Originally posted by RE: BlaxicanIt takes a lot of weed to assume a creature designed for combat has terrible reflexes built into it when nothing suggests such. 😛
It doesn't take much to tag your average space marine.
Space marines can deflect bolter rounds, and a Carnifex can hit them. Take that for what it's worth. Carnifex can't run very fast though, although they get decent speed with a charge, apparently, but it takes time to get there.
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
my whole point. is that for anything like this.. two severely different mythos. you need to find something as a base to equate it to. dante pushing up saviors hand off of him, the thing being of such sheer size and weight, that makes him obviously inhumanly strong.
You really don't. For example, Mephisto from Marvel comics and Mundus from DMC are both essentially Satan. However, Mephisto operates on a much higher scale than Mundus does, and has the feats to prove him being much more powerful, so while both characters share the same basic "status" in their respective universes, the difference in power must still be acknowledged.
The Savior has only shown to be as strong as its size would suggest, no more, really.
a carnifex is what... 20-30 feet tall? all of its strength comes from being genetically powerful. its structured to be the strongest thing in nature for its size, within the limits of DNA. it toppling wraithbone towers, i COULD see happening. but those pictures of towering sky scrapers. the basic laws of physics says that the carnifex's size couldnt let it do that. it pushing at the base, would crumble the base where it pushed, and it would fall into the structure. give an ant the strength of 10 men, and it still cant knock you down, its size prevents that. so im iffy on that stat.
A Carnifex is actually closer to 15 feet tall IIRC.
See, 40k and physics have a very bad relationship, I'm not sure if physics owes 40k money, or if 40k dumped physics to have a fling with chemistry, but they are not on good terms.
The fluff dictates that the Carnifexes were physically toppled the towering Wraithbone spires of the Eldar. Over the top and incredibly impressive, yes, but that's the kind of verse 40k is. It's also common for sufficiently powerful individuals in 40k. Leman Russ toppled a skyscraper by pushing it over, the Primarchs can physically level mountains. 40k is a very powerful verse, though, the Carnifex is not as powerful as a Primarch admittedly.
i do agree it is the most powerful physical thing of his size, naturally. (im using naturally meaning something not of the warp, or supernatural) but dante is supernaturally strong. so its one of those things where.. could he block a scything talon from a fex with his sword? its debatable. based on dantes feats in-game, it seems reasonable to assume he COULD parry it.
That logic doesn't work though. Let's compare, for instance, a Bloodletter, a Daemon, and as such supernaturally powerful, to a Carnifex. The Carnifex is much stronger, despite being entirely biological. Also, during the battle of Sondheim V, Carnifexes are mentioned grappling with Bloodthirsters, the Greater Daemons of Khorne. Now, admittedly, most fluff dictates the Bloodthirster is still, in fact, more powerful in combat, able to hamstring a Carnifex with a single blow, but the difference is not incredible, and a Bloodthirster is much stronger than Dante.
I doubt Dante could straight up parry a scything talon.
and if the fex had crushing claws, i could see it doing alot more damage to him. but as its just scything talons, we're looking at another massive impalement for him. after which, he just gets back up and goes right back to fighting it. if the fex stomps him. well, hes been crushed by beowulf, which left him a dante/giant fist crater. which, he promptly got back up like nothing happened. the only real threat im seeing of dante being insta-killed by.. is the venom cannon, (which he can dodge) and being eaten.. the eating thing prolly being the biggest threat. although.. im not sure if dante can survive being split in half... id lawl if he could, because that would be broken.. so yeah.. the fex has a good chance of insta-killing him.
Scthing talons cut, not stab. Dante would be pretty thoroughly cut in half, and the Carnifex, were it to force itself on him, would flatten him with his strength. If Dante wishes to win this fight, he should utilise his speed and superior intelligence (Though that last claim for Dante of mine is admittedly arguable). The Venom Cannon would indeed spell big trouble for Dante, but you must remember it can fire while slashing at Dante.
but.. as far as strength goes for dante.. he is more of a fast, slashy guy. the quickest and easiest thing i saw was the pandora massive laser cannon thingy thats in the vid i showed. it fired a laser that was about as wide as a mans shoulder width, if you saw it. so.. lets assume thats a giant las-cannon. whats the mm size of a heavy lascannon? and compare it to the damage the highest size shot would do to a fex, then math and science it up to figure out the level of damage that size shot would make to the fex.
Lascannons aren't meant to fire a "large" laser, it's mean to be thinner, more concentrated, and therefore, more powerful. You can't just equivelate everything between two separate verses.
and dantes strongest attacks realy only use his weapons to channel his demonic power through. like eisenhorn using his monolith staff to channel his psyker power through. (its just an example, not an equal comparison) if you shove a few feet of sharpened metal into a carnifex's eye, and channeled the power of a demon through into its brain... or hell, even lightning, straight to the brain.. would you say that could kill a fex? sounds reasonable to me...
The problem being the Carnifex has small eyes, thinner than Rebellion certainly, though blinding it is still a viable tactic. But yes, the space surrounding its eyes is armoured.
i realise theres not really a basis for dantes level of power compared to standard 40k levels. but thats mostly due to the fact that you cant equate it with 100% precision. you have to find another common ground to put a connection to. so.. that "as good as" is pretty much the best way to figure out the posibilities..
I disagree. I find comparing their feats and showings against others to be a better way to reach a consensus.
im just trying to say that, given the abilities of both competitors in both mythos, dante COULD kill it, based on the sizes and powers of demons he's killed in the games. whereas a fex COULD kill dante, based on the forces and hordes of armies it's mowed down in games. but to say dante cant do it period, no matter what.. well. that just doesnt make any sense.
I certainly believe Dante could kill it.
as far as feats go.. im going to say dante spent 4 games running through cities, islands, castles, and jungles slaying hordes of demons for hours (in some cases days, due to the day/night cycle of some games) at a time. laying waste to armies of demonic minions and generals.
http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bosses
everything in there hes killed himself. on top of the hordes of lesser demons hes slain. he literally decorates his shop with the hides and skulls of demons hes killed. and when i look at that list of creatures, and remember their abilities, strengths, sizes and damage it took to kill them.. i can see a fex fitting in on that nicely..
but i'll get back to you guys more after i finish the campaign for warhammer 40k: killteam. so far, im LOVING the vangaurd veteran. jumpjets dont jump, though.. but his charge is epic for clearing orks.
and im pretty sure theres a fex as a boss in there..
Staying at a distance and launching missles and bullets into its face, eyes etc would be the way to go. Pandora has more than enough weapons to keep Dante satisfied and with the Carnifex not being able to do much about it (unless Dante uses pandoras large multi missle system) then Dantes win is an eventuality.
Not really, since unless those attacks are more powerful than his melee attacks, which I doubt since the best feats I've seen from Dante have revolved around his physical capability, he's only going to annoy it.
Dante becoming exhausted is also an eventuality. If he needs to rest or exhausts himself beyond being able to fight, he loses. That should only take a day or so. Then he gets torn apart.
Meh. I'm unsure about whether a Carnifex is totally invulnerable to him to be honest, since there's been no straight up comparisons of his strength to it's durability. But the Carnifex's durability does seem greater to me.
Its eyes are not that endurant, all I hear is of them being damaged and its head can be blown off by a missle. Dante blows out its eyes, and if missles are not powerful enough he then goes in for an easy kill, a fully aware Fex is going to have trouble hitting Dante, let alone a blind one.
Why would Dante get exuasted just fireing missles and bullets? hes not likely to ever get tired doing that unless your talking of sleep deprivation. The Carnifex' eyes cant take that much punishment.
Have you even played DMC?
Originally posted by ScreamPasteAn Abrams tank is designed for combat... that doesn't mean it can hit jet fighters.
It takes a lot of weed to assume a creature designed for combat has terrible reflexes built into it when nothing suggests such. 😛
Space marines can deflect bolter rounds, and a Carnifex can hit them. Take that for what it's worth.
Well, for one thing, deflecting a bolter round would be a feat of reflexes, not movement, ergo it wouldn't come into play regarding a Carnifex being able to tag a SM. A space marine's movement speed and agility is important, not its reflexes.
For another, can you provide the source for Space Marines deflecting botler rounds? You said Marines plural, so I'm assuming multiple space marines displayed this ability?
Originally posted by Burning thought
Staying at a distance and launching missles and bullets into its face, eyes etc would be the way to go. Pandora has more than enough weapons to keep Dante satisfied and with the Carnifex not being able to do much about it (unless Dante uses pandoras large multi missle system) then Dantes win is an eventuality.
^^This.
Speed is not arguable here.... the fex hitting dante is near impossible until dante completely runs out of stamina.
During that time all dante has to do is pick it apart, mainly aiming for its eye, until its is blind. When its blind, Dante could just watch it waste all of its energy going crazy.
Yes, I mean the problem is that not only are Scream and Nemebro assuming Dantes going to run out of energy trying to harm it, its eyes and face are not necesserily that durable, its shell and body perhaps but eyes? nah, Dante has more than enough munitions but their also forgetting that the Carnifex may also run out of energy, likely sooner than Dante especially if its going animalistic wild without the hive mind to direct it.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican Well, for one thing, deflecting a bolter round would be a feat of reflexes, not movement, ergo it wouldn't come into play regarding a Carnifex being able to tag a SM. A space marine's movement speed and agility is important, not its reflexes.
This is absolutely true. A Space Marine has superior reflexes to any human being, but they are also very large, weighing in at about half a ton in their 180 kilo power armour, and are not depicted as being capable of great feats of agility.
For another, can you provide the source for Space Marines deflecting botler rounds? You said Marines plural, so I'm assuming multiple space marines displayed this ability?
It's in First Heretic, one of the Horus Heresy novels. Though it must be said that the Space Marine who deflected those bolter rounds, IIRC a certain Argel Tel, was a very skilled and competent swordsman, even for a Marine. But others have done this. Inquisitors have on a few separate occasions, for instance.
Originally posted by Burning thoughtI frankly am not convinced the Carnifex will win. It's too slow.
Yes, I mean the problem is that not only are Scream and Nemebro assuming Dantes going to run out of energy trying to harm it
Try to read the thread before you say things.
Originally posted by Burning thoughtI never brought up Dante's stamina. Let alone it running out.
Whats that to do with "not convinced the Carnifex will win", I just said people are only bringing up how much energy Dante may have, the Carnifex being biological has a set amount of energy as well.
Just saying, stop claiming I'm saying things I didn't. estahuh
An Abrams tank is designed for combat... that doesn't mean it can hit jet fighters.An abrams isn't a living thing with a nervous system. For a Carnifex to have shitty reaction time it would need to have shitty reaction time built in intentionally. That just doesn't make any sense, and there's nothing that points to it either.
Space marines are still more agile than normal humans.
I'm not claiming a Carnifex can tag Dante based on that, but nothing implies their reaction time is 'slow as shit'.
Originally posted by cool_ghostIt'll just heal once he's tired.
^^This.Speed is not arguable here.... the fex hitting dante is near impossible until dante completely runs out of stamina.
During that time all dante has to do is pick it apart, mainly aiming for its eye, until its is blind. When its blind, Dante could just watch it waste all of its energy going crazy.
No one's brought up the destructive power of said ranged attacks yet, and without a good feat, the Carnifex getting tired first doesn't mean anything since Dante's attacks will just bounce off it's shell for the most part while it reccuperates.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
An abrams isn't a living thing with a nervous system. For a Carnifex to have shitty reaction time it would need to have shitty reaction time built in intentionally. That just doesn't make any sense, and there's nothing that points to it either.Space marines are still more agile than normal humans.
I'm not claiming a Carnifex can tag Dante based on that, but nothing implies their reaction time is 'slow as shit'.
It'll just heal once he's tired.
No one's brought up the destructive power of said ranged attacks yet, and without a good feat, the Carnifex getting tired first doesn't mean anything since Dante's attacks will just bounce off it's shell for the most part while it reccuperates.
Wrong, shitty reaction time built in? what are you even talking about lol...the hive mind and its genetics have a limit on what they can do. "theres nothing that points to it" is a terrible argument, playing on a negative, theres nothing that points to it being able to react quickly, let alone to Dante.
Or while it reccuperates it gets its eyes/head torn off by Dantes melee.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Wrong, shitty reaction time built in? what are you even talking about lol...the hive mind and its genetics have a limit on what they can do. "theres nothing that points to it" is a terrible argument, playing on a negative, theres nothing that points to it being able to react quickly, let alone to Dante.Or while it reccuperates it gets its eyes/head torn off by Dantes melee.
1. Reread my post.
2. Feats.