Originally posted by dadudemon
No, no concession. You conceded that you could only prove one AK. I accept that concession and was willing to incorrectly give up one of mine.
Nope. I acknowledged on my accord that there was an instance of Voldemort not using Avada Kedavra as his opening move. You, on the other hand, seem to be flip-flopping on this whole Occlumency line of thought.
Nah. It's not there. You're lying, directly. You know you have nothing.
Yes, because clearly I enjoy lying to you about videos in a thread. I take pleasure in having you waste your time searching for these imaginary clips across the pages.
🙄
This is a red herring of a reply.This is irrelevant. Why do you do these things? 😄
DDM Tactics 101
1. If an opponent has proven you wrong or written a counterargument, repeat your previous points as a defense.
2. Repeatedly call your opponent a liar or a troll.
3. Illogically throw out logical fallacies in an attempt to make yourself smarter, and use them to avoid debating certain points.
4. If your opponent doesn't concede automatically to those above tactics, report him for trolling.
So, because I directly proved you wrong with a quote from Dumbles, you'll do what others despised about RJ: posting a mock/troll vid?You're the one that takes insult by that comparison, but, I'm sorry: the only other poster that I have had to requote myself to that much as RJ himself. You have his MO, thoroughly.
Wait....wait...wait...
Is that you, RJ?
It can't be...the registration date...
You didn't prove anything. You tried to argue that Voldemort was no longer of the human species, and that Muggles were of some different race than wizards/witches. And that Voldemort was some god, and Gandalf a lower level magical being, and that Voldemort > > > Gandalf, that's what you tried to prove.
I couldn't help but "o.O" to that.
Let's get back to basics:Occlumency: can be used. No CIS/PIS. Can be used at any time. If it nets a win for Volde, it's a win.
Only used at the end of Dumbledore vs. Voldemort, when Voldemort had nothing left against Dumbledore, he attacked a defenseless spectating Harry. Occlumency can be beaten by willpower, which Gandalf has plenty of.
Cloud form that is invulnerable to nigh everything except probably high levels of TK. He can cast fiendfyre or any number of spells/curses/charms/jinxes while in that form.
He has versatility, sure, but it's his in-character tendency to open with Avada Kedavra.
he open with AK? CIS/PIS is off. It's irrelevant. Despite that, you have a better case for TK than AK being his first choice. Maybe even with Gandalf, too...I believe that's what he resorted to, first, again Saruman.
😆 So in-character tendencies are now CIS/PIS?
Seriously, you're wrong here. In-character tendencies have to be taken into consideration. Not only that, Avada Kedavra, as I have shown, is used the vast majority of times as the opening move against opponents in combat instances. And this is Gandalf the White..
We both agree that CIS/PIS is off unless the thread starter states something like "in character" or "morals are on". Else we end up with Gandalf trying to reason with Voldemort to not be bad...like he did with Saruman. Not a good match up...because that's lame.
In-character BATTLE tendencies.
Who is faster? By time and skill, that would be Voldemort. He has the literal fastest reaction and disarming/deflection time out of the two wizards. That's not debatable so we really should not discuss it. But I will admit that the reaction times are close and it won't matter in this thread because they are at a distance from each other. (20 feet) So that pretty much nulls Voldemort's point blank range reaction speed trumping Gandalf.SO what's left?
Their reactions times are close. However, Gandalf has demonstrated being able to perform multiple spells simultaneously (Blinding Light, Pyrokinesis, and Object Shattering), while Voldemort is only able to blast Avada Kedavra when casting the Killing Curse.
Voldemort cannot lose because he cannot be killed, Voldemort has protection due to Lily Potter, Voldemort can choose whatever he wants to win because CIS/PIS is off. So he wins, by your own rules and admissions of him being more versitile and having more powers.
As others have commented, I'll just say "Gandalf is an Istari. Voldemort isn't on his level. Voldemort can't kill him."
Originally posted by RobtardUhm, we've seen Gandalf the Grey defeated by tk before. Regardless of whether he dies forever or what not for the purposes of this thread he loses.
Gandalf's physical body can die, as we've seen and that would be a win in an MVF fight.I understand though, Voldermort-boys have no other angle of retort except crying "horcruxes! horcruxes!!!!11!" now.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Uhm, we've seen Gandalf the Grey defeated by tk before. Regardless of whether he dies forever or what not for the purposes of this thread he loses.
He only lost that fight because he was exhausted and allowed Saruman to break through his defenses and snatch his staff. Still, Gandalf the White is on a whole new level.
Yet, Wormtongue's poisoning had been going on for such a long time that Saruman had an extremely potent control over Theoden's mind, to the degree that Theoden's physical form was severely aged and weakened. And powerful to the extent that Saruman had the capability of killing Theoden through his mental domination.
Grima continued his wicked words until the very end. I don't think proximity to Theoden mattered in this situation.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh.Plus he had the whole 'GTFO of the Istari' hing backing him up there.
Which he was only able to do because he was far more powerful...
Edit: Regardless, in the movies that is clearly not what was simply going on as the Witch King did the same thing to Gandalf despite not being an Istari.
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, knew the Voldermort cheer-crowd would have to resort to the "he can't die because of the horcruxes" angle as a last ditch effort.Pretty stupid/pointless including that in a MVF fight, eh. If we start using these "only can die from" angles, then any RotN ninja could kill every Harry Potter wizard.
Nah, this is obviously different. That's an apples to oranges comparison on your part.
In the past, thread starters (RJ and yourself) would include a "no hocruxes" clause in the OP.
Same with Felix Felicis. It's just silly to allow them in the thread if you wish to have a fair discussion.
Originally posted by Robtard
I understand though, Voldermort-boys have no other angle of retort except crying "horcruxes! horcruxes!!!!11!" now.
Well, I know your approach in this thread, so you know that that is far from the only angle.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
No...if the fireball happened to be green by chance, you would be bringing this up repeatedly.
That does not address this:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Fireball does not equal = a magical spellin the context that we are discussing. I want a magical spell, not a fireball.
Sure, it's magic...but it's not what we are talking about.
To me, that's the same thing as casting a butterfly spell where the only thing that comes out of the wand is butterflies: that's not what we're talking about.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Look at the screenshot at 1:35 in the Voldemort vs Dumbledore video, and you see the outreach of Voldemort's wand arm, and the wand being pointed towards Dumbledore when the "shadow spell" is released.
Wrong, that's his fist.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Voldemort would never be able to conjure that spell with his bare hands. The film makes it explicitly clear that his wand is bestowing him that power.
You're contradicted by what was seen on screen.
Concede this point or suffer the wrath of the report button.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
You reported me now? Wow, [B]you're a sore loser. If you can't handle someone proving you wrong, and have to resort to bringing in mods to punish your opponent, you just lost all respect from me. Gimme a break, GTFO of this thread if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you. What a joke...you have acted extremely rude and behaved very disgracefully towards me, and yet even I won't go down to your level and report you for "trolling." Learn when to use the word before you start throwing it around like an idiot. [/B]
😆
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Magical spells do not suddenly change colors or forms from person to person. All those spells are not jets/bolts of greenish-blue energy and they don't kill an individual upon contact.
It would seem they do because...
Originally posted by dadudemon
2...most visible spells Voldy uses are green, regardless.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
And why don't you trace the origin of this line of debate? You started with a rather ridiculous post of various spells that could have caused a bird to stop moving and fall to the earth, even though you see the green flash of Avada Kedavra. None of those spells above have that appearance or effect.
You did not counter all of them.
You also did not address anything I stated. You avoided it.
Here:
Originally posted by dadudemon
...you left off quite a few form that list.Here's the problem: you'd have to prove it for Voldemort and not anyone else.
Hint: it's impossible for you to accomplish.
In other words, that particular line of reasoning of yours has been completely and utterly destroyed.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
On the contrary, you simply failed to prove me wrong. And out of frustration of having your points proven wrong, you've decided to randomly report me to mods for trolling despite everyone else knowing the type of person I am is completely opposite to that of a troll.
😆
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Y'know, I find it rather funny how you are flip-flopping over this line of thought. And one point, you are arguing it, and later down, you are conceding it. 😆And I don't understand what that movie quote is accomplishing. OOTP makes it explicitly clear that willpower is enough to resist mind invasions. Harry doesn't do anything magical to block Voldemort's Legilimency.
It's like lying is the only thing you can do.
Did I ever properly concede that point?
Let's read that post again:
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'll concede that even non-magical beings or ignorant beings of legilimens, will still be able to resist with awesome willpower.[b]Granted, occlumency is literally the magical resistance of magical mind invasion making me wrong to concede that
....but I'll concede since you just conceded a major point of contention. I am a strong believer in the law of reciprocity. 😄[/B]
And since I clearly put up quotes from Snape calling it "power" and "magic", you're wrong.
However, I was willing to concede that because it is irrelevant to the overall placement of the discussion (Voldemort still wins by a land slide). I don't have to be right about everything, even I was literally right: my pride isn't that pathetic. 313
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Go ahead and keep reporting me.1. Do you realize I find it rather sad of you report me?
2. Do you realize I did nothing wrong?
3. Do you realize that your reporting won't make me back down?
😆
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Answer the question. Where does Voldemort use Legilimency against [B]Dumbledore? [/B]
I already did and you even talked about it later. 🙂
You're attempting a word game, at this point. Oh well: it's just you being wrong again and not being able to admit it. I can deal with that.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Umm....again, it was against a completely defenseless individual who he wasn't fighting.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Harry fought back. Stop lying.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Harry was [B]spectating when his mind was invaded. He wasn't across from Voldemort, wand at the ready, ready to fight, when the first thing that happens is Voldemort uses Occlumency. I'm sorry if you don't understand that. [/B]
That's quite irrelevant to my point about that, now isn't it?
Originally posted by Korto Vos
How is CIS/PIS turned off in MVF debates have anything to do with what I said?
That was explained to you multiple times already.
However, since I actually provide information from the same thread:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Occlumency: can be used. No CIS/PIS. Can be used at any time. If it nets a win for Volde, it's a win.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
[B]Shakes headWow, basically you admit to just repeating yourself and dodging once a point of yours has been trounced. [/B]
You missed the point entirely, didn't you. (Hint: you did)
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I have a strong urge to report you for such behavior, but I'm not going to.
😆
Originally posted by Korto Vos
And quit lying- I never said "Occlumency is not magic."
LOL! You don't even know your own positions (which have been contradictory to both yourself and the movies:
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Harry doesn't do anything magical to block Voldemort from his mind. His willpower (the most critical component of Occlumency) is enough.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
On the contrary, OOTP explicitly shows that with just willpower (no magic, no Occlumency), an individual can resist mind invasions. Gandalf has a lot of willpower. Your argument dies.
But, I put the exact words up for you that show exactly what Snape was trying to do with Harry: tech him how to keep the Dark Lord from invading his mind with Occlumency.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Voldemort opens with Avada Kedavra.
O rly?
Originally posted by Korto Vos
CIS/PIS is turned off for MVF debates.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Will he open with AK? CIS/PIS is off. It's irrelevant.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also DDM, reporting Korto was pretty lame. 😬
I didn't report SHIT.
😆
I find it lame, as well.
Didn't we go over this, already?
Originally posted by Korto Vos
No...despite my many attempts to demonstrate to you that these spells are physically indicative of Avada Kedavra (and ARE the Killing Curse) and are in-character tendencies of Voldemort, you completely brush them aside.
No, you ignore everything I stated which contradicts those positions (and are not "arguable" positions due to being axioms or questions that can never be answered on your part).
Originally posted by Korto Vos
"Diffuse me...taken away [my] bombs"By what? Reporting me for trolling?
Huh..."trolls try to force people into arguing about the same things over and over"
Wow, sounds like you are describing yourself.
No, by forcing you to NOT be able to argue in circles: I explained that in the same section you quoted:
Originally posted by dadudemon
...don't talk in circles. If you bring up the SAME EXACT arguments and present them the same way, YOU WILL GET THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENTS.
"No, you ignore everything I stated which contradicts those positions (and are not "arguable" positions due to being axioms or questions that can never be answered on your part)."
and
Originally posted by dadudemon
...don't talk in circles. If you bring up the SAME EXACT arguments and present them the same way, YOU WILL GET THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENTS.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
What clicked to me is that you will simply not answer any counterarguments that have proven yours wrong.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Now, no more. Don't bring this up again or I'll just requote myself.Lovely, there really is no point of me debating with you, is there?
You'll simply dodge when you have to, and when confronted about it, will admit to the dodging.
I rather spend my time debating with others who can actually try and prove my interpretation wrong, instead of just repeating stuff over and over again (like a "troll," as you describe it).
(You've descended into complete and utter circles, now.)
No, this:
"No, you ignore everything I stated which contradicts those positions (and are not "arguable" positions due to being axioms or questions that can never be answered on your part)."
and
Originally posted by dadudemon
...don't talk in circles. If you bring up the SAME EXACT arguments and present them the same way, YOU WILL GET THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENTS.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's an extremely relevant argument as it determines the outcome of this match.
No it doesn't because:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Will he open with AK? CIS/PIS is off. It's irrelevant.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If it was in-character of Voldemort to Apparate instantly at the start of a duel, or use the Imperius Curse, then my interpretation would be completely different.
That's a faulty comparison because:
Originally posted by dadudemon
CIS/PIS is off.
Originally posted by dadudemon
However, the majority of times, in a combat situation, Voldemort is blasting a greenish-blue jet/bolt of energy (that is Avada Kedavra)
Okay, so this is still my reply to that:
Originally posted by Nephthys
Being green doesnot equal death spell.
Originally posted by dadudemon
All other spells, however, are green. You know, the ones that actually come form his wand, are in the form of a glowing ball or stream...and stuff.Which is what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by dadudemon
... most visible spells Voldy uses are green, regardless.
Then there's the problem of you not proving that Voldemort's spells (described earlier, so keep it in context and don't play word games) are something other than green.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Nope. I acknowledged on my accord that there was an instance of Voldemort not using Avada Kedavra as his opening move. You, on the other hand, seem to be flip-flopping on this whole Occlumency line of thought.
Nah. And covered this already. Shall I requote? Nah.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yes, because clearly I enjoy lying to you about videos in a thread. I take pleasure in having you waste your time searching for these imaginary clips across the pages.🙄
My response is still the same to this exact same post...you didn't actually address what I said. I at least take the time the find the arguments already presented and requote them for you. The exception is the one post where you ask for that evidence and then directly talk about it in the very next section of the same post: lame.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
DDM Tactics 1011. If an opponent has proven you wrong or written a counterargument, repeat your previous points as a defense.
2. Repeatedly call your opponent a liar or a troll.
3. Illogically throw out logical fallacies in an attempt to make yourself smarter, and use them to avoid debating certain points.
4. If your opponent doesn't concede automatically to those above tactics, report him for trolling.
1. You mean, "If another poster repeats the same exact arguments" then "repeat your previous points"
2. Repeatedly call your opponent a liar or a troll [ when they are lying and trolling].
3. ...[Call out] logical fallacies [whenthey occur].
4. You mean, "If the poster lies repeatedly, especially when what was seen on screen directly contradicts the poster", pretend to report him to see if he'll stop his lying games.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
You didn't prove anything. You tried to argue that Voldemort was no longer of the human species, and that Muggles were of some different race than wizards/witches. And that Voldemort was some god, and Gandalf a lower level magical being, and that Voldemort > > > Gandalf, that's what you tried to prove.I couldn't help but "o.O" to that.
Uhhh....
You did not contradict anything I said.
BTW, the quote from Dumbledore destroys your argument, still.
Deal with it instead of throwing a tantrum about being wrong about the millionth thing.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Only used at the end of Dumbledore vs. Voldemort, when Voldemort had nothing left against Dumbledore, he attacked a defenseless spectating Harry. Occlumency can be beaten by willpower, which Gandalf has plenty of.
Thank you for conceding this point.
I feel that we can, as of yet, reach amicability in this thread.
I take back what I implicitly stated about your pride being too much to admit fault.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
He has versatility, sure, but it's his in-character tendency to open with Avada Kedavra.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No CIS/PIS.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
😆 So in-character tendencies are now CIS/PIS?Seriously, you're wrong here. In-character tendencies have to be taken into consideration. Not only that, Avada Kedavra, as I have shown, is used the vast majority of times as the opening move against opponents in combat instances. And this is Gandalf the White..
No, in character tendencies (or plot elements), when they result in stupidity in the plot or character, are CIS/PIS.
If you think you have won a vs. debate because you have to invoke CIS from one side to win, then you have already lost the debate UNLESS the OP states that 'morality' or 'in character tendencies' are on. This was settled years ago.
It's too late to add an "in character tendencies" clause to this thread because the forum rules state that the thread conditions must be cemented within the first few posts of the thread (we, liberally, take that to mean within the first page)
Originally posted by Korto Vos
In-character BATTLE tendencies.Their reactions times are close. However, Gandalf has demonstrated being able to perform multiple spells simultaneously (Blinding Light, Pyrokinesis, and Object Shattering), while Voldemort is only able to blast Avada Kedavra when casting the Killing Curse.
I do not think we can debate this point further.
I contend that since it was literally a shorter time period; between Harry's action, Voldy's reaction, his defense, and his repelling of the spell with magic; than any of Gandalf's reactions, then Voldy is faster.
However, I will concede that Gandalf's reaction had to be more complex...despite it being over a longer period of time and a longer distance.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
As others have commented, I'll just say "Gandalf is an Istari. Voldemort isn't on his level. Voldemort can't kill him."
His physical body can be killed.
Just the same as Voldy's physical body IF he didn't have Horcruxes. Their souls both go to some sort of "afterlife". That's hardly a counter to what I've stated. 😄
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Don't forget he mentally out-dueled Saruman to save Theoden's life. Saruman apparently had the ability to kill Theoden through his mental dominance, but Gandalf's magic had such potency to throw Saruman onto the floor hundreds of miles away in Orthanc.
I COMPLETELY forgot about that.
For me, that's directly the same thing as "legilmens".
By extension, we can say he can have such a magical contest dwith Voldemort if Voldy tries invade his mind.
The problem: will Gandalf be able to keep out he most powerful user of Legilimens? Or will he succumb to his mind invasion?
It's arbitrary, but I contend that Voldy will be able to easily take over Gandalf's mind because Gandalf doesn't have tons of practice at it like, say...Snape does (Snape has decades of practice at it...which is how he trippd up Voldy)
Originally posted by Nephthys
On the other hand Gandalf was standing in the room with Theoden and Saruman was hundreds of miles away in Orthanc. That Gandalf had an easy time kicking him out might have been made easier by actually being in the damn room.
Oh, right.
That makes sense: Saruman's "magical projection" was stretched thin because he was hundreds of miles away...whereas Gandalf was right there in the room with the King.
I did not think about that angle.
But there's a flaw with your reasoning (and the counter to your reasoning): you'd have to prove that the magical mind control projection diminishes over distance. The other side would have to prove that it stays just as strong over distances.
I do not believe either side can prove that. So it's arbitrary.
Originally posted by ares834
Which he was only able to do because he was far more powerful...
I disagree: it was due to Saruman's improper/naughty actions in the mortal realm that got Saruman kicked out....not necessarily because Gandalf was more powerful.