Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

As I've stated before, Maul has, in the past, shown that he is willing to kill Sidious when given the right reason.

And no, Maul can not almost best Sidious on his own. As I said before, their first fight was a test by Sidious, which was written through Maul's perspective.

In other words there is no real answer to how close Maul got to killing him.

What I can say is that prior to the fight Maul was stranded on that planet for a month and undergone a lot of suffering. There is every reason to assume that his rage reached its epos, so it is fair to assume that he gave Sidious at least relatively hard time.

Anakin on getting enraged overpowered Dooku, similarly inferior Luke overpowered Vader.

Emotions play very important part in performance.
Ventress on getting enraged fought both Kenobi and Anakin simultaniously, kicked Kenobi so hard that he collapsed and it took him time to recover and ultimately Force choked them simultaniously.
Similarly Opress on getting enraged choked Dooku and Ventress, threw Kenobi and Anakin across a corridor and gave out Force wave slamming everything in its wake. Both Ventress and Opress never showed similar performance after because you can't summon rage at a whim.

Sidious toyed Luke in first fight, yet, in second fight Luke not only matched his speed but outskilled as well, such a huge difference can be because of emotions.

In fact, in the Plagueis novel, Sidious tells Plagueis that he allows Maul to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is.

Sidious:
" He's even more formidable against living beings.
...
I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber."

Plagueis:
"The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding."

If Sidious could really blitz Maul, it would make no sence why he was impressed with him and why Plaguieis was specificaly astounded by his speed.

In any case you both agreed that Maul is faster than those three Masters. However, it is imposible to make even relative estimates of how fast he is between the Masters and Sidious.
For example, Anakin had 10 years of proper Jedi training with thousands hours of sparring with Kenobi and plenty of real fights. Yet, his speed was equal to Kenobi, Dooku and Ventress - all three with inferior power comparing to him.
In comparison Luke who is at most as powerful as Anakin after 11 years of training most of which was self thought matched speed of Sidious.

Also, I don't get why both of you despise ABC logic so much. It works in determining relative power, strength and speed. The rest depengds as I said above on emotions and, also, on other circumstances.
For example, Dooku's style lacked kinetic energy and he had to outmaneuver instead. But when Opress attacked him, he was forced to block directly because there was crumped space and he was distracted by Ventress, thus got disarmed and overpowered by unsuitable circumstances.
In RotS novel Sidious had fear of falling out of window and redirected some of his power to prevent that and Windu took advantage of that and as result defeated him.
Anakin in film defeated Dooku with surprice grappling technique. And so on.

Both Maul and Opress are in speed league of Kenobi, Anakin, Ventress and Dooku. And Dooku wasn't even overwhelmed by Yoda's speed. So I say Sidious can't blitz either of them.

At the same time it is still possible for Sidious to defeat them nearly instantly but he would do it by outskilling and overpowering them, not by speed blitzing.

Originally posted by Arhael
Willing to kill is not enough to guaranty best performance. Emotions can be conflicting regardless. It is clear that Maul feared Sidious. On the other hand he never feared fighting Jedi.

When fear is spent it usually turns into anger or even rage. So if anything, his fear of Sidious would allow him to fight more effectively and not underestimate him.

In TCW, Maul has worked hard to win Sidious over, but all of Maul's accomplishments were threw right in his face, and he was denied by Sidious. It's hard to imagine Maul not wanting to kill Sidious, especially when he was willing to before.

But I'm not going to argue about that anymore. If you or anyone else want to claim that Maul was holding back, then provide the proof.

Originally posted by Arhael
You can't really say things like that. You are right that it was from Maul's perspective. Yet, at the same time we
don't know Sidious' perspective

Yes I can say that. The whole fight was a test made to look real. Sidious had no intention on killing or even injuring Maul, which is why he used a harmless lightsaber. Blitzing Maul with a harmless lightsaber would have just 'killed it' don't you think? That, added to the fact that a more powerful Maul with the help of his brother was easily defeated by Palpatine, is proof that Maul can not even hope to challenge Sidious on his own.

Originally posted by Arhael
and he would never admit to Plaguies that he nearly got killed as it would make him unworthy of apprenticeship to Plaguieis.

By that point, Palpatine was already a sith master in all but title. Plagueis knew what Palpatine was capable of, and needed him just as much as he needed Plagueis (if not, more). Palpatine was worthy.

Originally posted by Arhael
And? Regardless both of them praized him.

Sidious:
" He's even more formidable against living beings.
...
I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber."

Plagueis:
"The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding."

If Sidious could really blitz Maul, it would make no sence why he was impressed with him and why Plaguieis was specificaly astounded by his speed.

Hopefully you're not like DP, and ask me to ignore some detail, but here is more that you must have missed:

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."
Plagueis turned fully to face him. "Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve."
"He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership."
"Partnership?" Plagueis repeated harshly.
"His and mine; not ours."
"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."
"Did you not do the same for me?"
Plagueis's eyes reflected disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you." -Darth Plagueis, pg: 267

Judging from the bolded statement, Plagueis clearly did not find Maul to be a challenge for someone like Sidious. But that doesn't mean that he did not find Maul impressive.

Originally posted by Arhael
Both Maul and Opress are in speed league of Kenobi, Anakin, Ventress and Dooku. And Dooku wasn't even overwhelmed by Yoda's speed. So I say Sidious can't blitz either of them.

Savage is not on their level in speed. An unarmed Ventress was landing quite a few blows on him. So unless Savage has increased in speed and skill, it's silly to assume that Sidious couldn't blitz him if Sidious wanted.

Sidious has blitzed Kit Fisto long with 2 other masters, who were fighting alongside both Fisto and Windu. Can you prove Savage is faster than them? I doubt it. Savage has been shown to be very unskilled and very sloppy.

It's been a long day for me, and I'm super tired, so I did not address your entire argument, but I did get to the main points.

When fear is spent it usually turns into anger or even rage. So if anything, his fear of Sidious would allow him to fight more effectively and not underestimate him.

But I'm not going to argue about that anymore. If you or anyone else want to claim that Maul was holding back, then provide the proof.

And no one said Maul was holding back. I merely implied that character's performance is not consistent. Ventress and Opress could never replicate rage level, when they could Force choke two immencely powerful Force users simultaniously. Anakin simultaniously subdued both Son and Daughter, yet, he couldn't replicate it even against Son alone, not to mention other far less powerful characters.
We can build countless theories and interpretations about Maul's performance at one or another time.

Yes I can say that. The whole fight was a test made to look real. Sidious had no intention on killing or even injuring Maul, which is why he used a harmless lightsaber. Blitzing Maul with a harmless lightsaber would have just 'killed it' don't you think?

That, added to the fact that a more powerful Maul with the help of his brother was easily defeated by Palpatine, is proof that Maul can not even hope to challenge Sidious on his own.

And I never said that he can challenge Maul. I am talking about speed. He is not much for him because Sidious is far more powerful and skilled.

Palpatine was worthy.

Hopefully you're not like DP, and ask me to ignore some detail, but here is more that you must have missed:

[I]"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."

Judging from the bolded statement, Plagueis clearly did not find Maul to be a challenge for someone like Sidious. But that doesn't mean that he did not find Maul impressive.

Savage is not on their level in speed. An unarmed Ventress was landing quite a few blows on him. So unless Savage has increased in speed and skill, it's silly to assume that Sidious couldn't blitz him if Sidious wanted.

Dooku was fast enough to fight Yoda evenly, yet, he couldn't blitz Kenobi or Anakin even in AotC. He couldn't blitz Opress either and that's why he kept him on distance with lightning instead.

As you see all these top characters have rivaling speed. Outcome depends on skill and circumstances and in some cases one overpowers another.

Sidious has blitzed Kit Fisto long with 2 other masters, who were fighting alongside both Fisto and Windu. Can you prove Savage is faster than them? I doubt it. Savage has been shown to be very unskilled and very sloppy.

It's been a long day for me, and I'm super tired, so I did not address your entire argument, but I did get to the main points.

Originally posted by Arhael

In what sence he was more powerful? Half body is missing and nearly a decade out of practice.

Apparently his anger and training of Savage has made him grow more powerful in the force throughout his time in the CW(according to the novel).

But your also right, he's over a decade out of practice, and his mechanical legs may not be as fast as his biological legs were. And they certainly won't be as fluid and coordinated in movement.

Also Dave Filoni has said "He's broken sort of like Vader.."

So yes even though his power in the force might have increased, other things certainly may have decreased.

Originally posted by Arhael
Never argued against that. My point is why on earth would he admit that Maul nearly killed him?

I've already pointed out to him that Sidious's words to his Master about his own apprentice can not be trusted. But S66 is just ignoring that point.

Sidious said to Dooku about Ventress "I'd hate to think you are training your own Sith Apprentice to overthrow me".. And Dooku says Of Course Not!

You can't exactly take Dooku's word for it in that situation. The fact is the only account we have of that fight (while not being told with the possible intention of manipulation) Maul did almost Best Sidious in a fit of rage.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nah, I am not like DP.

Not Yet. You still have much to learn My Young Apprentice 😛

Originally posted by Arhael
Well, you can't make conclusion from single example. Right before that Ventress was attacking him with lightsaber and TK combo, he blocked all attacks, dodged her killing blow and struck her from behind. Moreover, after Kenobi gave her lightsaber, they constantly swapped and neither could blitz or outskill him.
When got disarmed, both Dooku and Kenobi mockingly dodged Ventress' attacks. And, yet, she was fast enough to fight both Anakin and Kenobi simultaniously and Dooku couldn't blitz her either.

Dooku was fast enough to fight Yoda evenly, yet, he couldn't blitz Kenobi or Anakin even in AotC. He couldn't blitz Opress either and that's why he kept him on distance with lightning instead.

As you see all these top characters have rivaling speed. Outcome depends on skill and circumstances and in some cases one overpowers another.

Precisely. I've been making some of the same points. But S66 just expects us all to believe that Ventress punching Savage (after he already swung around her fast enough to disarm her) means Savage is obviously slower than Kit Fisto... And if we don't accept this baseless assumption well then we are lost and beyond hope.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's fine. I am not as much arguing as giving my opinion. Both you and DP gave your interpretations and opinions on the same thing, neither can be proven completly wrong.

A very fair point. I think in this debate Me and S66 have turned a lot of our own conclusions into "facts."

Which is why I kept saying just go by how the fight was shown.

There's no need to change that by saying Sidious "could" have won any time. He was just playing e.t.c.

Because Like I've continuously pointed out there's Honestly just as much (if not more) reason to believe that Maul could not fight to the best of his ability against the Man he respects, admires and fears more than anyone else in the Galaxy.

The novel even points out during the fight how all these years later Maul is still in Complete Awe of Sidious's power. Not exactly the best mentality to have while fighting someone.

Originally posted by Arhael
While I don't agree that he could blitz them, I agree with you that he could kill them much faster, if he wanted.

Your entitled to that opinion. I personally find it hard to believe he could have defeated these 2 Monsters "Much" faster. It was already a stomp as it was and a huge feat for Sidious.

If he was willing to play around and take his time, knowing he can kill them whenever he wants, then I doubt he would have gone all Jar Kai on them.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are right and yet I can give you many examples, where fear makes even immenselly powerful and enraged Force users completely useless.

Maul's "fear" of Sidious didn't hinder his performance on Hypori so why should I assume it does in TCW?

Originally posted by Arhael
Fine, you can say that but that's only your theories and beliefs. Intention not to kill or injure doesn't mean that his defences and speed would be lower. And if Maul nearly killed him, that would mean that he was fast enough at that point to overcome his defences. But again neither of us can prove our theories.

Umm, Maul did not nearly kill Sidious. Sidious allowed Maul to tap into his rage and attack him full on. Sidious blocked all of Maul's saber attacks and then disarmed him. How do you assume that Maul almost killed him? Had Sidious attacked Maul with his full speed, Maul would have been easily forced on the defensive and disarmed. The whole thing was just a test, made to look real, and according to Sidious, he allowed Maul to believe has was better than he actually was. I'm going to believe that, seeing how easily Sidious handled both him and his bro in the upcoming CW novel.

If you have the passage of their fight on Hypori, do you mind posting it?

Originally posted by Arhael
In what sence he was more powerful? Half body is missing and nearly a decade out of practice.

In Maul's musings, it is stated that he has become more powerful. And by the context in which it was written, Maul was refering to his force inhanced combat abilities. Maul muses that although he has become more powerful, he was in awe of Sidious's speed, and how Sidious could sense all of his and Savage's moves before they happened.

Now, would it make sense for those musings to enter Maul's mind if he was somehow holding back and not fighting to the best of his abilities? No.

Go back to the previous page in this thread. I posted a link to one of the pages to the fight. Just follow it back and you will get the rest.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I never said that he can challenge Maul. I am talking about speed. He is not much for him because Sidious is far more powerful and skilled.

And far faster.

Originally posted by Arhael
Never argued against that. My point is why on earth would he admit that Maul nearly killed him?

Maul didn't nearly kill him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nah, I am not like DP. 😄

I know. At least you're not ignoring the fact that the fight was told through Maul's perspective (which is fallible).

Originally posted by Arhael
And I am perfectly fine with this quote. Plagueis talks about skill, while I talk about speed in responce to your statements about blitzing. And specifically with speed Plagueis was impressed.

I was just pointing out that just because Plagueis found Maul to be impressively fast, does not mean he thought Maul could be a challenge for someone like Sidious. Based on his statement, he didn't.

You do realize that it takes skill to utilize speed effectively, right? Sidious is far above Maul in both, and in power.

Originally posted by Arhael
Well, you can't make conclusion from single example.

Yes, I can. That example shows how unskilled Savage is. It shows that Sidious's speed is way out of Savage's league, and that he has more than enough speed and precision to blitz Savage.

Also, your examples are kinda irrelevant. None of Savage's opponents were as fast as Sidious, so just because he can react to their speed does not make him fast enough to avoid being blitzed by Sidious. Fisto has outduelled Grievous, and had even sparring matches with Obi Wan, but he, along with two other masters, could not avoid being blitzed by Sidious.

As I said, it takes skill to utilize speed effectively. And so far Savage has not been shown to be a skilled opponent at all. He is, as Dooku said, sloppy. Most of his fights are won through either brute strength or raw force power. Those are his only advantages over people like Ventress and Kenobi. He has never outskilled any of his opponents or beaten them in a pure saber fight. Yeah, he has blocked and evaded saber blows from Ventress and Kenobi, but that doesn't mean he is equal to them in speed.

True, Savage is probably more skilled during his fight with Sidious, but I'm not going to assume that within a few months time, he has become more skilled than someone like Fisto unless I have proof.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's fine. I am not as much arguing as giving my opinion. Both you and DP gave your interpretations and opinions on the same thing, neither can be proven completly wrong.

DP hasn't proved any of his opinions.

Originally posted by Arhael
I agree with you that he could kill them much faster, if he wanted.

All the evidents point to it actually. As I have proven, Sidious was not in any major hurry to kill them. At the beginning of the fight, Maul even notes that Sidious was getting a "terrible pleasure" out of it. Yes, Sidious was definitely there to kill them, but he was clearly savoring the moment.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I know. At least you're not ignoring the fact that the fight was told through Maul's perspective (which is fallible).

I see the hypocritical nature of your arguments continues. Accusing me of ignoring Maul's fallible opinion, while presenting Sidious's fallible and most likely manipulative retelling of the story to Plagueis as Fact!

I haven't read the fight in a while but I'm almost certain the "Almost besting Sidious" was the narrator talking.

And even if it was wholly from Maul's perspective, it's the only eye witness account we have of the fight. And not a retelling to a third party that could easily be an outright Lie.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP hasn't proved any of his opinions.

Well this is a no-brainer. If I had Proven any of my opinions then they would no longer be opinions, they would instead be Facts.

The Only FACT is that Sidious DID NOT disarm or defeat these 2 Monsters immediately despite going Jar Kai to make it easier to fight them both off simultaneously. And there clearly WAS a fight going on.

I have however presented many more facts to back up my "Opinions" than you have, from EU material (not conveniently ignoring half the source material like some people), through Dave Filoni's statements, and going through entire past fights (not conveniently ignoring half the fight like some people).

I have also addressed many more of your arguments AND YOUR COUNTER arguments than Vice Versa. This can be clearly seen in the last 2 pages.

You've just been a broken record repeating the same old arguments that have already been thoroughly broken down.

And after repeating the same old defeated arguments you think you can stop the debate and claim some sort of victory LULZ.

It's really too bad that there is such a long gap between responses in this debate. SPEED UP DAMMIT!

Here we go:

'Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death – but Sidious only laughed. By giving into his rage and hatred to kill his own master – by wanting to kill his own master – Maul had in fact passed the final test.' (Dark Side Sourcebook)

From a sourcebook. Not from Maul's perspective, but from a canon source. So you can stop making things up now S66. And don't be surprised or have a fit when you make things up in Sidious's favor and deny facts that go against him, if people will then call you a Sidious fanboy.

The Bold parts clearly show that he almost defeated Sidious, and also how it was in a temporary Rage enhanced Force Boost after being goaded so badly.

So again when Sidious was there and he knew what happened the first time, and he knows how dangerous Maul can be given the right circumstances... So what are the chances that when he's fighting Maul again, but this time alongside his magically enhanced brother, who also has insane feats after being goaded into a temporary rage enhanced force boost.. How likely is it that Sidious would just play around with both of them together, goading them, risking either one of them Raging any moment??? And therefore risking the tide of the fight turning...

Add this to the fact that this time he went Jar Kai (shows he was taking fighting both off them seriously), and how much he had to lose if he didn't succeed in killing them, then it becomes clear it's pretty damn unlikely he was risking playing around with them.

LOL @ JT. Patience is a Virtue.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Here we go:

'Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, [b]he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death – but Sidious only laughed. By giving into his rage and hatred to kill his own master – by wanting to kill his own master – Maul had in fact passed the final test.' (Dark Side Sourcebook)

From a sourcebook. Not from Maul's perspective, but from a canon source. So you can stop making things up now S66. And don't be surprised or have a fit when you make things up in Sidious's favor and deny facts that go against him, if people will then call you a Sidious fanboy.[/B]

What exactly did I make up? I did not know about that passage from the sourcebook. I was arguing from the description of the fight by memory, while you were doing the same. The only difference is that I backed up my argument by acknowledging what Palpatine suggested to Plagueis, while considering how easily he walked all over both Maul and his bro in TCW. Evidently, you were not basing your argument on the passage you just posted, or you would have brought it to my attention from the beginning instead of saying things like:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I haven't read the fight in a while but I'm almost certain the "Almost besting Sidious" was the narrator talking.

^(the fight happens in Maul's journal, BTW, which would make Maul the narrator. The entire book is from his POV)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And even if it was wholly from Maul's perspective, it's the only eye witness account we have of the fight.

But none of this makes you a fanboy, right? Even when I brought out the time when Maul failed to block a lightning attack from a nightsister, your response was something like: "well I guess Obi Wan is more powerful than someone who is well trained in all the sith ways!" Almost as if you wanted some comfort and assurance that Maul was still pretty good. So I'm just curious, why do you feel you have any room to call me a fanboy?

Now, with that said...nice find, DP.

Well I found the full passage of Sidious and Maul's fight on Hypori. There are actually two accounts of the fight, both from Maul's perspective.

This passage comes from The Wrath of Darth Maul:

It was while he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages. The wound festered. The pain was blinding. He listened for approaching droids but heard none. The days blurred, but Maul was almost certain that a full month had passed since he had arrived on Hypori. As he fell into and out of restless sleep, Maul began to wonder if his Master had forgotten him.
His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mouth of the cave.
It was Sidious.
Maul could not believe his eyes. He felt not only relieved to see his Master, but genuinely glad. His Master would help him.
Sidious moved into the cave. He came to a stop near Maul. Smiling as he looked down at his apprentice, he said, "Now it is time for your final battle."
Maul wondered if he had heard correctly. He knew his Master must have been able to see plainly that he was not fit to stand. And yet he also knew his Master never tolerated weakness of any kind. Maul scrabbled at the cave's walls and pulled himself up. His balance was off. Searing pain shot through his leg as he lurched forward. Sidious handed Maul a lightsaber. Maul fumbled with the weapon and activated it. The cave's walls shimmered with light.
Maul did not realize how parched his throat was until he rasped, "Where is the assassin droid, Master?"
Stepping back from Maul, Sidious drew his own lightsaber and ignited its red blade. "I will be your opponent."
Maul stared at his Master with disbelief. And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.
Sidious sneered. "You cannot be as pathetic as you look." He raised his lightsaber and attacked.
Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.
Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."
Maul's anger turned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsbaer again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. He fell against the opposite wall and gasped for breath.
Sidious howled with laughter. "I expected your failure. I saw your weaknesses long ago. Your doubts in your own abilities. Your lack of faith in my teaching. Your inability to embrace the dark side. And that is why, over these long years, I have secretly trained another apprentice."
Maul stared hard at Sidious.
"Oh, poor Maul. All he ever wanted was a friend. Does it please you to know I have another apprentice? Does it make you fell less alone?"
Still trying to catch his breath, Maul said, "More than one apprentice...is against the rules of the Sith."
"You are right," Sidious said with a grin. "A spark of intelligence, at last." He gestured to the mouth of the cave. "My second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He only sustained a flesh wound. He is healthy. He is strong. Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me."
Maul realized his opponent had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.
No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.
Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.
Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"
"Yes," Maul grunted.
"You hate me?"
"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.
Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand. As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivete and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbing Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.
Sidious brought his lightsaber down on Maul. Maul waited for the pain and the shock of death. He was surprised when the lightsaber's blade bounced off his shoulder.
Sidious cackled merrily. He stood and looked at Maul. Then he tossed the lightsaber aside. Maul realized his Master had been using a harmless training lightsaber.
Maul leaned back against the cave wall. The rock bit into his back but he concentrated on the pain while his Master continued to laugh without mercy. When Sidious was done, he faced Maul and said, "Do you feel the hate?"
Maul nodded.
"Good. It is the source of your strength. You will hate me. No matter. Today you have delivered yourself into my hands. I have the power of life or death over you, Maul. Someday you will hold that power over another. It is the honor of the Sith. You will devote yourself to the idea of domination."
"But...what about the other apprentice?"
"There is no other apprentice."
Maul was astonished. He didn't know what to say.
"You have passed the test."
Maul could still taste his Master's blood on his lips, but his rage was rapidly ebbing. He shifted his feet and realized he was standing on his lost lightsaber. He picked it up and shoved it into his belt.
"From this day forward," Sidious said, "you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen a path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."
"Yes, Master."
Sidious smiled proudly. "Your rage. You enjoyed it? You enjoyed wanting to kill me?"
"I took pleasure in it."
Sidious laughed again, but it was not a mocking laughter. "You will do well, Lord Maul."
Maul realized he no longer felt any anger toward Sidious. He felt only...loyalty.

&

From Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul:

One battle with two assassin droids almost undoes me. I sustain a bad blaster wound to my thigh. I drag myself to a cave to hide. I have no bacta, no bandages. Yet I know I must recover before I fight again. The wound festers. It is a searing, blinding pain. I am too weak to forage for food. The days blur. I no longer know how long I've been on this planet. Surely it has been more than a month. Has my master forgotten me?
I am close to hallucinating when Lord Sidious appears at the mouth of the cave. I am so glad to see him that my bones turn to water. I look at him hopefully.
"Now it is time for your final battle," he says.
Another battle? I can't even walk.
Yet his power over me is so strong that I rise on my watery legs. The cave walls shimmer in front of my eyes. My balance is off. I fumble for my lightsaber and activate it.
"Where is the assassin droid, Master?" I ask. My voice emerges hoarsely from thick, swollen lips. I need water. I would kill for water.
My Master powers up his lightsaber. "I will be your opponent."
I take a step toward him. I know this is my final test. I summon up the dark side of the Force. I take all my pain and anger and form it into a tightly packed ball. I set that ball aflame in my chest. I feel a trickle of strength enter me. That encourages me. I use that strength to stoke the fire inside me.
"You cannot be as pathetic as you look," my Master says. He raises his lightsaber and attacks.
I parry the blow and reverse, come at him from the opposite side. But he is already gone by the time I am able to make my attack. The lunge throws off my balance. I weave, the cave walls blurring. He laughs.
"I take it back," he says. "You are that pathetic."
He tells me I am weak, not worthy of being a Sith Lord. He tells me he has misjudged me. I attempt to attack him. The ball of anger inside me turns to howling rage. It is painfully obvious that he is playing with me. He can kill me in a heartbeat. Yet something in me will not accept this, even from my Master. My life force won't allow it. I struggle on, even in the face of his laughter. He tells me that he has expected my failure. He saw my weaknesses long ago. Secretly, over the long years, he has trained another apprentice. I have not been alone.
I point out, gasping, that more than one apprentice is against the rules of the Sith.
"You are right," he says. "A spark of intelligence at last."
The second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He did not sustain more than a flesh wound. He is healthy and strong.
"Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me," my Master says.
I realize dully what this means. My opponents had not really been the droids. My opponent had been someone I had never seen. My enemy has been chosen by my Master. He will become a Sith Lord. He will receive the honor I was due. He will reap the glory I had punished my body and disciplined my mind in order to receive. A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me.
No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master.
Yes, my Master is now my enemy. He is my betrayer. Hatred sears me, hardens me.
"Can you make the next leap in logic?" Lord Sidious asks me contemptuously. "Try to focus, Maul. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die. Maul?"
The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.
With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two. He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.
I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.
He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.
"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"
"Yes, " I grunt.
"You hate me?"
"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.
But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.
I will not be able to deflect the next blow. It will rend me in two. In a blur of heat and pain I see the mighty power of my Master raised against me, see the lightsaber come toward me, see my death as clearly as a bone-white moon in an ebony sky.
I lunge forward and sink my teeth into his hand. I strike like an animal, so quickly he doesn't have time to step away. I taste his blood and spit it back at him in contempt.
Yes, he will kill me. But I will die with his blood on my lips.
The lightsaber comes down. I wait for the pain and shock. I wait to die.
My Master laughs. He tosses the lightsaber aside. It is a training saber. It does not harm me.
I am alive. He will not kill me. My muscles fail me but I don't let him see it. I lean slightly against the cave wall in back of me. The rock bites into my back and I concentrate on the pain while my Master continues to laugh. I will never forget the sound of that laughter. There is no mercy in it.
"Do you feel the hate?" he asks.
I nod.
"It Is the source of your strength. You still hate me," he says. "No matter. Today you have delivered yourself into my hands. I have the power of life or death over you, Maul. Someday, you will hold that power over another. It is the honor of the Sith. You will devote yourself to the idea of domination."
Confused, I ask him about the other apprentice. But there is no other apprentice. It had been a lie.
"You have passed the test," Lord Sidious tells me.
I deactivate my lightsaber and shove it into my belt. I taste my Master's blood on my lips. The world is returning to me slowly. My rage is ebbing, but I have not fully grasped what has happened.
My Master fixes his gaze on me, the ice-gaze that holds such power.
"From this day forward, you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen the path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."
"Yes, Master."
"Your rage," he says. "You enjoyed it? You enjoyed wanting to kill me?"
"I took great pleasure in it," I say.
He laughs again. But this time, his laughter does not mock me. "You will do well, Lord Maul," he says.
And my rage against him leaves, never to return. I am a Sith Lord. I am his instrument.

I guess you can say that Maul did almost best Sidious. He almost bested a Sidious who was clearly holding back and not even fully tapping into his own power, while Maul was fully embracing his. Maul even notes that Sidious had barely begun to tap into his own reserves towards the end of the fight. The fact that Sidious was using a training saber the entire time is proof that Sidious had no intention to harm Maul. But then again, I guess an argument could be made that since Palpatine was using a training saber, he had no reason to hold back, because a training saber is harmless. However, my counter-argument to that would be this: The entire fight on Hypori was just a test. Sidious wanted Maul to fully embrace the dark side by tapping into his anger, so Sidious taunted Maul and lied about replacing him in order to goad him into attacking him. Now, had Sidious went all out on Maul and blitzed him with a training saber from the beginning, Maul would have caught on to the test, and the entire purpose of it would have been killed. Sidious wanted it to look real; he did not want Maul to know that he was using a training saber and that it was a test until Maul's anger was spent. And according to Sidious, he allowed Maul to believe he was more skilled than he actually was.

^None of that contradicts the Dark Side Sourcebook's quote

Also, when we consider how the fight in TCW novel played out, and how badly Sidious stomped a more powerful Maul, who had the help of his brother, then it is clear that Maul can not hope to challenge Sidious on his own. And as I brought out earlier in the thread, Sidious wasn't even using his full speed on Maul that entire fight, but was instead gradually increasing in speed.

Your entitled to that opinion. I personally find it hard to believe he could have defeated these 2 Monsters "Much" faster. It was already a stomp as it was and a huge feat for Sidious.

Maul's "fear" of Sidious didn't hinder his performance on Hypori so why should I assume it does in TCW?

Umm, Maul did not nearly kill Sidious.

and according to Sidious, he allowed Maul to believe has was better than he actually was.

I'm going to believe that, seeing how easily Sidious handled both him and his bro in the upcoming CW novel.

In Maul's musings, it is stated that he has become more powerful.

And far faster.

Maul didn't nearly kill him.

I know. At least you're not ignoring the fact that the fight was told through Maul's perspective (which is fallible).

I was just pointing out that just because Plagueis found Maul to be impressively fast, does not mean he thought Maul could be a challenge for someone like Sidious. Based on his statement, he didn't.

You do realize that it takes skill to utilize speed effectively, right? Sidious is far above Maul in both, and in power.

Yes, I can. That example shows how unskilled Savage is. It shows that Sidious's speed is way out of Savage's league, and that he has more than enough speed and precision to blitz Savage.

Also, your examples are kinda irrelevant. None of Savage's opponents were as fast as Sidious, so just because he can react to their speed does not make him fast enough to avoid being blitzed by Sidious.

As I said, it takes skill to utilize speed effectively...

True, Savage is probably more skilled during his fight with Sidious, but I'm not going to assume that within a few months time, he has become more skilled than someone like Fisto unless I have proof.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because emotions are far more complex, than you think. Effect of fear is not defined. In one case Luke because of fear for Leia got enraged and overpowered Vader, in another - because of fear for Mara got paralyzed/froze completely.
In ones case Luke because of anger overpowered Vader and badly batters Jacen. In another - nearly loses to Kueller.

Again: Maul's "fear" of Sidious didn't hinder his performance on Hypori so why should I assume it does in TCW?

Originally posted by Arhael
From book's narration he did. And I know that you don't believe it, so no need to repeat it ten times per post.

When did Maul "almost kill" Sidious? Point it out.

Originally posted by Arhael
Correction, according to Plagueis, who didn't see the fight.

Sidious did not deny it. He basically admits to it.

Originally posted by Arhael
At least you admit that you don't know but only believe.

Read my previous post. The whole thing was a test that Sidious wanted to make look real. Sidious held back considerably and was not even fully tapping into his reserves of power. He wanted Maul to believe that he was trying to kill him.

Put two and two together.

Originally posted by Arhael
And where those musings are? I thought Book is not out yet.

I told you where to find the link.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Sorry but your assumption is widely unsupported. More powerful does not equate to far faster. Luke with all his OMG power was outskilling opponents, not blitzing. Even when in anger, he couldn't blitz even Lumya. Sorry but your opinion that Sidious could simply blitz any of the main characters is completely biased.

What the hell does being a main character have to do with anything? If an opponent is not fast and skilled enough, then they won't last.

Sidious has blitzed three very skilled and fast swordsmasters in seconds. You can bring up all the examples of other characters not doing the same all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Sidious has done it, and can do it. He has. Get over it.

I never said being more powerful equates to being faster. I said Sidious was faster, more skilled, and more powerful than Maul. Maul does not have one single advantage over Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Actually that doesn't make it fallible. While it is writen from character's perspective, it is still narration. All books are from perspective of one or another character and author wouldn't mislead reader. Like that we can discard nearly every feat.

WTF? Yes it does make it fallible. Notice how at the beginning of the duel, Maul seems to believe he is more powerful than Sidious by musing that Sidious is not as powerful as he seems. However, towards the end of the fight, when Sidious chooses to attack Maul, Maul realizes that Sidious had barely begun to tap into his own reserves. Yes, Maul's perspective is very fallible.

Originally posted by Arhael
You do realize that you keep repeating your opinion, right?

No, it's a fact that Sidious is far faster, far more skilled, and far more powerful than Maul. He has the feats to prove it. One of these feats would be defeating both Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Arhael
And yet all Dooku (who evenly fought Yoda) could do is back away dodging his attacks and on first block lost lightsaber.

Dooku blocked Savage's lightsaber attack, but was seemingly taken by surprise by Savage's strength. As skilled and fast as Dooku is, he should have cut Savage down. What's your point? What does that have to do with Ventress landing multiple punches on Savage?

I'm not going in circles over this again. You have not proved that Savage is faster than someone like Fisto. Judging by what we know about Savage so far, he doesn't have the speed or skill that would allow him to last more than a few seconds against Sidious' full speed.

Based on how the fight went in the upcoming novel, it's pretty clear that Sidious was not in any hurry to kill Maul and Savage, but instead seemed to be enjoying himself. So it's very likely that Sidious didn't draw as deeply on the dark side to boost his speed as he did in his fight with Mace & company.

And, no, simply being fast is not helpful in a saber fight, unless the advantage of speed is very huge.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What exactly did I make up? I did not know about that passage from the sourcebook. I was arguing from the description of the fight by memory, while you were doing the same. The only difference is that I backed up my argument by acknowledging what Palpatine suggested to Plagueis, while considering how easily he walked all over both Maul and his bro in TCW. Evidently, you were not basing your argument on the passage you just posted, or you would have brought it to my attention from the beginning instead of saying things like:

Fair enough. I completely forgot about Maul's Journal. I knew there was a Maul novel I was missing.

Still your argument about what Palpatine suggested to Plagueis is a completely flawed one. The source by it's very nature is very untrustworthy.

And it's false anyway. Palpatine doesn't think that. It's made clear from his own thought in Shadow Hunter that he sees Maul's combat skills as completely unparalleled.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^(the fight happens in Maul's journal, BTW, which would make Maul the narrator. The entire book is from his POV)

Right yeah, fair enough. I get that now.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But none of this makes you a fanboy, right? Even when I brought out the time when Maul failed to block a lightning attack from a nightsister, your response was something like: "well I guess Obi Wan is more powerful than someone who is well trained in all the sith ways!" Almost as if you wanted some comfort and assurance that Maul was still pretty good. So I'm just curious, why do you feel you have any room to call me a fanboy?

What? Maul never "failed" to block Mighella's FL. She shot him while he was in mid-air. And then was shocked at his knowledge of the Dark Side when he was able to tank it. If anything that's more proof of Maul's heavy knowledge and skill with using the Dark Side of the Force.

And the Obi-Wan point was a completely fair one. He was able to block Count Dooku's FL with his Saber. I really hope you don't think AOTC Obi-Wan is better in the Force than Maul.

Like I said if I was some kind of Maul fanboy I would be arguing he's equal to or greater than Dooku. Which I've never done. I've only argued he puts up a Saber fight against Sidious and lasts longer than a few seconds, whilst the evidence shows if he's in some kind of Uber Rage he does A LOT better and comes close to Sidious in Sabers (At least when Sidious is only wielding 1 Saber anyway).

First thanks for the passages. Anyway:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I guess you can say that Maul did almost best Sidious. He almost bested a Sidious who was clearly holding back and not even fully tapping into his own power, while Maul was fully embracing his. Maul even notes that Sidious had barely begun to tap into his own reserves towards the end of the fight.

He says he barely began to use his force reserves, whilst Maul's were finished. That sounds like it's talking about Stamina. Sidious could have carried on at that level of power for ages, whilst Maul had used up his reserves in utilizing his Rage to power him up more than usual. Also it seems he was exhausted from his ordeal anyway.

But during the fight Maul seemed to think he staggered Sidious, and noted Sidious was "Working Hard" to fight Maul off. And this of course is confirmed to be true by the sourcebook's take on the fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The fact that Sidious was using a training saber the entire time is proof that Sidious had no intention to harm Maul. But then again, I guess an argument could be made that since Palpatine was using a training saber, he had no reason to hold back, because a training saber is harmless. However, my counter-argument to that would be this: The entire fight on Hypori was just a test. Sidious wanted Maul to fully embrace the dark side by tapping into his anger, so Sidious taunted Maul and lied about replacing him in order to goad him into attacking him. Now, had Sidious went all out on Maul and blitzed him with a training saber from the beginning, Maul would have caught on to the test, and the entire purpose of it would have been killed. Sidious wanted it to look real; he did not want Maul to know that he was using a training saber and that it was a test until Maul's anger was spent.

It was a test. A test to get him to attempt to kill him.

And yeah I think the fact that it was a training Saber gives no reason at all for Sidious to hold back once Maul was in his Uber Rage.

End of the day Boxer's don't wear Boxing gloves to hold back. They wear them so they can go All Out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And according to Sidious, he allowed Maul to believe he was more skilled than he actually was.

Not true. Already addressed. Sidious's own thoughts in Shadow Hunter are that Maul's Combat Skills are completely unparalleled.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^None of that contradicts the Dark Side Sourcebook's quote

Agreed. The different accounts of the fight do not contradict each other. They all make it clear that Maul almost bested Sidious in a fit of rage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, when we consider how the fight in TCW novel played out, and how badly Sidious stomped a more powerful Maul, who had the help of his brother, then it is clear that Maul can not hope to challenge Sidious on his own. And as I brought out earlier in the thread, Sidious wasn't even using his full speed on Maul that entire fight, but was instead gradually increasing in speed.

I doubt the CW Maul that Sidious stomped was as Powerful as the Rage Enhanced Maul who almost bested Sidious, and whose combat Skills were in their prime. When he fought more skillfully with his Saber Staff. He also reached some kind of Zone state in that fight, as he notes even through his Uber Rage he was fighting in a very skilled and coordinated manner.

Again it's not the first account of a Jedi/Sith gradually increasing in Speed/Power.

Anakin Skywalker gets stronger as the fight goes on. Mace Windu also takes time to fully sink into Vapaad where he reaches the height of his speed and power.

Also going Jar Kai on Maul alone (with his brother out of the pic) would certainly be a hard task for Maul to fend off with his Single Saber. The speed of 2 Sabers coming from Sidious both focusing on Maul would seem like a crazy number of Sabers coming at him.

A small preview of the fight in question:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/08/26/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-trailer-maul-mandalorians-and-one-angry-lightsaber-wielding-darth-sidious-exclusive/

It definitely looks like a fight to me. And the dual saber Jar Kai seems required Imo.

Also WOW!

Sidious is INCREDIBLY badass!

I'm sorry, did.. Did Palps just wave a hand, choke two guards, cackle, whip out two.. TWO sabers, berate Maul and then totally Jar'Kai ndihsduojs...

.....Lucas must be fapping like crazy, I know I am.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sidious is INCREDIBLY badass!

Have to admit that IS some Badass Combat Skills Sidious is displaying there..

Too bad S66 is ruining it for his own Fav character by saying all he's doing there is dancing around a couple of nobody's who are no threat whatsoever.

It's only Badass Skill he's showing there if he's working for the win Imo. If he's not then it's nothing more than a flashy dance.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
then totally Jar'Kai ndihsduojs...

What does that mean? Lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it's false anyway. Palpatine doesn't think that. It's made clear from his own thought in Shadow Hunter that he sees Maul's combat skills as completely unparalleled.

Sidious constantly praises Maul. Palpatine even tells Plagueis that he took great pride in training Maul. Maul is a product of his own training and teaching. So I don't know if Sidious's praises of Maul are a result of him thinking very highly of Maul, or if it's a result of him thinking very highly of himself. However, I doubt that Sidious actually believes Maul's skills are superior to someone like his or Yoda's.

In his conversation with Plagueis, Sidious was actually trying to impress Plagueis with his disciple, and wasn't even going to admit to allowing Maul to believe he was more skilled than he actually was, until Plagueis called him out on it. So, no, I don't see any manipulative motive for Sidious to allow Plagueis to presume that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? Maul never "failed" to block Mighella's FL. She shot him while he was in mid-air. And then was shocked at his knowledge of the Dark Side when he was able to tank it. If anything that's more proof of Maul's heavy knowledge and skill with using the Dark Side of the Force.

Maul did fail to block her lightning attack. What does being in mid-air have to do with anything? He was still armed with a lightsaber, and was coming right at her. He wasn't just stuck up there in the air. The fact that she attacked him before he made it through with his attack, is pretty impressive on her part, given Maul's speed. There is no reason to assume that Sidious, who is one of the fastest force users in the mythos, isn't fast enough to force lightning Maul in the middle of a duel. And there is absolutely no way Maul can tank Sidious's lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He says he barely began to use his force reserves, whilst Maul's were finished. That sounds like it's talking about Stamina. Sidious could have carried on at that level of power for ages, whilst Maul had used up his reserves in utilizing his Rage to power him up more than usual. Also it seems he was exhausted from his ordeal anyway.

Just begun to tab into his own reserves seems to be implying that Sidious was holding back his own power. And by the way the fight went, that seems to be the case.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was a test. A test to get him to attempt to kill him.

A sith master should be the source of his apprentice's rage and hate, and because of this, an apprentice should want to kill his master, kinda like Plagueis told Palpatine. The purpose of Palpatine's test was to get Maul to fully embrace the dark side by tapping into his hate and rage in an attempt to kill his master. The quote you brought out made that pretty clear. You can't fully embrace the dark side unless you learn to tap into your hatred and rage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yeah I think the fact that it was a training Saber gives no reason at all for Sidious to hold back once Maul was in his Uber Rage.

Why are you ignoring my counter argument? Palpatine would not want Maul to know it was a test until the test was complete and Maul's anger was spent. Why would Palpatine go all out on Maul with a training saber? That would have risked Maul finding out the saber was harmless, which would have basically killed the entire purpose of the test.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Agreed. The different accounts of the fight do not contradict each other. They all make it clear that Maul almost bested Sidious in a fit of rage.

He almost bested a Sidious who was not fully tapping into his reserves of power. Sidious's speed comes from his power and command of the force. He can instantly blitz masters in seconds. It's silly to assume that Maul can match his speed, unless Sidious was holding back his full speed, or if Maul's power in the force exceeds Sidious's. Even in a fit of rage, Maul should be no match for a Sidious who is completely tapping into his own power, unless Maul's own raw power matches or exceeds Sidious's. And we definitely know that's not the case.

Hell, Sidious even continues to taunt Maul while Maul is attacking him. Evidently, Sidious didn't feel too threatened by Maul at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt the CW Maul that Sidious stomped was as Powerful as the Rage Enhanced Maul who almost bested Sidious, and whose combat Skills were in their prime. When he fought more skillfully with his Saber Staff.

Then you might as well ignore all those quotes you threw out about Maul being well trained in all sith ways. A fully trained sith lord, who has fully embraced the dark side, should know how to tap into and harness their rage when needed.

For instance: in a fit of rage, Palpatine slaughters his entire family and their guards, ripping body limbs off, crushing windpipes, and crushing skulls. As a fully trained sith lord he easily brings down cielings, casually rips senate pods from durasteel-like restraints (while laughing), blitzes master swordsman before they can react, and more. It doesn't require a fully trained Sidious to be in a fit of rage to do far greater things, and with far greater ease, because he has learned to harness his rage, and has far greater command over his dark side force powers.

Maul has spent years consumed by his rage and hatred/dark side. After Talzin restores his sanity, Maul should be far more dangerous than ever before. Maul even notes that he has become more powerful, and he was obviously refering to his force-inhanced combat abilities. Maul muses that he was still in awe of Sidious despite being more powerful than before. Those musings would not enter Maul's mind if he was anable to harness his rage, or if his abilities were somehow being hindered.

Besides, as I pointed out, Maul would be in a similar state of rage as he was on Hypori, unless you can provide proof that he wasn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again it's not the first account of a Jedi/Sith gradually increasing in Speed/Power.

As I already said, Palpatine's top speed has never required time before.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin Skywalker gets stronger as the fight goes on. Mace Windu also takes time to fully sink into Vapaad where he reaches the height of his speed and power.

I don't care about those examples. They are irrelevent. Sidious has a far greater command over his force powers than Anakin does his. Windu requires a state of mind to achieve that level of speed, and possibly even an amp from his dark side opponents. Nai's explanation would make sense except for one thing: vapaad gave Mace the ability to be Palpatine's equal in speed. Force speed requires both power in the force and command over that power. Sidious eclipses Windu in both command and power. So I don't see how Windu can become Palpatine's equal unless vapaad gives him some sort of amp. And if not, then it's safe to put Windu as Yoda's equal (at least in power anyway).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Have to admit that IS some Badass Combat Skills Sidious is displaying there..

Too bad S66 is ruining it for his own Fav character by saying all he's doing there is dancing around a couple of nobody's who are no threat whatsoever.

It's only Badass Skill he's showing there if he's working for the win Imo. If he's not then it's nothing more than a flashy dance.

What are you saying? That because Palpatine is moving impressively fast, that he's working especially hard for the win? He's not fighting 2 slowpokes, so of course he is going to have to move fast. That doesn't mean he was displaying his top speed.