Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious constantly praises Maul. Palpatine even tells Plagueis that he took great pride in training Maul. Maul is a product of his own training and teaching. So I don't know if Sidious's praises of Maul are a result of him thinking very highly of Maul, or if it's a result of him thinking very highly of himself. However, I doubt that Sidious actually believes Maul's skills are superior to someone like his or Yoda's.

In his conversation with Plagueis, Sidious was actually trying to impress Plagueis with his disciple, and wasn't even going to admit to allowing Maul to believe he was more skilled than he actually was, until Plagueis called him out on it. So, no, I don't see any manipulative motive for Sidious to allow Plagueis to presume that.

Because as I have already stated he specifically thinks to himself that Maul is unequalled in combat skill. So I don't get why you think his hints to Plagueis are more trustworthy than his own thoughts to himself.

Also not saying this is true but Maul could be Yoda's equal in Lightsabger and close combat skill, and Sidious certainly could have believed that. Remember Anoon Bondara was at least Yoda's equal in Lightsaber wielding skills.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul did fail to block her lightning attack. What does being in mid-air have to do with anything? He was still armed with a lightsaber, and was coming right at her. He wasn't just stuck up there in the air. The fact that she attacked him before he made it through with his attack, is pretty impressive on her part, given Maul's speed. There is no reason to assume that Sidious, who is one of the fastest force users in the mythos, isn't fast enough to force lightning Maul in the middle of a duel. And there is absolutely no way Maul can tank Sidious's lightning.

Lol he didn't even know she wielded force lightning. He was in mid-air taken by surprise. And yet he was still able to tank it. That's impressive knowledge of the dark side.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just begun to tab into his own reserves seems to be implying that Sidious was holding back his own power. And by the way the fight went, that seems to be the case.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest someone can just use all their Force Reserves at once in one go. If they could then they'd be out of power and wouldn't be able to carry on. Kind of like when Jedi/Sith temporarily gain power by tapping into their rage.

Remember in the ROTS novel how Count Dooku when tired would reach through his Force reserves to revitalize himself?? So Force "reserves" clearly give stamina.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Why are you ignoring my counter argument? Palpatine would not want Maul to know it was a test until the test was complete and Maul's anger was spent. Why would Palpatine go all out on Maul with a training saber? That would have risked Maul finding out the saber was harmless, which would have basically killed the entire purpose of the test.He almost bested a Sidious who was not fully tapping into his reserves of power. Sidious's speed comes from his power and command of the force. He can instantly blitz masters in seconds. It's silly to assume that Maul can match his speed, unless Sidious was holding back his full speed, or if Maul's power in the force exceeds Sidious's. Even in a fit of rage, Maul should be no match for a Sidious who is completely tapping into his own power, unless Maul's own raw power matches or exceeds Sidious's. And we definitely know that's not the case.

Hell, Sidious even continues to taunt Maul while Maul is attacking him. Evidently, Sidious didn't feel too threatened by Maul at all

Obviously at the beginning of the fight when Maul could hardly move Palpatine had to be holding back then, or Maul would have dropped in a second.

But once he gave into his rage and tried to kill Palpatine, there was no need for him to hold back. And the fact that we are canonically told Maul almost best Sidious, and Sidious barely deflected all Maul's attacks, is proof he wasn't holding back at that point.

See above about the force reserves issue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Then you might as well ignore all those quotes you threw out about Maul being well trained in all sith ways. A fully trained sith lord, who has fully embraced the dark side, should know how to tap into and harness their rage when needed.

For instance: in a fit of rage, Palpatine slaughters his entire family and their guards, ripping body limbs off, crushing windpipes, and crushing skulls. As a fully trained sith lord he easily brings down cielings, casually rips senate pods from durasteel-like restraints (while laughing), blitzes master swordsman before they can react, and more. It doesn't require a fully trained Sidious to be in a fit of rage to do far greater things, and with far greater ease, because he has learned to harness his rage, and has far greater command over his dark side force powers.

Maul has spent years consumed by his rage and hatred/dark side. After Talzin restores his sanity, Maul should be far more dangerous than ever before. Maul even notes that he has become more powerful, and he was obviously refering to his force-inhanced combat abilities. Maul muses that he was still in awe of Sidious despite being more powerful than before. Those musings would not enter Maul's mind if he was anable to harness his rage, or if his abilities were somehow being hindered.

No you obviously don't understand how a temporary rage enhanced force boost works at all. It's not something you can do on demand.

Ventress was well trained in the dark side. So does that mean she can Force choke Anakin and Obi-Wan together any time she wants??
Something even Count Dooku has never managed to do! Of course she can't.

Maul's anger towards his own failure and Obi-Wan's success has probably increased his power in the force on a more permanent basis. (Although it's a no-brainer that he won't apply that power in a fight as effectively without his biological legs and chosen weapon).

But he can't just permanently be on the level he was when he almost bested Sidious. He doesn't have the Force reserves to pull that off. And you can't just be at your top level of rage at all times. That's why it's called a Temporary Rage Enhanced Force Boost.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, as I pointed out, Maul would be in a similar state of rage as he was on Hypori, unless you can provide proof that he wasn't.

What? Again a Force Rage Boost is not just something that comes on demand. Your the one who would have to prove he was in a Fit of Rage.

And your points about the similarities to the fight on Hypori have been addressed countless times now. I've pointed out how completely different the situation was. So go address those counter arguments of mine first if you really insist on carrying on this point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I already said, Palpatine's top speed has never required time before.

Yes you've said but not proven I'm afraid.

Also I already pointed out, Sidious going Jar Kai on Maul one on one would be A LOT faster a blitz than what he was capable of with a single saber against those 3 "celebrated" swordsman.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't care about those examples. They are irrelevent. Sidious has a far greater command over his force powers than Anakin does his. Windu requires a state of mind to achieve that level of speed, and possibly even an amp from his dark side opponents. Nai's explanation would make sense except for one thing: vapaad gave Mace the ability to be Palpatine's equal in speed. Force speed requires both power in the force and command over that power. Sidious eclipses Windu in both command and power. So I don't see how Windu can become Palpatine's equal unless vapaad gives him some sort of amp. And if not, then it's safe to put Windu as Yoda's equal (at least in power anyway).

Vapaad did not give Mace the ability to equal Sidious's speed. Sidious was faster the whole fight. More so before Mace was fully emerged in Vapaad.

Point being there's 2 examples there for you of Jedi who get more powerful/faster as the fight goes on. One is a Jedi Master of the highest level, and his style is a variant of Sidious's style (Juyo).

So the concept is there. Add to the fact that it was the first time Sidious was going Jar Kai on Maul one on one, then it's clear there's no proof Sidious was ever holding back. At least not until Savage was permanently out of the picture.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What are you saying? That because Palpatine is moving impressively fast, that he's working especially hard for the win? He's not fighting 2 slowpokes, so of course he is going to have to move fast. That doesn't mean he was displaying his top speed.

Oh he wasn't fighting 2 Slow Pokes?? Ah right finally an admission that Savage isn't slow and Sidious had to use substantial speed to fight him and Maul together.

You seem to pick and choose when he was using his top speed at the beginning of a fight, and when he wasn't. He's clearly using his incredible speed in that fight and still needs 2 Sabers to fight them both off.

Anyway what my point was, is that he's displaying amazing jar kai combat skills there. But it's only amazing if it's required and the 2 opponents are a threat.

It's not impressive at all (in terms of combat skill) if they're both nothing to him and he's just playing around. In that case it's nothing more than a flashy dance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember Anoon Bondara was at least Yoda's equal in Lightsaber wielding skills.

DP - I'm disappointed with you. Be]fore you utter such blatantly moronic and highly biased nonsense, you should really consider the source the information.

EDIT: Not calling YOU a moron, just indicating that what you stated was moronic.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Remember in the ROTS novel how Count Dooku when tired would reach through his Force reserves to revitalize himself?? So Force "reserves" clearly give stamina.

When Dooku's reserves were spent/nearly spent, he was barely able to sense the room around him through the Force. It applies to more than just stamina.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Sidious was faster the whole fight. More so before Mace was fully emerged in Vapaad.

😬

He was? Really? The whole fight? You sure about that? Nah man... Don't think so. Better read again.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

It's not impressive at all (in terms of combat skill) if they're both nothing to him and he's just playing around. In that case it's nothing more than a flashy dance.

Logical fallacy! Whether or not they're nothing to him (w/ regard to combat) or not does not support your conclusion above. Sidious is INSANELY powerful, and as such, reduces nearly every opponent, save for a Yoda or a Mace Windu, as being insignificant when compared to him (Kit Fisto, Kolar, Tinn). That doesn't make his showings any less impressive. Hell, it makes them MORE impressive. If Sidious can simply toy with an otherwise high level combatant, then that's some seriously impressive shit.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
DP - I'm disappointed with you. Be]fore you utter such blatantly moronic and highly biased nonsense, you should really consider the source the information.

EDIT: Not calling YOU a moron, just indicating that what you stated was moronic. [/B]

It's fine. We all say moronic things from time to time.

But you do realize I'm not at all suggesting Anoon would match Yoda in Sabers right? He wouldn't stand a chance against Yoda's strength, speed and power.

Just talking about skill.. Anoon's skills with a Saber being second to none.

Also biased? You mean because his padawan said it in Shadow Hunter? It was stated by a different source in Cloak of Deception, and I'm sure it's confirmed by a sourcebook as well. But will have to find that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

When Dooku's reserves were spent/nearly spent, he was barely able to sense the room around him through the Force. It applies to more than just stamina.[/B]

Because he couldn't revitalize himself with the Force at that point. So it is stamina. His reserves were finished so he couldn't fight at anywhere near the same level anymore.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
He was? Really? The whole fight? You sure about that? Nah man... Don't think so. Better read again. [/B]

Yeah when was Mace Sidious's equal in speed? "He accepted speed of the Sith Lord". I'm sure that's implying Sidious was faster. And I don't remember a quote later on that stated they were equal in speed.

Unless your referring to the fighting equally with no possibility of fatigue..

He was his equal overall in Sabers (possibly superior) but that doesn't mean they was equally fast and strong e.t.c. Mace might have been stronger but Sidious faster.

Anyway who cares, even if he was as fast, doesn't make him as powerful as Yoda which is what S66 was implying when I made that response.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's fine. We all say moronic things from time to time.

But you do realize I'm not at all suggesting Anoon would match Yoda in Sabers right? He wouldn't stand a chance against Yoda's strength, speed and power.

Just talking about skill.. Anoon's skills with a Saber being second to none.

Also biased? You mean because his padawan said it in Shadow Hunter? It was stated by a different source in Cloak of Deception, and I'm sure it's confirmed by a sourcebook as well. But will have to find that.

Still cannot buy it. Yoda, who over the course of his 900 years FULLY mastered each and every form of lightsaber combat, is surely beyond Bondara in terms of sheer technical knowledge/skill with said lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yeah when was Mace Sidious's equal in speed? "He accepted speed of the Sith Lord". I'm sure that's implying Sidious was faster. And I don't remember a quote later on that stated they were equal in speed.

Unless your referring to the fighting equally with no possibility of fatigue..

He was his equal overall in Sabers (possibly superior) but that doesn't mean he was equally fast and strong e.t.c.

Anyway who cares, even if he was as fast, doesn't make him as powerful as Yoda which is what S66 was implying when I made that response.

Are you serious? Accepting the speed of the Sith Lord doesn't necessarily mean he remained faster. That's a huge stretch. I'd say the fact that Mace Windu was described as appearing to wield DOZENS of lightsabers attacking from every angle pretty much says what needs to be said with respect to this point. And yes, also the "fighting equally with no possibility of fatigue" quote is valid in this respect as well.

Also, I don't think he's implying that Mace is Yoda's equal, hence the qualifying statement regarding Vaapad making Mace equal to Sidious. (Stay out of this Arheal - don't have time for you right now). He was saying, I believe, that If Vaapad isn't what put Mace on equal ground with Sidious, then Mace must be Yoda's superior (which even if that were the case, I would strongly disagree w/ the latter part saying that Mace would be equal w/ Yoda - He is not).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Still cannot buy it. Yoda, who over the course of his 900 years FULLY mastered each and every form of lightsaber combat, is surely beyond Bondara in terms of sheer technical knowledge/skill with said lightsaber.

Comparing to Yoda was probably on top. But the point stands that Sidious believed Maul's combat skills to be unparalleled. It's not like Sidious ever watches Yoda fight and unlikely Sidious would think of Yoda's skills as substantially beyond his own.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Are you serious? Accepting the speed of the Sith Lord doesn't necessarily mean he remained faster. That's a huge stretch. I'd say the fact that Mace Windu was described as appearing to wield DOZENS of lightsabers attacking from every angle pretty much says what needs to be said with respect to this point. And yes, also the "fighting equally with no possibility of fatigue" quote is valid in this respect as well.

Also, I don't think he's implying that Mace is Yoda's equal, hence the qualifying statement regarding Vaapad making Mace equal to Sidious. (Stay out of this Arheal - don't have time for you right now). He was saying, I believe, that If Vaapad isn't what put Mace on equal ground with Sidious, then Mace must be Yoda's superior (which even if that were the case, I would strongly disagree w/ the latter part saying that Mace would be equal w/ Yoda - He is not).

I'm a bit lost on what we're discussing here. Yes Mace is incredibly fast. Clearly in league with Sidious during their duel, if Sidious is still a bit faster it's kind of irrelevant.

S66 was saying that Mace's comparable speed can only come from Vapaad, because Sidious's command of the Force is far greater. But even if it is from Vapaad, that's Mace's creation, and therefore that boost is coming from Mace's own command of the force.

Either way Mace is not as Powerful as Yoda, and Sidious is not as Skilled a Swordsman as Yoda. Yoda rules and every Sidious fan knows this deep down.

My original point was with Mace we have an example of a Jedi Master of the highest level not reaching his highest level of power and speed "Immediately". So it's easily possible that Sidious may also need some time to fight before he reaches his epitome in combat. Especially when Mace's style is a variant of Sidious's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm a bit lost on what we're discussing here. Yes Mace is incredibly fast. Clearly in league with Sidious during their duel, if Sidious is still a bit faster it's kind of irrelevant.

S66 was saying that Mace's comparable speed can only come from Vapaad, because Sidious's command of the Force is far greater. But even if it is from Vapaad, that's Mace's creation, and therefore that boost is coming from Mace's own command of the force.

Either way Mace is not as Powerful as Yoda, and Sidious is not as Skilled a Swordsman as Yoda. Yoda rules and every Sidious fan knows this deep down.

My original point was with Mace we have an example of a Jedi Master of the highest level not reaching his highest level of power and speed "Immediately". So it's easily possible that Sidious may also need some time to fight before he reaches his epitome in combat. Especially when Mace's style is a variant of Sidious's.

You don't think that Sidious' blitz against Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto is compatible with the notion that he doesn't need time to hit top speed? Sidious' blitz is absolute evidence that he doesn't need time to reach achieve that. This isn't Nascar or drag racing - but damn it feels like we're talking about cars instead of Force users.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I'd say the fact that Mace Windu was described as appearing to wield DOZENS of lightsabers attacking from every angle pretty much says what needs to be said with respect to this point.

Yes, and it says that he accepted Sidious' speed into himself to get faster than he is normally. Since he does that AFTER using Vapaad.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, and it says that he accepted Sidious' speed into himself to get faster than he is normally.

Indubitably!

Huh, I thought you were disagreeing with that idea.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Still cannot buy it. Yoda, who over the course of his 900 years FULLY mastered each and every form of lightsaber combat, is surely beyond Bondara in terms of sheer technical knowledge/skill with said lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, I thought you were disagreeing with that idea.

No, scrotum face, I wasn't. Hence why I said "which even if that were the case." 😎

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol. 900 years don't equate to FULLY mastering everything.

I FULLY mastered your mother.

💃

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I FULLY mastered your mother.

💃

Originally posted by Arhael
Nah, you would need 900 years for that. 😄

900 seconds 😎

Spoiler:
I is efficient.

Is that a euphemism for premature?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You don't think that Sidious' blitz against Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto is compatible with the notion that he doesn't need time to hit top speed? Sidious' blitz is absolute evidence that he doesn't need time to reach achieve that. This isn't Nascar or drag racing - but damn it feels like we're talking about cars instead of Force users.

I've not made a definite statement yet that Sidious requires time to reach his top speed.

I just said it's a possibility for why Sidious seems to be increasing speed when he's fighting Maul one on one in the novel, stating Anakin and Mace as examples.

Edit- Although as I've already pointed out it could also be how it seems to Maul when he gets Jar Kai'd by Sidious one on one.

I certainly don't think that's some kind of undeniable proof that Sidious is playing around with Maul and Savage. That seems to be the first thing that comes out of S66's mouth everytime Sidious is given a fight, or God forbid "almost bested".

But I personally think something like that needs to be stated and not just sort of hinted at.

I think it's pretty clear from the clips we've seen he's using top notch speed in combat against them. And it doesn't seem like he's playing around at all.

Also the fact that Sidious blitz Tiin, Kolar and Fisto doesn't necessarily mean that was his top speed. Even in the movie his flips against Mace later on were much faster.

It just means they were in way out of their league. Remember none of those 3 are even a match for Obi-Wan or Ventress. Kit Fisto is the closest to their level and he was able to last a few seconds against Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, and it says that he accepted Sidious' speed into himself to get faster than he is normally. Since he does that AFTER using Vapaad.

Well it never actually stated he got faster after accepting Sidious's speed.

And the statements about Mace's crazy speed was before that sentence anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol. 900 years don't equate to FULLY mastering everything.

Well we'd assume he was doing more than just twiddling his thumbs for the last 800+ years.

But I believe there is a canon source now that states Yoda has completely mastered every form. He is the best swordsman of the PT era.