killed Savage, you will notice that Sidious was gradually getting faster and faster until he finally disarmed Maul. That is proof that Sidious chose not utilize his force speed right away. During his fight with Mace and team B, he utilized it instantly, so we know that it does not require him any time at all.

As far as Sidious deciding to use two sabers, that doesn't mean that he needed to. And as for him using his "full" force powers, well he didn't. Not even close. One force push during the actual duel does not = his full force powers.

And you call me a fanboy 🙄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Let me explain something DP. If you want to call my logic ABC logic, well at least it works. If Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar each have greater reflexes and speed than Savage, but were unable to stop Sidious from blitzing them, how the hell do you assume Savage can?

Your using A>B>C which goes Sidious>speed blitz> Fisto >faster> Savage, therefore Sidious>speed blitz> Savage. Which in theory works. Except for one problem.

Savage has already lasted longer than 2 seconds against Sidious.

A fact your ignoring and applying your assumed A>B>C anyway. Your just assuming Fisto is faster than Savage for no apparent reason.

Your forgetting even before Savage's Nightsister amp, he was going toe to toe with Ventress in anarmed combat moving incredibly fast with a lot of mobility.

Your forgetting without any training he killed a Jedi Master. This was without a Lightsaber, and the Master could not hit him even once with his Saber before Savage disarmed and killed him.

Your forgetting how he was fast enough to maneuver around Ventress mid-saber fight to hit her from behind.

And so on and so forth..

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Let's say Kit and Savage were to ever fight. Yes, I believe Savage can likely take Kit Fisto. Kit Fisto is more skilled and faster than Savage, but Savage is still fast enough to react to Fisto's speed. Savage would ONLY win because of his overwhelming physical strength and force power. However, in a fight with Darth Sidious none of Savage's advantages over Kit would apply with Sidious, since Sidious can handle Savage's strength and is more powerful than him. Savage's strength and power would not even come into play if Sidious chose to blitz him. There is nothing Savage can do to stop Sidious.

Yes I understand your argument. And it would make sense if:

1. We had undeniable proof that Fisto was faster than Savage and
2. We hadn't already had a canon account of Savage lasting much longer against Sidious than Fisto did.

But under the circumstances it seems like your denying the evidence already given in favor of your own Assumed speed related A>B>C
argument.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So stop lecturing on ABC logic, because you sound idiotic when you do.

Aw and you were doing so well. You were just starting to sound like you were making a thought out mature argument, but then you had to go and ruin it with this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So you think you can insult someone and not get insulted back?

I didn't insult you first. Unless your still holding a grudge against me from 2 years back, in which case all I will say is Kid Move On.

As for the moderator thing that was getting out of hand that time. It was like 5 different people attacking me because they didn't like my arguments. And Rex read it and agreed it was getting out of hand which is why he closed the thread.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Source, and full quote from Dave, please.

It was his yearly End of Season Force cast interview at the end of Season 4. One of Gideon's socks put it up here a few months back. I'll see if I can find it. It was also mentioned by Sam Witwer. But yeah he wasn't blaming Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Now am I saying Sidious can blitz Maul in two seconds? No. I'm saying Sidious could have ended that fight a lot sooner had he wanted to. Go back and read the passage Gideon posted. When Sidious attacked Maul the second time, after he had just killed Savage, you will notice that Sidious was gradually getting faster and faster until he finally disarmed Maul. That is proof that Sidious chose not utilize his force speed right away.

The passage specifically states Sidious starting moving faster than before??

If that's what your basing this on then fine. I'll accept you have a basis for your opinion (but it's still just your opinion, not by any means proof).

But I would avoid looking too much into details like that. Novel's are Never That Accurate when describing a fight scenario shown on screen. Heck even the TFU game, novel and comic version of the fight with Sidious are all different. Only the outcome remained the same.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As far as Sidious deciding to use two sabers, that doesn't mean that he needed to.

The implication there is clear. He's taking on 2 monster opponents, and draws out 2 Sabers to get the job done. Making up any other reason for him doing so is just that.. Making things up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And as for him using his "full" force powers, well he didn't. Not even close. One force push during the actual duel does not = his full force powers.

It's not easy mid-saber fight to add in force attacks, especially while fighting off 2 opponents. But the point is He Did use them. As well as using 2 Sabers. That's fact.

Anyway like I've stated above, there's no point getting into details like it was "1 TK attack not 2".

They will be different. And to make such huge assumptions out of those kind of details is just completely jumping the gun.

Facts are Sidious will fight them, he will draw out 2 Sabers, and he will tool them (but not in 2 seconds Lol). He will almost certainly use Force attacks as well. But everything else, the details, will almost certainly be different. They always are.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you call me a fanboy 🙄

Yes I'm a fanboy for saying Savage lasts 30 seconds and Maul lasts a minute against an all out Sidious. Lol.

The Dave Filoni Interview for you:

http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

I've not heard it in a while, but I'm almost certain it's this interview where he says Maul isn't angry at Sidious (even though he should be).

This is also where he says "Savage is a very Poorly trained sith. He's just all Rage and Power like the Hulk."

And Maul is "A dangerous threat. He's been well trained in all the ways of the Sith."

I think Sidious having two lightsabers is not as much to do with fight difficulty as to show where da heck he got second lightsaber to fight Yoda.

As for Maul I don't believe that he could ever show his best performance, when fighting Sidious. When he fought Qui-Gon and Kenobi, his dominant emotion was anger. But whenever he fights Sidious, his dominant emotion is fear and it is sort of emotion that tends to give very negative performance.

Originally posted by Arhael
I think Sidious having two lightsabers is not as much to do with fight difficulty as to show where da heck he got second lightsaber to fight Yoda.

I doubt it. He's fighting 2 deadly opponents so has gone Jar Kai to fight them. I think that's self-explanatory.

Originally posted by Arhael
As for Maul I don't believe that he could ever show his best performance, when fighting Sidious. When he fought Qui-Gon and Kenobi, his dominant emotion was anger. But whenever he fights Sidious, his dominant emotion is fear and it is sort of emotion that tends to give very negative performance.

Yes. Sidious has a huge psychological advantage over Maul. Maul doesn't even want to fight him. And he's always been in too much awe over Sidious's power, which he feels again in this fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your using A>B>C which goes Sidious>speed blitz> Fisto >faster> Savage, therefore Sidious>speed blitz> Savage. Which in theory works. Except for one problem.

Savage has already lasted longer than 2 seconds against Sidious.

A fact your ignoring and applying your assumed A>B>C anyway. Your just assuming Fisto is faster than Savage for no apparent reason.

I've already proven Kit's superiority in speed, skill, and reflexes. Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar are refered to as "celebrated swordsmasters" (The complete Visual Dictionary), Mace and Shaak Ti call them four of the orders greatest, and Obi Wan and Yoda also seem to hold them in high esteem. I'm pretty sure they have those reputations for a reason. Their speed and reflexes allows them to easily fend off a bunch of blaster bolts at once (Tiin can do this while carrying someone over his shoulder), whereas Savage couldn't. Kit Fisto himself has outdueled Grievous, who is a master of all 7 forms and can strike 20 times per second. Based on accolades and feats, it's safe to put these three ahead of Savage in skill, reflex, and swordsmanship.

And again, stop lecturing on ABC logic, because clearly you don't know when it works and when it fails. My ABC argument works, whereas yours fails.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your forgetting even before Savage's Nightsister amp, he was going toe to toe with Ventress in anarmed combat moving incredibly fast with a lot of mobility.

Your forgetting without any training he killed a Jedi Master. This was without a Lightsaber, and the Master could not hit him even once with his Saber before Savage disarmed and killed him.

And? Neither of them are anywhere near as fast as Sidious. And just because he can react to their speed, does not mean he can react to Sidious's full speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage lasting much longer against Sidious than Fisto did.

As I have already pointed out, there is proof Sidious did not utilize his speed to it's fullest right away.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I didn't insult you first. Unless your still holding a grudge against me from 2 years back, in which case all I will say is Kid Move On.

You did insult me first, when you called me a fanboy. Which, BTW, you have absolutely no room to talk. You have a history of talking shit, and then crying when someone talks shit back to you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The passage specifically states Sidious starting moving faster than before??

Yes, which means Sidious wasn't utilizing his force speed to it's fullest right away. And we know it doesn't require Sidious any time to do it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If that's what your basing this on then fine. I'll accept you have a basis for your opinion (but it's still just your opinion, not by any means proof).

But I would avoid looking too much into details like that. Novel's are Never That Accurate when describing a fight scenario shown on screen. Heck even the TFU game, novel and comic version of the fight with Sidious are all different. Only the outcome remained the same.

😆

Wow, is this your argument? Well guess what? We only have the passage of the book to go by. And of course you wouldn't want me looking into the details, because it doesn't help your fanboy argument.

You know, DP, the only reason I keep replying to you is because I sometimes do a horrible job at getting a point across to people. I've never been good at using the best words to get my point accross. But after that dumbass reply, it's clear you won't accept any proof that works against your arguments.

And yeah, you're right, the fight might be different in the series. For all we know, Sidious might blitz them. But of course you don't want to accept that possibility, do you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway like I've stated above, there's no point getting into details like it was "1 TK attack not 2".

Yeah, I know. You want me to assume that they are going to give Sidious more of a challenge than they did in the book. Sidious might have to throw out a bunch of lightning attacks, TK attacks, etc...

Right? 😂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They will be different. And to make such huge assumptions out of those kind of details is just completely jumping the gun.

😂

We should wait until the episode comes out before we continue this, because right now you have no argument.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes. Sidious has a huge psychological advantage over Maul. Maul doesn't even want to fight him. And he's always been in too much awe over Sidious's power, which he feels again in this fight.

Still ignoring the fact that Maul has already tried to kill Sidious I see.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I've already proven Kit's superiority in speed, skill, and reflexes. Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar are refered to as "celebrated swordsmasters" (The complete Visual Dictionary), Mace and Shaak Ti call them four of the orders greatest, and Obi Wan and Yoda also seem to hold them in high esteem. I'm pretty sure they have those reputations for a reason.

^ None of this is proof any of them are "faster" than Savage. For all their "greatness" and "celebratory" status, and the rest of the hyperbolic statements you present as "proof", the fact is you've already admitted Savage could beat down any of them.

Right now your trying to prove they are specifically "faster" than Savage. So try sticking to the point at hand. And less of the "there must be a reason Obi-Wan thinks highly of them" speculative none sense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Their speed and reflexes allows them to easily fend off a bunch of blaster bolts at once (Tiin can do this while carrying someone over his shoulder), whereas Savage couldn't.

And you accuse me of talking crap? When could Savage not deflect Blaster bolts? Stop making up lies! The only times I remember him getting shot were:

1. His first fight against a Jedi when he didn't even have a Lightsaber and had Zero Force training. (He actually showed good speed there dodging all the Jedi's Saber strikes).
2. When he was completely surrounded by 3 Destroyer Droids, Several Battle droids, and several other droids, ALL OF THEM firing at him simultaneously.

None of YOUR "CELEBRATED" Jedi can deflect all that. Heck I'd surprised if Anakin or Obi-Wan could deflect all that!

Problem is your argument is so speculative (and imaginative) that at this point you need to resort to hyperbolic statements and outright lies to back it up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kit Fisto himself has outdueled Grievous, who is a master of all 7 forms and can strike 20 times per second. Based on accolades and feats, it's safe to put these three ahead of Savage in skill, reflex, and swordsmanship.

Well finally! And actual speed feat. But still a faulty argument..

I mean Lol now we're also assuming Savage can't tackle Grievous? Even though he's fast enough to maneuver around Ventress (who has btw also beaten Grievous's while wielding 4 Sabers). And even though Savage has proven fast enough to tackle Anakin and Obi-Wan together.

I could on the other hand argue that Ventress proved to be too fast for Fisto when they fought. Yet she wasn't too fast for Savage.

Again no proof for your made up theory. Just Completely biased speculation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And again, stop lecturing on ABC logic, because clearly you don't know when it works and when it fails. My ABC argument works, whereas yours fails.

LOL Except your A>B>C is completely made up! There's no proof anywhere Fisto is faster than Savage. And if there is you certainly haven't presented it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And? Neither of them are anywhere near as fast as Sidious. And just because he can react to their speed, does not mean he can react to Sidious's full speed.

Yeah maybe the little fact that HE DID react to Sidious's speed is proof that he can. A little fact you keep ignoring and making excuses for.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I have already pointed out, there is proof Sidious did not utilize his speed to it's fullest right away.

Quote the passage if there's proof. Not that I don't trust you or your reading comprehension... Except I really don't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You did insult me first, when you called me a fanboy.

LOL And you call me a cry baby. A guy who calls himself Sidious66 gets insulted when someone tells to stop being a Sidious fanboy for a second and think rationally instead.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which, BTW, you have absolutely no room to talk. You have a history of talking shit, and then crying when someone talks shit back to you.

No I have a history of making arguments that you don't like. That's not the same thing as talking shit.

Talking shit would be what you've been doing when you claimed Savage can't deflect Blaster Bolts, or that Sidious could Blitz Savage, but he "chose" not to. Even though the passage makes no mention of him "playing around" as you claim he was.

Yeah that's definitely a more accurate description of "talking shit."

And I see through all this you've not had the common decency to reply to me with even one post that was free of personal attacks. Even though you can clearly see I'm not taking the same approach with you.

I mean seriously you should learn some manners. Or go find Jesus or something.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, which means Sidious wasn't utilizing his force speed to it's fullest right away. And we know it doesn't require Sidious any time to do it..

How do we know that exactly?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wow, is this your argument? Well guess what? We only have the passage of the book to go by. And of course you wouldn't want me looking into the details, because it doesn't help your fanboy argument. .

Fine show me the quote where it says he was increasing speed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You know, DP, the only reason I keep replying to you is because I sometimes do a horrible job at getting a point across to people. I've never been good at using the best words to get my point accross. But after that dumbass reply, it's clear you won't accept any proof that works against your arguments..

LOL YOU HAVEN'T PROVIDED THE PROOF! When it's proven Savage lasts longer than 2 seconds against Sidious, it's proven Sidious felt he needed an extra Saber to deal with him and Maul simultaneously, then I'm afraid the burden of providing proof is on you when your going to go against the way events have unfolded and make a contrary claim.

And you certainly shouldn't whine when someone doesn't accept your highly speculative A>B>C reasoning asks you for the proof.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And yeah, you're right, the fight might be different in the series. For all we know, Sidious might blitz them. But of course you don't want to accept that possibility, do you? .

No that would be fine. Pretty boring from an entertainment perspective, but fine.

If that happens then you would finally have your proof. Right now, you have nothing but biased speculation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, I know. You want me to assume that they are going to give Sidious more of a challenge than they did in the book. Sidious might have to throw out a bunch of lightning attacks, TK attacks, etc...

Right? 😂

I've not assumed they are going to give him more of a challenge.

The challenge they have put up is fine. Sidious going Jar Kai to battle them, taking out Savage first, and Maul next. Plus using TK attacks where he gets the chance.

I wouldn't expect ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin (bar Zone Anakin) to do any better.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
😂

We should wait until the episode comes out before we continue this, because right now you have no argument.

??? Assuming it plays out exactly as the novel describes, the proof is there Savage lasts longer than Fisto against Sidious. And clearly puts up a much better fight. Fisto's attempt at Sidious was nothing short of a joke, so not that hard an attempt to beat.

It's clearly you who doesn't like the novel's depiction of events, because YOU'RE the one claiming Sidious was playing around. Even though the novel completely forgets to mention that. Hmmm

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Still ignoring the fact that Maul has already tried to kill Sidious I see.

What are you talking about? I posted the link where Filoni says he wasn't.

Also Sidious pushed him to that point, by torturing him physically and psychologically. Because Sidious's Problem with Maul was that HE WAS TOO LOYAL.

Also I love how you keep bringing that up but chose to ignore the fact that Maul almost bested him in Saber combat as part of that same scene Lol.

Btw S66 I just looked back and checked, and this is the apparent insult that your claiming I started:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I personally find the Sidious fanboyism a bit over the top.

LOL.. And then you complain "I" cry over nothing.

And that was in response to you starting the accusations of me apparently having a habit of "making things up" just because I said Yoda was caught off-guard by Sidious's first Lightning shot.. LULZ

Your whole debating style has been an aggressive one filled with personal attacks and insults the second I started breaking down your points.

Not sure what your issue is S66. Maybe your issue IS that you know your always on the losing side of these debates. Or maybe your just plain immature. Who knows.

Either way you seriously need to Calm Down.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw S66 I just looked back and checked, and this is the apparent insult that your claiming I started:

LOL.. And then you complain "I" cry over nothing.

And that was in response to you starting the accusations of me apparently having a habit of "making things up" just because I said Yoda was caught off-guard by Sidious's first Lightning shot.. LULZ

Your whole debating style has been an aggressive one filled with personal attacks and insults the second I started breaking down your points.

Not sure what your issue is S66. Maybe your issue IS that you know your always on the losing side of these debates. Or maybe your just plain immature. Who knows.

Either way you seriously need to Calm Down.

Good. Now how about you go back and actually read my arguments, so that you won't keep bringing up the same defeated points.

I did say for you to stop making things up. That is not an insult. As I explained later in the thread, I thought you were refering to the time when Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, because it wouldn't be the first time you argued that. Besides, you still have not proved how Yoda was caught by surprise the first time.

However, the term "fanboy" is treated as an insult, according to the rules. But as I have told you before, if someone insults me, I just insult them back, especially if their insult is uncalled for. You, on the other hand, like to insult people and then cry and complain when they insult you back.

You started this debate by claiming Maul was holding back and was confused about fighting Sidious. I then reminded you of the time when Maul tried to kill Sidious over a threat of being replaced. I thus proved that Maul is very willing to kill his master when given a good reason. You tried to counter that with Filoni's statement that Maul was not angry with Sidious, and had been working so hard to get back in Sidious's good graces. Well guess what? Just bacause Maul's anger was not directed at Sidious during the time of his schemes to get back in Sidious's favor, does not mean he was not angry and willing to kill Sidious after Sidious denied him to his face (it happened before). According to the trailers, Maul is clearly mad at the fact that he has been replaced (remark about Dooku being a sith pretender). And as for your remark about Maul almost besting Sidious during their first fight, go back and read my counter-argument to that.

You also called me a hypocrite when the majority of your arguments are hypocritical. You continuously lecture on ABC logic, when you constantly use those type of arguments. I've come to the conclusion that you don't even understand how ABC logic works. You assume that because Savage can likely take on someone like Kit Fisto in a fight, due to his advantages of strength and power, that he can be more of a challenge to Sidious. Well you're wrong. None of those advantages can prevent Sidious from blitzing him had Sidious wanted to. Savage is not a very skilled or fast lightsaber duelist. And just because he can react to Ventress's speed does not make him fast enough to react to Sidious's full speed (as I've said for the 100th time). Ventress was able to land quite a few punches on Savage, although he had the advantage of having a lightsaber in his hand, which gave him even more reach than he already has. And your telling me Sidious's blitzing speed is not sufficient to take Savage out right away 🙄

Here is the part where it clearly shows Sidious gradually increasing in speed:

http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Shadow%20Conspiracy%20spoilers/?action=view&current=SidiousvsMaulSavage8-1.png

^ Sounds to me like Sidious was showing off a bit before he chooses to disarm Maul and torture him to death.

Now, before you call someone else a fanboy, make sure you don't fit the description more than they do. I'm done.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Good. Now how about you go back and actually read my arguments, so that you won't keep bringing up the same defeated points.

Lol If they've been defeated it's news to me. I've read everything.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I did say for you to stop making things up. That is not an insult. As I explained later in the thread, I thought you were refering to the time when Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, because it wouldn't be the first time you argued that. Besides, you still have not proved how Yoda was caught by surprise the first time.
However, the term "fanboy" is treated as an insult, according to the rules. But as I have told you before, if someone insults me, I just insult them back, especially if their insult is uncalled for. You, on the other hand, like to insult people and then cry and complain when they insult you back.

No, you said "You have a Habit of making things up". Accusing me of always lying.

All I said was I find the "Sidious fanboyISM a bit over the top.." That's a general statement regarding this scenario, and not just specified at you. Neph said the same thing about Sidious blitzing Maul in 2 seconds before I made that statement.

To take that as permission to insult and attack as much as you want is certainly not taking the high road. Which I've noticed is how you argue, even against people like Nai who are clearly intelligent debators you say "Your just Idiotic. Your just making a Fool out of yourself. Your just a stalker."

Anyway S66 I'll be careful not to write anything to you from now on which might even be interpreted by you as a Tiny form of attack. You carry on with your curses and personal attacks.

Oh and I never cried about your attacks, I just pointed out your level of behavior in this debate even whilst your opponent is being civil with you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You started this debate by claiming Maul was holding back and was confused about fighting Sidious. I then reminded you of the time when Maul tried to kill Sidious over a threat of being replaced. I thus proved that Maul is very willing to kill his master when given a good reason.

I've already addressed all this just in my last post. Sidious was disappointed that MAUL WAS TOO LOYAL. He purposefully tried to get Maul to attempt to kill him by physically and psychologically torturing him for days, and then despite his loyalty through all that telling him he will be replaced.

Could Maul lose it again? Yeah sure he could. But your problem is your just assuming such a rare incident like that is repeating itself.

Again your whole argument is based on assumptions with no proof to back it up.

I think the more sensible assumption would be Sidious would not fool around, with an apprentice who is so well trained and who in a fit of rage has almost bested him in Lightsaber combat in the past, fighting alongside a magically enhanced brother who in a fit of rage has Force Choked Count frigging Dooku.

If you were Sidious would you play around with these 2, risking them both simultaneously raging at you? I don't think so. He was there to kill them Not play around and risk the tide turning.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You tried to counter that with Filoni's statement that Maul was not angry with Sidious, and had been working so hard to get back in Sidious's good graces.

No I didn't try to counter. I did counter by providing proof. Whilst you based on nothing are assuming Maul was in the same fit of rage as he was the one time he was goaded by Sidious into attacking him full on.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well guess what? Just bacause Maul's anger was not directed at Sidious during the time of his schemes to get back in Sidious's favor, does not mean he was not angry and willing to kill Sidious after Sidious denied him to his face (it happened before).

Yes doesn't mean we can just "Assume" he was. The circumstances were completely different this time. He knew he failed Sidious and has been missing for 10+ years. He knew he'd been replaced. And he knew his whole plan was a big gamble.

Completely different scenario to the young and loyal apprentice who had never failed his master, and after being physically and psychologically tortured for days and then told he's being replaced.

So the assumption that he was raging and lost it and went all out in this new scenario is unfounded and requires proof. (Not saying it won't happen in the animation, just saying there seems to be nothing to suggest that's happened in the novel).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
According to the trailers, Maul is clearly mad at the fact that he has been replaced (remark about Dooku being a sith pretender). And as for your remark about Maul almost besting Sidious during their first fight, go back and read my counter-argument to that.

I already told you with proof that Maul is taking his anger out on ALL the wrong people. That will probably include Dooku. Anyone except Sidious. Besides he would call him a "Sith Pretender" considering he was once a Jedi.

As for you rebuttal of Maul besting Sidious... All you gave was an excuse to conveniently ignore it. Your response was CW Maul is more powerful than that Maul.. Therefore that can't be right!

What kind of response is that??

If anything that would make it even more reason for Sidious NOT to Play around, and not risk the new more powerful Maul Raging at him again, alongside his magically enhanced brother.

Your not only picking and choosing which parts of canon you want to accept here, but your picking and choosing from the same damn source what you want to accept and what you don't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ou also called me a hypocrite when the majority of your arguments are hypocritical. You continuously lecture on ABC logic, when you constantly use those type of arguments. I've come to the conclusion that you don't even understand how ABC logic works.

This may come as a shock to you S66, but your conclusions are not the all and end all here.

With the hypocrite thing I directly pointed out how your argument towards me was being hypocritical. That's not an insult or attack. That's telling you to stop that style of argumentation. Because it's... well hypocritical.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You assume that because Savage can likely take on someone like Kit Fisto in a fight, due to his advantages of strength and power, that he can be more of a challenge to Sidious.

No I never assumed that at all. But unlike you I didn't just assume Savage is Slower than Fisto. We actually have proof he's faster because he didn't get blitzed by Sidious the way Fisto did.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And just because he can react to Ventress's speed does not make him fast enough to react to Sidious's full speed (as I've said for the 100th time).

Yes you keep saying for the hundredth time, but your obviously not listening even once!

I didn't just claim Savage can react to Ventress's speed, I provided proof that he can match or even surpass her speed. Go back and read my proof.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress was able to land quite a few punches on Savage, although he had the advantage of having a lightsaber in his hand, which gave him even more reach than he already has. And your telling me Sidious's blitzing speed is not sufficient to take Savage out right away 🙄

Your logic here is faulty. Your claiming Ventress a lot is faster than Savage because she was jumping around dodging his Saber strikes.

So I guess Obi-Wan is a lot faster than Ventress then due to him doing the same when she disarmed his in the CW Movie?? I seriously doubt that.

When they're disarmed it doesn't mean they're going to die right away. They can just keep out of reach and move and jump around for a while (but clearly not indefinitely).

Savage actually disarmed Ventress in the first place by swinging around to behind her mid-saber fight. That was actually showing superior speed to her (in that instant).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Here is the part where it clearly shows Sidious gradually increasing in speed:

It's too small and I can't magnify it. Can you copy and paste it for me please. Also if you have the passage where Obi-Wan cuts Savage I would appreciate a copy of that too.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^ Sounds to me like Sidious was showing off a bit before he chooses to disarm Maul and torture him to death.

Again your making assumptions. We know Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on..

So the passage would need to specify Maul is furious and raging, while Sidious is just playing around before you jump to assumptions.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Now, before you call someone else a fanboy, make sure you don't fit the description more than they do. I'm done.

Well being "done" would save you having to respond to all my well thought out arguments above that have broken every one of yours down. 😎

But at least copy and paste me the fight before you go. And the Obi-Wan cutting Savage please. I would appreciate it even if you don't respond to my post.

It's a photo so I can't copy and paste the passage, and I don't have time right now to write it out. Put the mouse arrow over the picture and a "zoom in" option will appear at the top. You should be able to see it then. You would probably have to ask Aries for details or a passage of Obi Wan's fight with Maul and Savage, because I don't know about that fight.

I'm not going to reply to your arguments anymore. Your trying to tell me that Maul was not angry when the passage clearly shows that he was (rushing towards Sidious with a grim stare). The novel shouldn't have to point out the obvious for you to know what's going on. You're making every excuse for why Maul and Savage are defeated so easily.

BTW, if you haven't read the passage yet, then how the hell can you argue about what is going on in the fight?

Again, before you call someone elses arguments "fanboyism" make sure your own are free of it. Clearly your arguments are full of it, which is why I'm not going to discuss this with you any further.

Sorry to meddle in, but I find this debate very interesting.
Anyways, the passage is:

“Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were to many to count, and then there were even more than that.”

It looks to me that Sidious was speeding up with every attack.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Sorry to meddle in, but I find this debate very interesting.
Anyways, the passage is:

“Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were to many to count, and then there were even more than that.”

It looks to me that Sidious was speeding up with every attack.

Yeah, and Sidious has never shown to require time for his super speed, which is why I believe Sidious was having a little fun with Maul before he kills him.

Lol, oh and sorry Ares. I keep pronouncing your name like the god so that's how I spell it.

Also, @ DP, if my insults really got to you, then I apologize.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I'm not going to reply to your arguments anymore. Your trying to tell me that Maul was not angry when the passage clearly shows that he was (rushing towards Sidious with a grim stare).

Defending himself by rushing with a grim stare does not equal a complete change of heart to having ultimate hate towards Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel shouldn't have to point out the obvious for you to know what's going on.

It would considering the context and back story of Maul and his passion to be Sidious's apprentice once more.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're making every excuse for why Maul and Savage are defeated so easily.

And your making huge assumptions to ignore the fact that they were not blitz in any where near the same manner Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, if you haven't read the passage yet, then how the hell can you argue about what is going on in the fight?

I quickly read through that plus numerous other passages before they were taken down. (Not on KMC).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, before you call someone elses arguments "fanboyism" make sure your own are free of it. Clearly your arguments are full of it, which is why I'm not going to discuss this with you any further.

You won't let go of that fanboyism comment.

If I was a fanboy I would argue things like Maul is Dooku's level or above, which I've never done. I've only ever argued he's slightly above Obi-Wan/Ventress and well above the likes of Kit Fisto.

With Savage I clearly overestimated him in the past due to his big Force Rage showing in season 3. But I still say he's also above Obi-Wan/Ventress based on feats and their past fights.

Whilst you seem to think anyone who is not Yoda or Mace won't last more than a second against Sidious, even when they already clearly have. And it's you who keeps making excuses for why they didn't go down so quickly.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Sorry to meddle in, but I find this debate very interesting.
Anyways, the passage is:

“Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were to many to count, and then there were even more than that.”

It looks to me that Sidious was speeding up with every attack.

Thanks for that.

You see that to me seems as though he is naturally progessing in Speed as the fight goes on.

It doesn't seem like he's playing around, but decides to play around a little less each second. Especially with the lack of any other evidence to suggest he's just having a laugh.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, and Sidious has never shown to require time for his super speed,

You sure about??

When has he been proven to be at top speed from the very beginning of a fight. In the ROTS novel he wasn't described as being a blur of speed until late in the fight with Mace Windu. He was never described as that against Fisto and crew.

And the movie certianly didn't show him whizzing around at that point. His flips against Mace later on were much faster.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
which is why I believe Sidious was having a little fun with Maul before he kills him.

As long as we've now established that it's just your belief, and still a long way from being a proven fact.

Such an important aspect of the fight should not have been left out from the novel.

And like I've already pointed out, looking at Maul and Savage's Rage enhanced feats in the past, it would be pretty stupid of Sidious to mess around with them, and pretty unlikely considering all that was at stake (His identity, his grand plans.. Basically everything).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, @ DP, if my insults really got to you, then I apologize.

Forget I'm not bothered. My whole point was just to calm down and stop diverting the topic so we can debate this sensibly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You sure about??

When has he been proven to be at top speed from the very beginning of a fight. In the ROTS novel he wasn't described as being a blur of speed until late in the fight with Mace Windu. He was never described as that against Fisto and crew.

Speed blitzing Kolar and Tinn before easily dispatching Fisto. IJS. It IS a confirmed fact that he speed blitzed them per GL.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Speed blitzing Kolar and Tinn before easily dispatching Fisto. IJS. It IS a confirmed fact that he speed blitzed them per GL.

We're talking about his top speed.

Also when did GL confirm this? He just said they couldn't compete with Sidious, because you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with him (or possibly Anakin depending on what mood he's in) IIRC.

This is the final time I'm going break your arguments down. If you still do not see how ridiculous your arguments have been, then you are beyond hope.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Defending himself by rushing with a grim stare does not equal a complete change of heart to having ultimate hate towards Sidious.

It would considering the context and back story of Maul and his passion to be Sidious's apprentice once more.

As I've stated before, Maul has, in the past, shown that he is willing to kill Sidious when given the right reason. Sidious's harsh physical and psychological training didn't do it. No, it was the threat of being replaced by another apprentice. However, in TCW, he still had hope in winning Sidious over, but that hope was crushed when Sidious denied Maul and all of his efforts. That is more than enough to make Maul want to kill Sidious. So if you feel that Maul was still hesitant after that, then the burden of proof is on you.

And no, Maul can not almost best Sidious on his own. As I said before, their first fight was a test by Sidious, which was written through Maul's perspective. In fact, in the Plagueis novel, Sidious tells Plagueis that he allows Maul to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And your making huge assumptions to ignore the fact that they were not blitz in any where near the same manner Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were.

Luke has took blast after blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas Yoda was knocked unconscious by a single short blast, therefore Luke must be stronger than Yoda. And since Palpatine did not explicitly state that he was using a weaker version of lightning in order to slowly torture Luke, we must assume that Palpatine was pouring all of his power into his lightning attacks. That's how it was shown on screen, and therefore that's how it happened. And anyone who argues with that is a Sidious fanboy and is making excuses for Palpatine's failure to kill Luke.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You won't let go of that fanboyism comment.

It's not that the word fanboy bothers me. I don't mind playful teasing at all, but you weren't using it in that context. You were upset because you were losing the debate, so you said the arguments in favor of Sidious were fanboyism. You had absolutely no room to talk, considering how you began this debate.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
With Savage I clearly overestimated him in the past due to his big Force Rage showing in season 3. But I still say he's also above Obi-Wan/Ventress based on feats and their past fights.

Savage does have a huge advantage over the likes of Obi Wan and Ventress. It's just that those advantages don't apply with Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst you seem to think anyone who is not Yoda or Mace won't last more than a second against Sidious, even when they already clearly have. And it's you who keeps making excuses for why they didn't go down so quickly.

Yes, I do believe Sidious can take Savage out right away. He did it to three highly skilled swordsmasters, and he can most likely do the same to Savage. If Ventress can land multiple punches on Savage, although he had the advantage of reach and being armed, then yes, Sidious can blitz him.

The only thing you got going for your argument is the possibilty of Savage becoming more skilled than before. But it is a huge stretch to assume that he becomes as skilled as someone like Fisto within a few months time, unless we have proof. And if the rumor is true about Obi Wan cutting his arm off while he [Savage] was fighting alongside Maul, then it doesn't look like he can be considered as skilled as someone like Kit Fisto, considering that Fisto is around Obi Wan's league in skill (SM posted a source earlier in this thread). But again, I don't know about that fight or circumstances, so...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You see that to me seems as though he is naturally progessing in Speed as the fight goes on.

Well, you're wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When has he been proven to be at top speed from the very beginning of a fight.

Do you comprehend how fast Sidious must have been moving when he blitzed those masters? He leaped from one end of the room to the other, and cut down two masters before they could react and then another like a second later (remember, it happened far quicker than shown). The first two masters (Tiin and Kolar) can each fend off multiple of blaster bolts at once, but yet could not even react to Sidious's speed. Kit Fisto has outdueled General Grievous, who is a master of multiple forms and can strike 20 times per second, but went down to Sidious's blade in seconds (possibly less). Whether or not that is Palpatine's top speed, it's still more than enough speed to quickly overcome Darth Maul, and the burden of proof would be on you to prove it requires Sidious time for his top speed. And Anakin gradually getting more powerful during his last fight with Dooku, is not proof. Anakin does not have the command over his own power the way Sidious does his. Besides, Anakin didn't defeat Dooku through superior speed. He defeated him because of his superior force-inhanced strength.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the movie certianly didn't show him whizzing around at that point. His flips against Mace later on were much faster.

lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And like I've already pointed out, looking at Maul and Savage's Rage enhanced feats in the past, it would be pretty stupid of Sidious to mess around with them, and pretty unlikely considering all that was at stake (His identity, his grand plans.. Basically everything)

That's what he did, risked his identity. He went their alone, and took his time in killing them (allowing Maul to watch his brother die, and slowly torturing Maul to death). Clearly he wasn't in any major hurry to kill them, which also helps to support my argument that Sidious did not utilize his speed to its fullest.

So, if fighting Maul and Savage was risking his grand plans and identity, then he obviously took the risk. Or maybe he just didn't find them as threatening as you claim he did?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is the final time I'm going break your arguments down.

How about you actually try breaking down all my rebuttals then instead of just replaying the same old record.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you still do not see how ridiculous your arguments have been, then you are beyond hope.

LOL

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I've stated before, Maul has, in the past, shown that he is willing to kill Sidious when given the right reason. Sidious's harsh physical and psychological training didn't do it. No, it was the threat of being replaced by another apprentice. However, in TCW, he still had hope in winning Sidious over, but that hope was crushed when Sidious denied Maul and all of his efforts. That is more than enough to make Maul want to kill Sidious. So if you feel that Maul was still hesitant after that, then the burden of proof is on you.

I've already addressed all this TWICE Now ON THIS SAME PAGE. But instead of responding to my rebuttal, you've gone back to your original argument which I've already defeated.

I'll briefly repeat myself:

Maul in the first scenario was a loyal apprentice who never failed his master, never even thought about betraying him. He was left on an island to be harshly tested (basically tortured) for days and then
after getting through all this he was told he was going to be replaced for absolutely no reason.

Comparing that to CW Maul, WHO KNOWS he Failed Sidious 10+ years ago, WHO KNOWS he's been replaced and WHO KNOWS his previous ambitions have been crushed and the chances of him regaining all that are pretty slim...

Well there's no comparison to be made there except in the head of S66. So no the burden of proof is on you to show he suddenly wanted Sidious dead after all his efforts to get back in his good graces.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And no, Maul can not almost best Sidious on his own. As I said before, their first fight was a test by Sidious, which was written through Maul's perspective. In fact, in the Plagueis novel, Sidious tells Plagueis that he allows Maul to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is.

LOL Still picking and choosing which pieces of canon you want to use, and which pieces you want to ignore. Even when both pieces come from the same damn source and even the same damn scene!

He did almost best Sidious in a fit of rage as confirmed by the passage.

What Sidious "tells" Plagueis can not be trusted one bit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Luke has took blast after blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas Yoda was knocked unconscious by a single short blast, therefore Luke must be stronger than Yoda. And since Palpatine did not explicitly state that he was using a weaker version of lightning in order to slowly torture Luke, we must assume that Palpatine was pouring all of his power into his lightning attacks. That's how it was shown on screen, and therefore that's how it happened. And anyone who argues with that is a Sidious fanboy and is making excuses for Palpatine's failure to kill Luke.

What the heck are you on about??

2 Sith Lords Facing a weaponless padawan is no threat at all. He has the luxury of taking his time to kill him. His anger at Luke rejecting him was perfectly clear in the scene.

Comparing that to Palpatine on his own fighting a Former Sith Lord, and his Magically Enhanced beast of a brother, both armed, both who have shown insane power and feats when being ridiculed and tortured... Is just the kind of ridiculous comparison only S66 could give.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, I do believe Sidious can take Savage out right away. He did it to three highly skilled swordsmasters, and he can most likely do the same to Savage.

Again already addressed. Just because they were "skilled" swordsman does not make them as fast or as powerful as Savage.

We already saw Savage easily defeat a Jedi Master, clearly showing he was faster, without any training in the Force at all.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Ventress can land multiple punches on Savage, although he had the advantage of reach and being armed, then yes, Sidious can blitz him.

Holy CRAP! I just addressed this on this same page! Look and READ:

Originally posted by Me... Just a couple of Damn posts ago!!

I didn't just claim Savage can react to Ventress's speed, I provided proof that he can match or even surpass her speed. Go back and read my proof.

Your logic here is faulty. Your claiming Ventress a lot is faster than Savage because she was jumping around dodging his Saber strikes.

So I guess Obi-Wan is a lot faster than Ventress then due to him doing the same when she disarmed his in the CW Movie?? I seriously doubt that.

When they're disarmed it doesn't mean they're going to die right away. They can just keep out of reach and move and jump around for a while (but clearly not indefinitely).

Savage actually disarmed Ventress in the first place by swinging around to behind her mid-saber fight. That was actually showing superior speed to her (in that instant).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only thing you got going for your argument is the possibilty of Savage becoming more skilled than before. But it is a huge stretch to assume that he becomes as skilled as someone like Fisto within a few months time, unless we have proof. And if the rumor is true about Obi Wan cutting his arm off while he [Savage] was fighting alongside Maul, then it doesn't look like he can be considered as skilled as someone like Kit Fisto, considering that Fisto is around Obi Wan's league in skill (SM posted a source earlier in this thread). But again, I don't know about that fight or circumstances, so...

No one's arguing skill here. And it's kind of irrelevant unless the Jedi is as fast and strong as Savage.

Obi-Wan does cut Savage's arm. But TPM Obi-Wan also cut down TPM Maul. That doesn't mean he was a match for him in any way. Contaxt is so very important so unless someone provides the passage it's irrelevant until we see how it happens.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, you're wrong.

Great Rebuttal. I guess there was no point in me breaking down all your arguments when I could have just written this the whole time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He leaped from one end of the room to the other, and cut down two masters before they could react and then another like a second later (remember, it happened far quicker than shown). The first two masters (Tiin and Kolar) can each fend off multiple of blaster bolts at once, but yet could not even react to Sidious's speed. Whether or not that is Palpatine's top speed, it's still more than enough speed to quickly overcome Darth Maul, and the burden of proof would be on you to prove it requires Sidious time for his top speed. And Anakin gradually getting more powerful during his last fight with Dooku, is not proof.

He was moving too fast for those 3 Masters, doesn't mean it was too fast for Maul or even Savage to react to.

And ooohhh those 3 Masters can deflect multiple blaster fire??? Wow! That must at least make them as fast as Ashoka!

The fact that Anakin draws on more and more of his Vast Force reserves as the fight goes on, shows the concept is clearly there in Star Wars canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's what he did, risked his identity. He went their alone, and took his time in killing them (allowing Maul to watch his brother die, and slowly torturing Maul to death). Clearly he wasn't in any major hurry to kill them, which also helps to support my argument that Sidious did not utilize his speed to its fullest.

He risked his identity because the threat of an ex-rogue apprentice of his starting a new faction in the galaxy was too big a threat to his plans.

Surely you can see that!

Plus the Rule of 2 was being broken.

It was just too much for Sidious to sit Idly by. He had to sort it out himself. Doesn't mean he would play around with them risking the tide of the battle turning against 2 beasts who have both accomplished exceptional feats when in a Rage boost.