Yoda & Obi-Wan vs Saruman & Sauron

Originally posted by quanchi112
Fire was a weakness of theirs so there's that part you conveniently keep leaving out.

What Gandalf demonstrated was very impressive and his hand to hand fight against the Balrog while falling shows how badass these Lord of the Rings characters are.

Destroying Gandalf's staff is very impressive when you look at his body of work from all three films. Gandalf was a beast and a balrog couldn't do so.

[B]Victory was near but the power of the ring could not be undone. It was in this moment when all hope had faded.

If you don't understand what the scene or the narrator is telling us then why debate at all ?

The attack was wrecking foes nearby his swipes. Look at it again see how easily the men in scores are going down and sauron's power crushes a sword under his boot heel.

Sauron levels them with but a few swings.
Like I said watch the scene he doesn't even need to hit them just the general vicinity. [/B]

Uh? It is? Was this specifically stated at some point?

Cool story bro. Not that the Witch King actually engaged Gandalf in an actual fight, but kay.

Not really, since Gandalf fought the Balrog physically. That has nothing to do with destroying Gandalf's staff with a spell.

And Galadriel is omnicient? Also, their king just died. That would kind of drain morale from the soldiers, not that that has him directly turning the tide of battle.

Those men aren't Obiwan and Yoda and that sword isn't a lightsaber.

Cool. Not that it matters when he will have a lightsaber sticking into his chest.

Eh it's really a case of Yoda vs Sauron to my mind.

Pulling off the ring with a gesture is ridiculous, since his hand will be gripping his weapon.

Just my opinion but two things that seem to have been ignored thus far;

- Saurons far superior range
- The fact, movie feat wise he's likely to one shot either jedi through any attempted block

Assuming Sauron fights Obi-wan first, he smacks the jedi into the afterlife the moment he moves into range. Obi-wan is much faster with a lightsaber, but that's irrelevant since I don't see him getting close enough for it to matter.

Saruman dies no matter who he fights. Why he's even a part of this is frankly a mystery.

Then it's Yoda vs Sauron. Strength vs Speed. And I honestly couldn't give an opinion on if I think Saurons excessive range and power advantage would be enough to get the hit on Yoda, who has movie feats of being highly nimble and able in combat despite such disadvantages.

So I'll finish by saying. If their weapons are light saber resistant, what about his armour? If it's even somewhat resistant maybe he can win. If not, Yoda can probably build up on injuries to cripple him before getting a fatal shot. But I'm honestly guessing for that fight.

@Quan: Why are the Nazgul even being discussed? You know just as much as I do that implied ability has absolutely no bearing in a debate, only the feats themselves matter.

The facts are that the two Jedi showed far quicker reflexes than Sauron, they possess the ability to knock him down with the force from a distance, can throw their lightsabers telekinetically from a distance, etc.

Sauron showed regular human speed, zero long range abilities, and got his hand cut off by a guy with a broken sword.

Nothing else matters.

Either Obi-Wan or Yoda can solo this match with paramount ease.

YouTube video

Check thirty seconds in.

That kind of speed is more than Sauron can begin to handle. Sure, it was a short burst, but it's more than enough to allow Obi or Yoda to cut off Sauron's hand or arm, or whatever, IMHO.

Word. There's also shenanigans like these

YouTube video

If Obi-Wan can handle General "Four lightsabers at once from all directions" Grievous, Sauron's attacks would be easily dogeable.

And that's not even counting the force push that launched Grievous 50 feet straight up into the air...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Uh? It is? Was this specifically stated at some point?

Cool story bro. Not that the Witch King actually engaged Gandalf in an actual fight, but kay.

Not really, since Gandalf fought the Balrog physically. That has nothing to do with destroying Gandalf's staff with a spell.

And Galadriel is omnicient? Also, their king just died. That would kind of drain morale from the soldiers, not that that has him directly turning the tide of battle.

Those men aren't Obiwan and Yoda and that sword isn't a lightsaber.

Cool. Not that it matters when he will have a lightsaber sticking into his chest.

Destroying Gandalf's staff is something the Balrog wasn't even able to do and the Witch King didn't have to destroy Gandalf.

Gandalf also resisted the Balrog's attacks through his staff initially. The staff didn't break at all against a Balrog who chased out an entire massive army of orcs.

So the narrator's words are what there to deceive the audience ? be serious you know exactly what her words meant. Acting like sauron didn't change the tide of battle even minus the dialog is hilarious. I mean victory was at hand to almost all hope had faded means what exactly ? Explain what exactly that means.

Obi Wan and Yoda have never ever been anywhere near as impressive in battle as sauron was here. Hell, Sauron rips through their bodies with a boot hell to the back. Again, Sauron's power and one swipe means means death for whichever jedi gets in his way. Sauron can solo this easily.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Palpatine was always crusty and old he only used his speed when he donned his light saber. Palpatine would get wrecked by a middle earth army. He can't stop arrows coming at all directions.

Sauron was around for a lot longer and faced off against other beings who were truly immortal.

The only advantage Palpatine had Sauron didn't was he masked himself from the jedi until it was too late.

No, Palpatine's crustiness increased profoundly by EP6. While ep 3 Palpatine may or may not get wrecked by a middle earth army (probably depends on size), we know he wouldn't get wrecked by a wounded man with a broken sword.

I'm sorry, which film did all this happen in? Because if you want to bring in written literature, than Palpatine solos all of middle earth and then goes and has himself a snack.

Again, cos he's smarter than Sauron.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
@Quan: Why are the Nazgul even being discussed? You know just as much as I do that implied ability has absolutely no bearing in a debate, only the feats themselves matter.

The facts are that the two Jedi showed far quicker reflexes than Sauron, they possess the ability to knock him down with the force from a distance, can throw their lightsabers telekinetically from a distance, etc.

Sauron showed regular human speed, zero long range abilities, and got his hand cut off by a guy with a broken sword.

Nothing else matters.

Either Obi-Wan or Yoda can solo this match with paramount ease.

Sauron doesn't need quick reflexes he just needs to swing his mace in their general direction and they die. I used a feat from his involvement in the movies to back up my case. I also think with the power of the ring and the strength of Sauron that tk would do jack in this fight.

Sauron left himself vulnerable against an opponent with a lucky strike. That doesn't mean Isildur defeats Sauron one on one in a forum battle it just means this is how it played out with all the variables which took place in the movie.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, Palpatine's crustiness increased profoundly by EP6. While ep 3 Palpatine may or may not get wrecked by a middle earth army (probably depends on size), we know he wouldn't get wrecked by a wounded man with a broken sword.

I'm sorry, which film did all this happen in? Because if you want to bring in written literature, than Palpatine solos all of middle earth and then goes and has himself a snack.

Again, cos he's smarter than Sauron.

I can say this going by the same school of thought that there's no way Vader is going to pick up Sauron and overpower him over the edge like he did to Palpatine. His history prior to the film and in the film he still existed until the ring was destroyed for a lot longer than the brief period Palpatine held sway in Star Wars.

Sauron deceived the entire planet again and Palpatine wasn't as brilliant because in the end Vader killed him and chose his own son over Palpatine so critical error which cost someone who already held complete power over a galaxy to put himself in an extremely toxic situation. That's much worse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If he made himsel fvulnerable and reached down in the same manner I see no reason why the same result wouldn't occur. I don't think this attack would kill him only cause a finger or so to be lost so unlike sauron which this proved to be fatal to (not really but it did destroy his body).

I can say this going by the same school of thought that there's no way Vader is going to pick up Sauron and overpower him over the edge like he did to Palpatine. His history prior to the film and in the film he still existed until the ring was destroyed for a lot longer than the brief period Palpatine held sway in Star Wars.

Sauron deceived the entire planet again and Palpatine wasn't as brilliant because in the end Vader killed him and chose his own son over Palpatine so critical error which cost someone who already held complete power over a galaxy to put himself in an extremely toxic situation. That's much worse.

If? He didn't.

No, you can't bring in written works when you see fit. Vader could pick up Sauron with the Force if need be, Vader would also utterly wreck Sauron. Sauron existed as a giant seeing eye for an age. Palpatine ruled a galaxy for 20 odd years. The later is more impressive.

[repeat]Palpatine orchestrated the creation of a galactic empire with himself as the head, this is far more brilliant than anything Sauron is seen doing. Palpatine's error with Vader/Luke is not even as stupid as allowing your ring/finger(your apparent weakness) to be cut off by an injured man.

Originally posted by Robtard
If? He didn't.

No, you can't bring in written works when you see fit. Vader could pick up Sauron with the Force if need be, Vader would also utterly wreck Sauron. Sauron existed as a giant seeing eye for an age. Palpatine ruled a galaxy for 20 odd years. The later is more impressive.

[repeat]Palpatine orchestrated the creation of a galactic empire with himself as the head, this is far more brilliant than anything Sauron is seen doing. Palpatine's error with Vader/Luke is not even as stupid as allowing your ring/finger(your apparent weakness) to be cut off by an injured man.

They allude to this in the movie the time frame and it's many years afterwards where he still exists as the Eye. Sauron existed prior to his scene in the film according to the film. That's a fact and one in which the movie supports. Unlike Palpatine Sauron can survive having his body destroyed.

Sauron wasn't killed by this error whereas Palpatine was. Palpatine was an unseen villain that's the only advantage he had sauron was right out in the open and once Palpatine was discovered windu beat his ass in battle. That's not very impressive or brilliant.

😐

[list=1]
[*]This section of the board concerns itself with developments and feats from the films alone; what the novels say are ultimately irrelevant.
[*]Implications of power from the films similarly fail to further the argument that Sauron and Saruman emerge victorious, because it is heavily implied within the films that the power of the Force transcends planet-vaporizing superweapons in magnitude, which is a good deal more than what the Dark Lord and the White Wizard could bring to bear.
[*]Yoda and Obi-Wan demonstrate superhuman durability and stamina throughout the films; they fall from tremendous heights and endure crushing strikes and typically emerged unscathed. There is no indication that Sauron, even if he did strike, would kill them.
[*]The reflexes and speed of Obi-Wan and Yoda are demonstrably superior to Sauron, Saruman, and their victims.
[*]Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrate sufficient strength in the Force as to be able to telekinetically manhandle either opponent without difficulty.
[/list=1]

Conclusion: The Middle-Earthlings die. Hard.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
😐

[list=1]
[*]This section of the board concerns itself with developments and feats from the films alone; what the novels say are ultimately irrelevant.
[*]Implications of power from the films similarly fail to further the argument that Sauron and Saruman emerge victorious, because it is heavily implied within the films that the power of the Force transcends planet-vaporizing superweapons in magnitude, which is a good deal more than what the Dark Lord and the White Wizard could bring to bear.
[*]Yoda and Obi-Wan demonstrate superhuman durability and stamina throughout the films; they fall from tremendous heights and endure crushing strikes and typically emerged unscathed. There is no indication that Sauron, even if he did strike, would kill them.
[*]The reflexes and speed of Obi-Wan and Yoda are demonstrably superior to Sauron, Saruman, and their victims.
[*]Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrate sufficient strength in the Force as to be able to telekinetically manhandle either opponent without difficulty.
[/list=1]

Conclusion: The Middle-Earthlings die. Hard.

🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron did so and this is why he lost not that he was skillfully bested just the perfect strike to separate himself from the ring.

They allude to this in the movie the time frame and it's many years afterwards where he still exists as the Eye. Sauron existed prior to his scene in the film according to the film. That's a fact and one in which the movie supports. Unlike Palpatine Sauron can survive having his body destroyed.

Sauron wasn't killed by this error whereas Palpatine was. Palpatine was an unseen villain that's the only advantage he had sauron was right out in the open and once Palpatine was discovered windu beat his ass in battle. That's not very impressive or brilliant.

Not sure how you can imply that Palpatine is an idiot for allowing himself to be back-stabbed by Vader (who was loyal for 20 odd years), but completely disregard that Sauron placing his ring/weakness im danger as being utterly moronic.

Great, he existed, that's not in debate, what is are your claims that he kicked the asses of other immortals and such. Yes, he can survive as a giant eye, which he did for an age before having his plans defeated again and this time destroyed.

Yeah, putting his hand in the line of danger would be an "error", it would be a moronic critical error. Turning Anakin to the darkside was his plan at least mid-way through ep2 (if not earlier), so it seems his plans worked out, considering he created said galactic empire. How did Sauron's plans work out for him? Defeated twice.

Q
1. I am using the films alone to prove my points.

If that's what you're doing, your definition of 'prove' differs wildly from mine. mmm

Q
No it doesn't. I've seen force users go down in flames when order 66 went out and the rest of the jedi hiding out after their attack on Palpatine failed.

That's just the point, though, isn't it? Implications remain so for a reason: They could very well be demonstrably false. Which is why you need to stick to hard fact and basic deduction, not grotesque extrapolation and assumptions.

Q
3.Yoda was ko'd briefly by one Palpatine lightning blast and sent flying the second time he actually tried redirecting it. That's not very impressive considering Palpatine has never killed anyone by force lightning alone unless under the duress of it for an amount of time.

Palpatine has never hurled a sustained gout of lightning at an opponent who was unable to block it, with the exception of Mace Windu, who died in the assault. When Yoda was caught off guard, it was a single blast, when he tried it again, Yoda was using the Force to repulse it.

Q
Luke walked away from it after he admitted he was going to kill him with it with no effects moments later. Not impressed me thinks.

That might have had to do with the fact that he was... torturing him? mmm

Q
4.Sauron just has to swing his mace in their general direction and it's game over.

Because you say so? Well we can do that too: Yoda and Obi-Wan gesture and render Sauron unconscious and then proceed to shove said mace into the Dark Lord's random Dark Orifice.

And since there seem to be more of us on the Jedi's side, arguing through sheer fiat isn't a winning tactic.

Q
The degree of difficulty isn't that high in what I am suggesting.

Neither is the degree in brainpower, given the tenor of your arguments and your willful disregard of the source material.

Q
5.Power and strength can resist force users otherwise weight would hold no relevance under the strain of the tk user. Thre power sauron wields is too much to hold in check.

Sauron is a large man. You'd need to prove that his weight is sufficient to hamper the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I suggest you get to it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure how you can imply that Palpatine is an idiot for allowing himself to be back-stabbed by Vader (who was loyal for 20 odd years), but completely disregard that Sauron placing his ring/weakness im danger as being utterly moronic.

Great, he existed, that's not in debate, what is are your claims that he kicked the asses of other immortals and such. Yes, he can survive as a giant eye, which he did for an age before having his plans defeated again and this time destroyed.

Yeah, putting his hand in the line of danger would be an "error", it would be a moronic critical error. Turning Anakin to the darkside was his plan at least mid-way through ep2 (if not earlier), so it seems his plans worked out, considering he created said galactic empire. How did Sauron's plans work out for him? Defeated twice.

Sauron kicked immortals asses on screen. The elves were immortal and feared him.

In the end all baddies most lose but losing in battle with all kinds of variables coming at you while Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu and then put himself in harms way at the height of power when he didn't need to.

quanchi
What kind of an idiot doesn't foresee complications arising in this ?

facepalm

Probably the same kind of idiot who doesn't foresee complications (cutting off the finger that carries the source of his power) arising in a battle involving thousands of enemies each wielding razor sharp weapons.

😂

Sauron was killed by a wounded man with a broken sword on-screen too.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If that's what you're doing, your definition of 'prove' differs wildly from mine. mmm

That's just the point, though, isn't it? Implications remain so for a reason: They could very well be demonstrably false. Which is why you need to stick to hard fact and basic deduction, not grotesque extrapolation and assumptions.

Palpatine has never hurled a sustained gout of lightning at an opponent who was unable to block it, with the exception of Mace Windu, who died in the assault. When Yoda was caught off guard, it was a single blast, when he tried it again, Yoda was using the Force to repulse it.

That might have had to do with the fact that he was... torturing him? mmm

Because you say so? Well we can do that too: Yoda and Obi-Wan gesture and render Sauron unconscious and then proceed to shove said mace into the Dark Lord's random Dark Orifice.

And since there seem to be more of us on the Jedi's side, arguing through sheer fiat isn't a winning tactic.

Neither is the degree in brainpower, given the tenor of your arguments and your willful disregard of the source material.

Sauron is a large man. You'd need to prove that his weight is sufficient to hamper the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I suggest you get to it.

I've seen a force user and a pretty competent one in Yoda use all his concentration and struggle with very large objects which aren't resisting him and most of these debates require implications since they've never met each other. If they all existed in the same universe we'd know exactly how their powers would match up against each other.

Palpatine hurled it at Luke and it even hit him when it was redirected. It's weak. Nothing has ever shown it to be fatal unless under a prolonged time I'd imagine.

Mace Windu wasn't killed or you can't prove he was by the lightning but the fall sure was going to kill him either way.

He clearly states now you will die and despite him wanting to kill him with it he walks away with no long term damage. The blasts prior to were for torturing.

We see Sauron do so on film. Sauron actually is killing these men as well and destroys a sword simply by stepping on it. Yoda never ever took out an elite opponent by gesturing their way. Also if force lightning which didn't ko Luke can ko Yoda I don't have high hopes for his durability.

I haven't disregarded anything of the sort. I am simply going with the more logical outcome here.

So what kind of strength do you think Sauron has to send multiple battle armored men in the air 30 or so feet or to crush swords by stepping on them. I guess you don't feel he's strong and you're being unreasonable again. It's ok.

NemeBro
Sauron was killed by a wounded man with a broken sword on-screen too.

With all due respect to this quanchi fellow (I leave it to you all to interpret how much respect that is), I'm not sure anyone will gain traction in this argument. As demonstrated here and in the thread involving Voldemort and the One Ring, he sees fit to disregard the events of the films and rewrite them at will.

I'm going to quit while I'm ahead, but it'll be interesting to see where this goes.