Yoda & Obi-Wan vs Saruman & Sauron

Started by Robtard6 pages

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron wasn't killed when he lost his ring whereas Palpatine was completely destroyed. Dying in battle in terms of intelligence is fr superior then being caught completely off guard while your head enforcer is watching you kill his son. What kind of an idiot doesn't foresee complications arising in this ?

Sauron kicked immortals asses on screen. The elves were immortal and feared him.

In the end all baddies most lose but losing in battle with all kinds of variables coming at you while Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu and then put himself in harms way at the height of power when he didn't need to.

Again, Palpatine's plans worked out for him, he created his galactic empire. Sauron failed twice in trying to dominate some lands. Who's the idiot?

Hahah. Ah, so the Elves you meant now. Well. Palpatine would kill elves just fine.

Again. Which leader had their plans come to fruition and which leader was defeated twice? That simple, really.

Originally posted by Robtard
Again, Palpatine's plans worked out for him, he created his galactic empire. Sauron failed twice in trying to dominate some lands. Who's the idiot?

Ah, so the Elves. Well, Yoda and Obi Wan would kick their asses too.

Again. Who which leader had their plans come to fruition and which leader was defeated twice? That simple, really.

Sauron survived despite having his body destroyed. Not foreseeing someone betraying you while attempting to murder their own son in front of them has to be one of the stupidest and easy to see ways of death ever captured on screen.

Yoda and Obi would fail just like they did in Star Wars. Yoda would then retreat and live out his days as a hermit again.

Palpatine's plans came true because Anakin intervened and saved his miserable life the moment he was defeated in battle once the jedi became aware of who he really was. Being lucky and begging for your life to later die in the fetal position while screaming to your death isn't impressive.

Sauron outlived his initial defeat while Palpatine just died when his plans utterly failed of turning Luke to the dark side.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron survived despite having his body destroyed. Not foreseeing someone betraying you while attempting to murder their own son in front of them has to be one of the stupidest and easy to see ways of death ever captured on screen.

Yoda and Obi would fail just like they did in Star Wars. Yoda would then retreat and live out his days as a hermit again.

Palpatine's plans came true because Anakin intervened and saved his miserable life the moment he was defeated in battle once the jedi became aware of who he really was. Being lucky and begging for your life to later die in the fetal position while screaming to your death isn't impressive.

Sauron outlived his initial defeat while Palpatine just died when his plans utterly failed of turning Luke to the dark side.

Yes, we covered this. He survived as a giant eye for an age only to have his plans fail and be defeated again; this time destroyed.

Really depends on the size of the middle earth army; they do a lot of damage before going down. But what wouldn't happen, they'd not stupidly lose via injured man with a broken blade. While a small unit of clones would wreck Sauron.

Palpatine's plans worked, he was trying to convert Anakin early on. Palpatine is 1-1. Sauron is 0-2. That simply, really.

He "lived" to just fail again. ie why his record is a miserable 0-2.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, we covered this. He survived as a giant eye for an age only to have his plans fail and be defeated again; this time destroyed.

Really depends on the size of the middle earth army; they do a lot of damage before going down. But what wouldn't happen, they'd not stupidly lose via injured man with a broken blade. While a small unit of clones would wreck Sauron.

Palpatine's plans worked, he was trying to convert Anakin early on. Palpatine is 1-1. Sauron is 0-2. That simply, really.

He "lived" to just fail again. ie why his record is a miserable 0-2.

Yes, he did survive and was finally destroyed due to Gollum's obsession with the ring. All baddies lose sooner or later but best to die like men like babies screaming down shafts of doom.

They'd lose not to a lucky strike that cuts off a finger but by being overwhelmed.

Palpatine was lucky. He begged for his life against windu and Anakin granted his wish. Once Anakin tired of Palpatine's obsession with the dark side he tossed him down a shaft.

Sauron's victory was forging the ring and binding the world in darkness. Sauron turned the tide of battle unlike Palpatine who tried fleeing from Yoda, begged for his life against Windu, and then screamed like a baby when Vader hip tossed him to his death. Not really the stuff of courage.

Sauron had no victory. Dude is 0-2. Accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sauron had no victory. Dude is 0-2. Accept it.
Handing out the rings was his initial victory. Was his plan to dupe over men and such with the rings or wasn't it ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Handing out the rings was his initial victory. Was his plan to dupe over men and such with the rings or wasn't it ?

And how did that work out for him? Defeated at the war of the last alliance and then destroyed by a hobbit.

Dude is 0-2, accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
And how did that work out for him? Defeated at the war of the last alliance and then destroyed by a hobbit.

Dude is 0-2, accept it.

Just like Palpatine they both were defeated like most evil baddies.

Sauron only truly lost once when the ring was destroyed but Fordo was seduced by it and if it wasn't for Gollum's interference sauron would have returned.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just like Palpatine they both were defeated like most evil baddies.

Sauron only truly lost once when the ring was destroyed but Fordo was seduced by it and if it wasn't for Gollum's interference sauron would have returned.

No, not "just like" Palpatine. Palpatine has a record of 1-1, his initial plan of conquering a galaxy worked.

No, 0-2, just accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, not "just like" Palpatine. Palpatine has a record of 1-1, his initial plan of conquering a galaxy worked.

No, 0-2, just accept it.

Wrong. Palpatine was spared by Anakin's hand he in a sense got beaten by Windu one on one.

Sauron's initial plan of forging the rings and passing them out worked as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wrong. Palpatine was spared by Anakin's hand he in a sense got beaten by Windu one on one.

Sauron's initial plan of forging the rings and passing them out worked as well.

Palpatine's plan to conquer the galaxy worked. Little slips along the way doesn't mean the plain failed. He's 1-1.

So you're taking one facet of Sauron's plan and saying that was a win in of itself but ignoring that he his goals where crushed twice? LoL. Sauron is 0-2, accept it.

One guy conquered a galaxy; the other guy failed to conquer part of a world/planet(twice no less). That simple, really.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palpatine's plan to conquer the galaxy worked. Little slips along the way doesn't mean the plain failed. He's 1-1.

So you're taking one facet of Sauron's plan and saying that was a win in of itself but ignoring that he his goals where crushed twice? LoL. Sauron is 0-2, accept it.

One guy conquered a galaxy; the other guy failed to conquer part of a world/planet(twice no less). That simple, really.

Palpatine wanted to destroy the entire jedi order so he failed and in the end it cost him.

Sauron's initial plan of corrupting the world succeeded whereas his plan to rule over the entire realm stopped short just like Palpatine's plan of destroying the entire jedi order stopped short.

Palpatine was also lucky to live as long as he did due to Anakin's womanly fear of losing Padme.

LoL, his ultimate plan was to conquer a galaxy; it worked. Little slip-ups like two Jedi escaping doesn't negate that.

Sauron did not "corrupt the world", since we had the war of the final allianace. There were those who joined together to fight against the great evil, that was the point.

Palpatine didn't rely much on luck, he was a master planer and schemer. Now Sauron was lucky Isildor was a weak-willed *****, else Sauron would have been ultimately destroyed in the second age, nice of you to ignore that.

Final score. Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2.

Way to go with the misdirection, Quan. Stay on target.

That being said, if this is movie version, Legolas solos all of Mordor after being mind tricked by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Movie feats for Middle-Earth villains are few and far in between. The only thing I could agree on is that Sauron's melee hits are incredibly strong and could incap Obi or Yoda should it hit. Considering the reflexes, Force-aided speed boost, and precog of his opponents, Sauron would be lucky to land such a blow.

Saruman is a non-factor. His voice wouldn't aid him here, and his wizard abilities in the movie are limited to chanting up storms (irrelevant), getting really close and TKing with his staff (useless) and a fireball of dubious quality (avoidable). He might as well sit on the sidelines.

Meanwhile, Sauron is slow moving, has one mode of attack (swing mace back and forth), and his magical powers are not detailed in the movie. In combat, he uses none. Assuming powers based on the actions of the Nazgul is silly; that's like saying Mace Windu has Shatterpoint; therefore Yoda does too. You can only conclude that he can be physically cut into pieces and rendered KO'd for the purpose of the battle.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, his ultimate plan was to conquer a galaxy; it worked. Little slip-ups like two Jedi escaping doesn't negate that.

Sauron did not "corrupt the world", since we had the war of the final allianace. There were those who joined together to fight against the great evil, that was the point.

Palpatine didn't rely much on luck, he was a master planer and schemer. Now Sauron was lucky Isildor was a weak-willed *****, else Sauron would have been ultimately destroyed in the second age, nice of you to ignore that.

Final score. Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2.

Yoda and Obi aren't minor jedi they were crucial and the resistance was never defeated. The world was corrupted but wasn't completely under his control just like the galaxy wasn't ever completely under Palpatine's control.

Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu. We see his skills completely fail against Windu and we also see Palpatine caught completely off guard by Yoda's attack on his life.

Everyone in lotr feared the ring which included Gandalf as well. You put the ring on you are going to submit sooner or later. Gandalf knew not to put it on.

Sauron living past his initial defeat>>Palpatine dying in the fetal position while supplying the means to his defeat.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Way to go with the misdirection, Quan. Stay on target.

That being said, if this is movie version, Legolas solos all of Mordor after being mind tricked by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Movie feats for Middle-Earth villains are few and far in between. The only thing I could agree on is that Sauron's melee hits are incredibly strong and could incap Obi or Yoda should it hit. Considering the reflexes, Force-aided speed boost, and precog of his opponents, Sauron would be lucky to land such a blow.

Saruman is a non-factor. His voice wouldn't aid him here, and his wizard abilities in the movie are limited to chanting up storms (irrelevant), getting really close and TKing with his staff (useless) and a fireball of dubious quality (avoidable). He might as well sit on the sidelines.

Meanwhile, Sauron is slow moving, has one mode of attack (swing mace back and forth), and his magical powers are not detailed in the movie. In combat, he uses none. Assuming powers based on the actions of the Nazgul is silly; that's like saying Mace Windu has Shatterpoint; therefore Yoda does too. You can only conclude that he can be physically cut into pieces and rendered KO'd for the purpose of the battle.

I unlike you can debate a myriad of topics please try and relax for a moment. Legolas can't beat Gandalf, Saruman, the Balrog, nor the Witch King, nor even stand a chance against Sauron. Nice try wanking his feats and dismissing the portrayal of the movies but not on my watch.

Tking sure disarmed Obi Wan so I see no reason why he's irrelevant here. I'm sure he will have some nice feats coming up in the hobbit as well since you're completely dependent on feats and have no way of comprehending portrayals it will at least make more sense to you.

Assuming Sauron gives powers to Witch King but doesn't possess them himself is silly since he's portrayed as vastly superior to the Nazgul. Sauron has to only hit in the general direction and it's a wrap. Saruman can keep them honest with his tk and fireballs while Sauron just has to swing and amp himself with his ring.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda and Obi aren't minor jedi they were crucial and the resistance was never defeated. The world was corrupted but wasn't completely under his control just like the galaxy wasn't ever completely under Palpatine's control.

Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu. We see his skills completely fail against Windu and we also see Palpatine caught completely off guard by Yoda's attack on his life.

Everyone in lotr feared the ring which included Gandalf as well. You put the ring on you are going to submit sooner or later. Gandalf knew not to put it on.

Sauron living past his initial defeat>>Palpatine dying in the fetal position while supplying the means to his defeat.

Galactic Empire was achieved. Enslavement of part of a world failed twice. So the score is still Palpatine 1-1; Sauron 0-2, just accept it.

Mace is no smuck; he'd wreck Sauron too. Froce-crush his little hand, making Sauron drop his mace on his foot.

Frodo did pretty well, considering he took it all the way to Mordor. But this is irrelevant.

Repeat: Sauron getting pwned by an injured man and being turned into a giant eye for an age isn't greater than Palpatine creating a galactic empire and then ruling it for 20 years.

Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2. That simple.

Originally posted by Robtard
Galactic Empire was achieved. Enslavement of part of a world failed twice. So the score is still Palpatine 1-1; Sauron 0-2, just accept it.

Mace is no smuck; he'd wreck Sauron too. Froce-crush his little hand, making Sauron drop his mace on his foot.

Frodo did pretty well, considering he took it all the way to Mordor. But this is irrelevant.

Repeat: Sauron getting pwned by an injured man and being turned into a giant eye for an age isn't greater than Palpatine creating a galactic empire and then ruling it for 20 years.

Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2. That simple.

Rings were forged and just like Palpatine there were those who resisted but unlike sauron who didn't beg for his life he wasn't resucured like a fair maiden by the hands of Anakin.

Mace would be annihilated by Sauron. He's just too powerful from a stronger verse where magic makes jedi and sith look inferior.

He failed right at the finish line which shows you how powerful the ring's hold is over the wearer.

Cutting a finger off with a lucky strike is all that occurred. Palpatine getting waxed by Windu and trying to run from Yoda shows his true colors.

Sauron has the advantage.

Wow. I have to cast my judgement here, and that would be, that you people do terrible suck, each side for different reasons. Ignoring the pointless feat war business going on here ("But Sidious ruled a galaxy..." Who the hell cares?), lets break this fight down for you.

Known combat-related feats

Yoda and Obi-Wan
[list]
[*]various instances of telekinesis, ranging from tossing humans around (Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith) to the levitation of seemingly massive metal structures (Yoda, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith
[*]precognition, which allows Jedi to react extremely fast on attacks directed at them
[*]force enhanced speed, allowing Obi-Wan to handle an opponent wielding four lightsabers (Revenge of the Sith) and granting Yoda the ability to deflect roughly 40 blaster bolts in round about 3 seconds (Revenge of the Sith)
[*]lightsaber skill
[/list]

Saruman and Sauron
[list]
[*]various instances of telekinesis. Saruman has been shown to tossing Gandalf around like a ragdoll (Fellowship of the Ring), while one could argue, that Sauron's mace emits some telekinetic waves in order to throw people around.
[*]if you don't want to accept the latter point, one would need to add "superhuman strength" to Saurons abilities, able to toss dozens of human beings in full armor around like ragdolls - which is probably true regardless of the first argument, because the guy is a freaking giant that towers above the elves and men alike.
[*]mind-control over a rather huge distance (Saruman mind controlling Theoden in The Two Towers)
[*]influencing people by talking to them (implied for Saruman in The Two Towers and Return of the King)
[*]throwing fireballs (Saruman in the Return of the King extended cut)
[*]influencing / controlling the weather, specifically lightning (Saruman in Fellowship of the Ring)
[/list]

Those are the feats that I can list on top of my head. One could make the assertion, that Saruman does possess the same powers Gandalf has demonstrated throughout the series. That would be:

[list]
[*]creation of magical shields against physical/magical attacks (Gandalf fighting the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring)
[*]dealing damage to inanimate objects almost at will (Gandalf destroying the bridge under the Balrog in Fellowship
[*]extreme fast reaction time (Gandalf deflecting arrow shot at him by Legolas in The Two Towers)
[*]ability to work several magical effects a the same time (Gandalf upon meeting the trio of Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn heats up Aragorns sword, causing him to trop it, blinds the trio, deflects the arrow and sets it aflame)
[*]ability to channel blinding lights in forms of beams / waves (The Two Towers against the Orc army; Return of the King against the Nazghul)
[*]ability to summon lightning at will (used by Gandalf to kill the Balrog, The Two Towers)
[*]very high resistance to actual physical damage, if we consider Gandalfs fall into the depths of Moria.
[/list]

Since Sauron is more powerful than either Gandalf and Saruman (by their own admissions respectively), one could also make the guess, that he would be able to reproduce their feats, perhabs on an even greater scale. The rest of the saga (not taken into account here usually) would also point to that idea.

Conclusions

From the presented material, one could probably conclude, that the Jedi would overwhelm Saruman and Sauron in a straight forward melee fight. Yoda appears much faster than either member of the middle-earth team and could probably run circles around either of the two opponents. Kenobi handles his weapon well enough to draw out fights for a very long time, even when facing skilled fighters. Additionally, one should assume that, if a piece of wood is enough to kill Saruman - even if he has some superhuman ability to tank physical damage - a lightsaber would certainly be enough to do the job. The same can be said about Sauron, because a lightsaber is certainly the better weaponary compared to some metal sword. Correct?

Wrong. The crux with the latter point is, that Sauron wasn't defeated with an ordinary blade. The sword (Narsil) that Isildur did utilize there is clearly magical, given that it stays sharp, despite lying around in shreds for more than 3000 years (Boromir cuts himself with the blade in The Fellowship of the ring) and the fact that it is capable to withstand the attacks of ghosts (as seen when Aragorn confronts the King of the Ghost Army in The Return of the King). Thus it is rather questionable if Sauron while wearing the ring can be touched by any ordinary weapon - even if said weapon is a lightsaber. The commentary to the introduction of "FotR" clearly states, that "[...]Victory was near. But the power of the Ring could not be undone."

If that is to be taken as truth, it's rather questionable if Sauron can be defeated at all, unless some magical weapon is used.

Another setup for this fight could result in a totally different outcome: If the opponents decide to exchange first blows over a certain distance, it would seem that the Jedi just have a small chance of overcoming their opposition, because in the "magic and force"-department, Obi-Wan is probably the least capable of all four combatants. And I can't see Yoda removing one of the opponents from the fight with a force push either.

Considering this ideas, I would have to support the idea that Team Middle-Earth might win this little confrontation here, but only barely. That depends upon whether one thinks, that the Jedi can make it into melee range and whether Sauron can be harmed with a "regular" weapon while wearing the One Ring.

Someone needs a hug.

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