Dante (DMC) vs. Carnifex (40k)

im pretty sure dante has to run the same hoops as nero had to for game balancing. not because he didnt have it. would be kind of cheap if he could just insta bypass that, wouldnt it? he could still do it, in the lore.. it would just be cheap for the games sake. its a thing of deciding how you want to have dante presented. by the lores sake of him at the time of devil may cry 4? or just the game stats of him by devil may cry 4? i believe i was already told using in game stats was out, and lore was in. so someone please make up their mind about it to i can present an acceptable case.. please?

and scen. good freakin point. power weapons, as discribed in the codex's ive read dont really specify the exact action of how it works. in fact, its quite the opposite. they specify that no-one outside of the adeptus mechanicus really understand how they work. and most power weapons are relics from the dark age of the technology. im pretty sure they cant create new power weapons anymore, as the standard construction templates for it were lost.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
its still a thing where you're comparing dante without him using his devil trigger. a dante at marvell vs capcom standards.. (which is a crazy watered down dante) and everything about dante in dmc4 was him toying around. taking nothing seriously, and not even bothering with his demonic powers. which is because he didnt need to. nero was doing all the heavy lifting while dante was sitting back and smirking, seeing what nero could do.

it seems to be the general view from you guys that all of dantes demonic powers couldnt hold a candle to demonic powers from 40k. even though its all still demonic energy. and dantes powers, in DT form come from the demon worlds very best warrior. 40k technology is greater, naturally. and his sword on its own using dantes normal strength wont do anything unless he hits an eye.

but when you add dantes demon realm powers into the mix.. (which he held himself back ALOT from in dmc4) his speed is faster, strength is greater, hes constantly regenerating, and theres alot of energy going through that blade. and the sparta blade, changing shape. (i was also trying to show you the demonic energy rushing through it) imagine he stabs the sword tip into a fex, and then it changes into spear form, impaling it like crazy. and then to scythe, shredding its organs from within.

carnifexes are still just biological creatures. they dont have supernatural abilities besides being controlled by the hive mind. so they all have the same weakness as anything else alive. namely, all the squishy vital bits like eyes, brain, and organs. so! even regular grenades going off in a fex's eye socket are going to tear the living hell out of it. and possibly kill it. even if each missile only cracks its face chitin open... it still makes the fex about as strong as a boss battle battle in game. meaning many, many, many more rockets into its face, while dodging it can still bring it down.

dantes used to facing really powerful and big things. the fex is used to being the really powerful and big thing. so. heres my last statement on my opinion.

dante without devil trigger stands no chance in hell of doing more than pissing it off. his sword and natural strength would mean nothing to it. his speed would keep him alive long enough to annoy the ever living CRAP out of it, though. which would be amusing, though fruitless.

but dante pulling his demonic powers into the mix? dead fex. boss battle style.

That does not make up for the lack of feats, also Nero impales Dante who then admits he may have underestimated him so I dont think Nero is that much below Dante to the point of being nothing but an amusement. Sure Dante toys around, but that does not mean anything unless you can show me him not toying around and doing things you belive he can do.

Their not the same demonic energy though, Dantes demonic powers allow him to fly and such yes, but Demons and the powers of Chaos can create planetwide terror, many demons like the Heart of blood from "dead sky, black sun" could leap into a vast legion of iron warriors with titans and super tanks and decimate them, cherubael as you mentioned can knock out a War titna with ease, a Titan built to take on armies or cities. Dante could never hope to defeat legions of space marines or chaos marines, or their super weapons.

If a Carnifex can take tank punishment I dont see how Dantes going to be able to pierce anywhere but its eyes, if it turns into a halberd, spear or axe w/e then its going to be using more surface area. Spardas blade is a pretty big weapon, which is a downside for surface areas.

I think his demon powers only help him so far, hes never used Demon power to penetrate something like a 40k tank, which is the Tyranids Carnifex in a whole, which is arguably far superior. In Warrios of ultramar it was a beast, even uriel ventris, captain of the space marines who had faced the nightbringer (albiest in a weaker state) was beliving it to be his last if it were not for the guardsmen with a rocket launcher.

I agree with you however that Dante, unless Screampaste forbids it should still have his time powers and any power he gained in previous games, not tools obviously since he does not carry every weapon from all the games with him at once but powers? he cant lose them logically unless the canon states it. So hes still got doppleganger and Quicker silver.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I think I missed something here. Where did antimatter come from? Power weapons have a matter disruption field, which is not the same thing.

He refered to it as antimatter field so I thought I would use his term.

sigh. its a comparison. [quote] An awful one.
[quote]dante was the son of the most badass demonic guy in the mythos. period.

and mundus had power enough to rip open holes in time and space,

create entire realities and living beings at a whim

throwing down and destroying planetary bodies was nothing for him.

planetary bodies meaning meteors and satalites.

he even corrupted and turns dantes own brother. sound similar to turning and corrupting primarchs? thats pretty powerful chaos shit right there.

once you establish a base of powers thrown at each one, you can accurately assess whats going on. punching down mountains, and destroying entire cities sounds pretty much like that giant stone "god" in dmc4. which dante had zero issues with.

and while a carnifex is immensely badass, lets face it.. its no trygon, or bio-titan. (which, dantes been swallowed by a bio-titan sized leviathon before and killed it from the inside out, too) you guys are really selling dante too short. with his daemonic powers, hes like a powerful demon of the warp facing a carnifex. and im pretty much seeing it go this way.

and im pretty much seeing it go this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOXq01UJBBM
vital, weak points targeted and taken out. fast, and easy. not to mention, again.. that its a basic fex. pretty much only relying on its own muscle and claws.

now isnt that about the size and destructive power of a war titan?

dante with his dimention shattering, dragon-throwing, (yeah, he did that in the first game, created a dragon out of demonic energy and fired it at the final boss. broke through magical barriers and did MASSIVE damage) self regenerating, demonicly psuedo-god killing powers would easily be able to stop a fex.

EDIT: actually.. a more difficult fight would be dante vs a swarmlord. THAT shit would be hard to call.. though id have to say i would be in favor of the swarmlord..

and also.. the fex's arent all that indestructable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bWEz4ME-M
im pretty sure those space marine captains totally dig their power swords into its face and eye sockets to bring it down. so it DOES have weak points to be easily exploited.

Not months. It's just not happening. If it couldn't regenerate maybe, but high durability plus regeneration is overkill.

i was pretty sure i posted vids intailing dantes DT forms against mundus, pretty much being the only fight hes (argueably) taken seriously, and used his powers to their fullest extent. his sword slashes send energy that cut into the air far past his own reach. he can conjure and launch a giant dragon of demonic flame and magma which breaks through magical barriers and deals crazy high damage. its in game actions you as a player can do during the flying boss battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqpzKsiurY
jump to 5:00 in.. its about there.

and he has broken down demon-enhanced tanks and choppers in dmc 2. they werent even sub-bosses to him. they just took some time to crack their shells. so argueably, he COULD penetrate tanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ke7wXnmio
about 5:15 in on that one.. the player is kind of crappy, so dont take that as a representation of dante himself.

i do realise 40k tanks are alot stronger, but again it falls into his DT state helping him bash and slice through powerful things. im still seeing coming down to a carnifex equating to a main boss on hard mode to him.. still defeatable, but able to kill him, just like anything else. toe to toe, blow for blow. dante will lose. he cant match the strenth of force, or the shrugging off of damage the fex can.

but thats not how dante fights, thats how the fex fights. dante makes sure he doesnt get hit, and will whittle it down, and DT into its weak points at the fight goes on. and even if dante gets hit. who he is and his CONSTANT impalements, and being eaten.. (it happens alot to him, and aperrently its no big deal) would only hurt him, not outright kill. and the shockwave from him going into Dt form COULD break a fex's hold on him.

and you guys keep thinking i mentioned cherubael as a representation of dantes power. i brought him up as a representation of something that killed a war titan got beat by a human. so something like a carnifex could be taken out by dante. its actually MUCH less of a power gap between dante and the fex.

its still down to.. dantes beat demons and monsters similar in strength and size to a fex. regularly. and those demons in 40k spreading planet-wide terror.. thats not each one, by itself doing that. thats them as a whole, backed by their army of cultists, daemon spawns, and sacrifices, alters. ect. his powers are COMPARABLE to them ONE on ONE.

eh.. im speaking as someone whos played all 4 of the devil may cry games.. and has read into the lore of 40k, read alot of the books, and looked into the codex's of tyranids, IG and space marines. (specifically, black templars)

so.. everything, as i see it.. seems fair and balanced as a fan of both mythos. you can break it down how you think it is. but you cant just say "theres no way he can do anything at all to it. period" because thats just wrong. but whatever. all of your feats still have to do with humans. dante is a half demon. to equate it to 40k standards. that makes him a force of chaos. to equate a fex to devil may cry standands. hes a boss battle. if you dont compare it objectively within the terms of either mythos, then you cant compare any video-game fight.

and what thread are we in? videogame versus, right? what videogames were carnifexes in? oh right. an RTS. that let its face get sawed into by a chainsword... which killed it. which means it can be killed by sharpened metal. ergo.. swords are in. which means it is entirely possible for dante to kill it.

plus to say an imperial gaurdsmen with a rocket launcher can kill it, but a half demon whos ended other monstrous creatures cant is kind of unrealistic and biased.

I will reply to your post above Fenris, possibly tomorrow since I am getting tired and need some sleep, but beforehand I will agree with the sword thing being legit because iirc we usually allow quick time events in games, and tje sync kills are just as scripted as them, if not more so.

But the thing I dont agree with would be Dantes sword and strength being equel to a Space marine with a monomolecular chainsword. Thats not quite comparable.

I am still on the fence on whether or not Dante could destroy its head with his weapons, missles or swords because the missle launcher is a 40k one, meaning its designed for Warhammer armour and targets which are a great deal beyond the semi modern DMC verse.

eh, im going to argue that its not a normal sword. being its a demon blade with its own powers. (all of dantes devil triggers change depending on his weapon, and they're all unique in games) being a blade backed by demonic energy, i dont see it not being at least as effective as a chainsword. honed edge or not. hes alot stronger than a normal human, as is evident if you played the games.

its supernatural fantasy vs super human science. and the closest thing i can measure it to is the supernatural fantasy IN 40k itself. which is chaos. so, making the connection of dantes powers within how the powers of chaos works gives you VERY good basis as to how to pit him against ANYTHING else in the 40k universe.

but im looking forward to your reply. moreso than screams, as its just coming across as loud trolling...

pretty much being the only fight hes (argueably) taken seriously, and used his powers to their fullest extent. his sword slashes send energy that cut into the air far past his own reach. he can conjure and launch a giant dragon of demonic flame and magma which breaks through magical barriers and deals crazy high damage. its in game actions you as a player can do during the flying boss battle.

and he has broken down demon-enhanced tanks and choppers in dmc 2. they werent even sub-bosses to him. they just took some time to crack their shells. so argueably, he COULD penetrate tanks.

i do realise 40k tanks are alot stronger

and even if dante gets hit. who he is and his CONSTANT impalements, and being eaten.. (it happens alot to him, and aperrently its no big deal) would only hurt him, not outright kill. and the shockwave from him going into Dt form COULD break a fex's hold on him.

Feats for the shockwave, or no, it can't.

i brought him up as a representation of something that killed a war titan got beat by a human. so something like a carnifex could be taken out by dante. its actually MUCH less of a power gap between dante and the fex.

dantes beat demons and monsters similar in strength and size to a fex.

his powers are COMPARABLE to them ONE on ONE.

but whatever. all of your feats still have to do with humans. dante is a half demon.

but you cant just say "theres no way he can do anything at all to it. period" because thats just wrong.

Without a strength feat it's not wrong, calling me wrong without evidence is wrong. 🙂

and what thread are we in? videogame versus, right?

Originally posted by Peach
So GK and I just quickly discussed this...

For now, we'll go ahead and allow TTG-originated characters for the vs. forum here, simply because there's really nothing for tabletop on KMC.

We're also going to, if Raz returns anytime soon, see about maybe reorganizing the VG forum itself into a general gaming forum with a tabletop subforum. No promises on that one, but if we get a chance to make it happen, we'll do so.

hat videogames were carnifexes in? oh right. an RTS. that let its face get sawed into by a chainsword... which killed it. which means it can be killed by sharpened metal. ergo.. swords are in. which means it is entirely possible for dante to kill it.

Oh. and your sword comparison is hilarious. Rebellion isn't a chainsword, which is far from a 'sharpened piece of metal'. It's got a monomolecular edge and it's teeth spin so fast they become invisible, a chainsword is capable of making insanely clean cuts.

Oh, and it's not effective against a Carnifex. Not in the hands of normal marines, anyway.

So, in summary:
1. We are not ignoring lore in favour of a gameplay snippet.
2. Your gameplay snippet is contradicted by the story of the game it comes from.
3. Chainswords =/= pieces of sharp metal.
4. This in no way allows Dante to just walk up to a Carnifex and hit it.

plus to say an imperial gaurdsmen with a rocket launcher can kill it

but a half demon whos ended other monstrous creatures cant is kind of unrealistic and biased.

The bias is trying to claim being half demon automatically makes Dante better than a krak missile because of who it's fired by. Lol.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
eh, im going to argue that its not a normal sword. being its a demon blade with its own powers. (all of dantes devil triggers change depending on his weapon, and they're all unique in games) being a blade backed by demonic energy, i dont see it not being at least as effective as a chainsword. honed edge or not. hes alot stronger than a normal human, as is evident if you played the games.

its supernatural fantasy vs super human science. and the closest thing i can measure it to is the supernatural fantasy IN 40k itself. which is chaos. so, making the connection of dantes powers within how the powers of chaos works gives you VERY good basis as to how to pit him against ANYTHING else in the 40k universe.

but im looking forward to your reply. moreso than screams, as its just coming across as loud trolling...

I have played all 4 games and I can tell you, he rarely shows strength higher than what Space marines deal with on a regular basis but thats not the point, the point is that this is a monomolecular blade, the surface area would allow it to saw through things of incredible durability anyway while the attribute of "demonic energy" is not comparable or gaugable in this extent, we only know that some swords he uses have a lightning effect, some allow him to move quicker or perform special attacks but not increase his pressure force by the same degree as a molecular blade.

Not really because their not the same, you cant use one demon from one verse and compare it to another, they play by different power sets in rules. Some demons for example are very weak in some verses, others are incredibly powerful.

hehe, indeed youve noticed his manner to? I am very much open minded to Dante winning this fight, but having knowledge of Dante and WH40k myself I cant say Dantes power compares to things like the higher level Wh40k demons or Warhammer metals, for example he cant really slice through Saviour, even the glass weak points in a cutscene required him to use not only Vergils sword which is arguably sharper or more powerful than his own, but also bullets. The pressure of a bullet impact is little and Dante needs to charge them to do special things, for example uncharged they dont break billiard balls in DMC 3, just knock them around the room into things but when he charges them like Jackpot on Mundus he completly destroys him and launches him into the Demon dimention or w/e.

I think Dantes best bet, would be aiming for the eyes, using time powers and using missle weapons as Carnifexes do get heads blown apart by missles. I am not yet convinced by nemebro argument of "well their krak missles!" since it did not seem to give off much more energy than our class of missle. Until more evidence on those missles is clear, I would say Dante will eventully kill the Carnifex by shooting its head with all manner of weapons or slicing it with deft attacks since hes well beyond its speed.

Edit- Not sure, but this is a question to anyone whos read warrios of ultramar, did it specify what missle it was? since these missles may not necesserily be Krak.

Does Dante have his time powers scream?

Stopping time for a month and shooting endless amounts of bullets on it's eyes is the only way Dnate might get 3/10

Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Does Dante have his time powers scream?

Stopping time for a month and shooting endless amounts of bullets on it's eyes is the only way Dnate might get 3/10

Even so, Dante's never stopped time for a month. I can't even recall him ever pulling a full stop, tbh. But meh.

He doesnt have to stop time to shoot endless bullets on its eyes. And hes not just got bullets, hes got Pandora and its vast assortment of weapons. He could do this for years if he has to.

This Carnifex does not even have the hive mind, its not a synapse so its going ot be pretty dumb, mostly animal and may not even be able to use its weapon with any real effectiveness.

Without the hive mind's supervision Carnifexen just rampage mindlessly, Dante's not really going to be able to take advantage of that, lol.

eh. full stop from time bangle for as long as his DT gauge held out. if you used super dante with infinite DT, it resulted in infinite time stop. the quick silver slowed time down to a crawl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abh7-K-4ASs
ends up looking like this.. incredicheap.

and scream, im providing all sorts of vids and things to use as comparison for dantes feats. you, on the other hand, provide nothing other than your voice. maybe take some of your own words to heart and pull some backing info of your own before going off on a rant about me? oh, and you're still treating it as if dantes just some shmoe human, with a normal sword. sharpness isnt its only attribute.

but sence you're so converned with feats.. i found this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=983Lt442uW0
3:00 in, dantes moveset starts. pay close attention to all the moves where his sword, or weapon starts glowing red, and fuming with flames, lightning or black smoke. doesnt that look just EXACTLY like the effects of power weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtszCIKNvE
exactly like this? looks like it to me.. so that at the very least puts dantes sword able to stand up in the warhammer universe. which tells me its fully able to deal damage to the fex.

and im not trying to downplay chainswords. im just pointing out. you dont even need a power weapon to gut a fex. just enough skill and a useful handful of abilities. for the space marines, it was jump jets to get into its face, and a master crafted weapon to carve said face out. for dante, its his years of killing demons and his demonic sword, backed by his own demon blood.

im providing all sorts of vids and things to use as comparison for dantes feats.

3:00 in, dantes moveset starts. pay close attention to all the moves where his sword, or weapon starts glowing red, and fuming with flames, lightning or black smoke. doesnt that look just EXACTLY like the effects of power weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtszCIKNvE
exactly like this? looks like it to me.. so that at the very least puts dantes sword able to stand up in the warhammer universe. which tells me its fully able to deal damage to the fex.

If every weapon with a visual effect suddenly becomes a power weapon 90% of fiction suddenly possesses 40k level tech. (Hint: wrong)

Furthermore, just looking like something doesn't make it as powerful as what it looks like. Think of a sculpted tank, or a laser pointer.

Just having a visual effect doesn't tell anyone anything.

you, on the other hand, provide nothing other than your voice.

Being a half demon doesn't make you as powerful as a chaos daemon. Having a visual effect does not make you a power weapon. Mundus being lord of hell does not make him equal to an empowered Horus. Dante smashing tanks that have no feats. does not allow him to smash tanks that do, and are proven by those feats to be far more durable than modern tanks.

What I'm looking for is a sensible argument. I'm not acting like Dante's a human, I'm acting like it takes a very good destructive feat to put down a Carnifex, which is true.

Editing to respond to your edit:

and im not trying to downplay chainswords. im just pointing out. you dont even need a power weapon to gut a fex. just enough skill and a useful handful of abilities. for the space marines, it was jump jets to get into its face, and a master crafted weapon to carve said face out. for dante, its his years of killing demons and his demonic sword, backed by his own demon blood.

Read. The. Fluff. A synch kill does not override the freakin' codex.

i really dont understand what you keep meaning by no feats. everything ive mentioned happens in game. nearly all of which you, as a player have direct control of. have you played any of the devil may cry games at all, dude?

and im not talking about just the "look" of it. during gameplay, for both devil may cry 4, and space marine.. dantes empowered hits deal damage to things in an equivalent manner to the ultramarine captain dealing damage to the orcs with his force axe. you can see the game play. they both match up to each-other. which for the sake of the "game verus" thread, paints a pretty clear picture.

if, by feats you mean written stories. then devil may cry only has one manga or so that deals with his 'everyday" life and casual demon hunting and odd jobs. so there is none. so all you have to go by.. is the gameplay. and thus, to pit gameplay against 40k. YOU NEED GAMEPLAY FROM 40K. which is what ive been trying to do with the very few games that feature tyranids. its literally down to dawn of war, and killteam for a comparible basis.

the tyranids have what.. at least a decade.. if not more of lore within the 40k mythos? dozens upon dozens of books and 5 editions of codexes. (which often retcon themselves, and can change entire physical attributes of their units in lore, and tabletop)

so excuse me for trying to judge this thing fairly, by pitting gameplay with gameplay and judging a winner thats fair to both mythos.

Dante has plenty of usable feats from the games, you just seem to prefer speculative "is as good as" statements. Dante holds up Saviour's arm for example of a good strength showing, he has piles of good speed and reaction feats since he's primarily a speedster.

The thing is, does he have the kind of strength necessary to mortally wound a Carnifex? The videos you've shown haven't been relevant either way.

What is going on here in my thread?

And for the record, not allowing Quicksilver. Partially because I don't feel Dante "needs" it.

Personally, I think Dante has a fair chance to win. I think it is quite possible that he can mortally wound the Carnifex eventually.

thats actually a much better point than you've been spouting until now. thanks for the clarification. i actually do appreciate it.

my whole point. is that for anything like this.. two severely different mythos. you need to find something as a base to equate it to. dante pushing up saviors hand off of him, the thing being of such sheer size and weight, that makes him obviously inhumanly strong.

a carnifex is what... 20-30 feet tall? all of its strength comes from being genetically powerful. its structured to be the strongest thing in nature for its size, within the limits of DNA. it toppling wraithbone towers, i COULD see happening. but those pictures of towering sky scrapers. the basic laws of physics says that the carnifex's size couldnt let it do that. it pushing at the base, would crumble the base where it pushed, and it would fall into the structure. give an ant the strength of 10 men, and it still cant knock you down, its size prevents that. so im iffy on that stat.

i do agree it is the most powerful physical thing of his size, naturally. (im using naturally meaning something not of the warp, or supernatural) but dante is supernaturally strong. so its one of those things where.. could he block a scything talon from a fex with his sword? its debatable. based on dantes feats in-game, it seems reasonable to assume he COULD parry it.

and if the fex had crushing claws, i could see it doing alot more damage to him. but as its just scything talons, we're looking at another massive impalement for him. after which, he just gets back up and goes right back to fighting it. if the fex stomps him. well, hes been crushed by beowulf, which left him a dante/giant fist crater. which, he promptly got back up like nothing happened. the only real threat im seeing of dante being insta-killed by.. is the venom cannon, (which he can dodge) and being eaten.. the eating thing prolly being the biggest threat. although.. im not sure if dante can survive being split in half... id lawl if he could, because that would be broken.. so yeah.. the fex has a good chance of insta-killing him.

but.. as far as strength goes for dante.. he is more of a fast, slashy guy.
the quickest and easiest thing i saw was the pandora massive laser cannon thingy thats in the vid i showed. it fired a laser that was about as wide as a mans shoulder width, if you saw it. so.. lets assume thats a giant las-cannon. whats the mm size of a heavy lascannon? and compare it to the damage the highest size shot would do to a fex, then math and science it up to figure out the level of damage that size shot would make to the fex.

and dantes strongest attacks realy only use his weapons to channel his demonic power through. like eisenhorn using his monolith staff to channel his psyker power through. (its just an example, not an equal comparison) if you shove a few feet of sharpened metal into a carnifex's eye, and channeled the power of a demon through into its brain... or hell, even lightning, straight to the brain.. would you say that could kill a fex? sounds reasonable to me...

i realise theres not really a basis for dantes level of power compared to standard 40k levels. but thats mostly due to the fact that you cant equate it with 100% precision. you have to find another common ground to put a connection to. so.. that "as good as" is pretty much the best way to figure out the posibilities..

im just trying to say that, given the abilities of both competitors in both mythos, dante COULD kill it, based on the sizes and powers of demons he's killed in the games. whereas a fex COULD kill dante, based on the forces and hordes of armies it's mowed down in games. but to say dante cant do it period, no matter what.. well. that just doesnt make any sense.