Voldemort vs. Gandalf the White

Originally posted by Korto Vos
We can both continue finger-pointing at one another, but I'm going to bring an ends to it because it's a waste of time for both of us.

I am drawing attention to this:

Okay, fair enough...

Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, it isn't. Look, if a particular character always starts a fight in a particular fashion, why would he/she suddenly drastically deviate from that manner?

I'm not saying anything ludicrous whatsoever. In-character [battle] tendencies are not CIS/PIS at all.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, in character tendencies (or plot elements), when they result in stupidity in the plot or character, are CIS/PIS.

If you think you have won a vs. debate because you have to invoke CIS from one side to win, then you have already lost the debate UNLESS the OP states that 'morality' or 'in character tendencies' are on. This was settled years ago.

It's too late to add an "in character tendencies" clause to this thread because the forum rules state that the thread conditions must be cemented within the first few posts of the thread (we, liberally, take that to mean within the first page)

Originally posted by Korto Vos
That's all fine and dandy, but "in-character tendencies" are implicit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, in character tendencies (or plot elements), when they result in stupidity in the plot or character, are CIS/PIS.

If you think you have won a vs. debate because you have to invoke CIS from one side to win, then you have already lost the debate UNLESS the OP states that 'morality' or 'in character tendencies' are on. This was settled years ago.

It's too late to add an "in character tendencies" clause to this thread because the forum rules state that the thread conditions must be cemented within the first few posts of the thread (we, liberally, take that to mean within the first page)

Originally posted by Korto Vos
To argue something like Voldemort would start Apparating around the moment the fight begins, or Voldemort transports to the next hallway and casts Fiendfyre, is completely out-of-character and not going to happen.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No CIS/PIS. If it nets a win for Volde, it's a win.

=============================

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I want to bring back my post regarding the opening moves of Voldemort in each of his combat instances. This time, even though all of them are either [B]not combat situations or unimpressive showings and should be disregarded, I'll add your additions as well. [/B]

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is also class act.

That was honest/big of you.

So I apologize for how strong my arguments were, earlier.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Voldemort vs. Harry- Graveyard Part I
OM: TK

2. Voldemort vs. Harry- Graveyard Part II
OM: Avada Kedavra

3. Voldemort vs Harry OOTP Part I
OM: TK

4. Voldemort vs. Dumbledore
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell

5. Voldemort vs. Harry OOTP Part II
OM: Occlumency

6. Voldemort vs. Snape
OM: Sectumsempra

7. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part I (when Harry flees)
OM: Incendio

8. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 2 (Hogwarts)
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell

9. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 3 (Platforms)
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell

10. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 4 (Courtyard)
OM: Avada Kedavra

11. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 5 (Courtyard)
OM: Avada Kedavra

EDIT: 12. Voldemort vs. Harry (Sky Battle)
OM: Avada Kedavra

If you break this down:

3 AK-like spells
4 AK
1 Incendio

1 Occlumency

1 Sectumsempra
2 TK

You can add in when Harry tried to "sneak" attack Voldemort at the Ministry of Magic: Voldemort "opened" with a TK attack that knocked Harry's wand out of his hand.

So that's 3 TKs for an "opener".

In the Sky Battle, that was a regular old DeathEater with a mask that killed Hedwig, not Volde. I don't remember Voldemort getting any success.

And, all of those coutyard scenes...I need to see video evidence for all of them.

HOWEVER! And this is a major however....

This:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Will he open with AK? CIS/PIS is off. It's irrelevant.

...

Voldemort cannot lose because he cannot be killed, Voldemort has protection due to Lily Potter, Voldemort can choose whatever he wants to win because CIS/PIS is off. So he wins, by your own rules and admissions of him being more versitile and having more powers.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
You can consider the 4 AK + 3 AK-like spells + Incendio as one category, since Voldemort would be firing a magical blast (the Killing Curse or a fireball) at Gandalf. 8/12 times Voldemort is following this battle characteristic. I still maintain my interpretation that Gandalf's all-purpose Shield would block this attack, and Voldemort's wand is spontaneously burned or shattered within several seconds of this duel.

No, this:

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Voldemort would start Apparating around the moment the fight begins, or Voldemort transports to the next hallway and casts Fiendfyre

313

DDM,

We already went over this in the MVF social thread, you repeating failed points that either me, Kortos and/or Neme have already crushed serves no purpose.

Originally posted by Robtard
DDM,

We already went over this in the MVF social thread, you repeating failed points that either me, Kortos and/or Neme have already crushed serves no purpose.

Which ones and why do you feel some arguments trump those specific points?

🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, in character tendencies (or plot elements), when they result in stupidity in the plot or character, are CIS/PIS.

If you think you have won a vs. debate because you have to invoke CIS from one side to win, then you have already lost the debate UNLESS the OP states that 'morality' or 'in character tendencies' are on. This was settled years ago.

It's too late to add an "in character tendencies" clause to this thread because the forum rules state that the thread conditions must be cemented within the first few posts of the thread (we, liberally, take that to mean within the first page)

Neph, this is for you:

"Fwoosh! That's the sound of my point going over your head."

JK...but seriously, before you repeat your post again, here me out one more time:

If a particular character always starts a fight in a particular fashion, why would he/she suddenly drastically deviate from that manner?

That's not CIS/PIS at all. There's zero stupidity involved. I am citing a move (or type of move) Voldemort performs on screen multiple times in his fight sequences. I'm not making anything up, or purposely suggesting he'll do some random@ss suicidal maneuver.

This is why I also say:

"That's all fine and dandy, but "in-character tendencies" are implicit.""

Because they essentially are. The style of fighting a character employs is the basis of judging their combat abilities against another's. For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi knows the lightsaber form Ataru. But in an MVF, posters would say he uses his defensive form Soresu because that's his preferred form and the one he typically utilizes in a fight.

This is what I said about Gandalf earlier in this thread:

Hear me out:

Gandalf, as ordered by the Valar, is not to be able to combat Sauron or other evils with power, but rather by other means (such as rallying the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth). Hence, in most fights, he relies on his physical abilities with the sword and staff. Yet, against "alpha" opponents, he has to resort to his inner Istari powers to successfully engage them.

Gandalf the Grey:

Normal Version- Against Goblins; Cave-troll

* Fights with sword and staff (Battle in the Chamber of Mazarbul)

Istari Version- Against Saruman; Durin's Bane

* Telekinesis (against Saruman) ; Shield (against Balrog) ; Blast (destroy the Bridge of Khazad-Dum) ; Lightning Blade (against Balrog)

Gandalf the White:

Normal Version- Against Uruk-Hai; Orcs; Trolls

* Fights with sword and staff (Battle of the Hornburg; Battle of the Pelennor Fields; Battle of the Morannon)

Istari Version- Against Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli; Horde of Uruk-Hai; Saruman; Nazgul; Witch-King of Angmar

* Blinding Light (Rendezvous in the Fangorn Forest; Rohirrim Cavalry charge in Battle of the Hornburg; Fall of Osgiliath) ; Shield (Confrontation with Saruman; Confrontation with the Witch-King) ; Pyrokinesis (Rendezvous in the Fangorn Forest) ; Blast (Rendezvous in the Fangorn Forest; Confrontation with Saruman) ; Mental Extraction (Elimination of Saruman from Theoden)

It's evident that because of these vast apparent differences in power and skill that we have to distinguish Gandalf into two categories, of which we can determine his in-character tendencies.

For Gandalf the White Istari version, we see that he is defensive-minded.

When Aragorn and company attack him in the Fangorn Forest, he defends (envelops himself in Blinding Light; shatters/burn opponent's weaponry). When Saruman unleashes a large fireball at him, he defends (with his Shield), and then uses Blast to obliterate his opponent's staff. When the Witch-King of Angmar faces him in Minas Tirith, you see Gandalf defending with his staff (you hear a magical sound- likely that of his invisible Shield being invoked). He also enjoys using Blinding Light on several occasions.

Against, Voldemort, an "alpha" opponent, we must look at the Istari version of Gandalf the White.

I'm very much considering Gandalf's idiosyncrasies as well. Ergo, the 'story'/summary explanation I gave of how this battle would occur is in agreement with both Gandalf's and Voldemort's in-character tendencies.

You can add in when Harry tried to "sneak" attack Voldemort at the Ministry of Magic: Voldemort "opened" with a TK attack that knocked Harry's wand out of his hand.

I already included that. It was #3.

"3. Voldemort vs Harry OOTP Part I
OM: TK"

In the Sky Battle, that was a regular old DeathEater with a mask that killed Hedwig, not Volde. I don't remember Voldemort getting any success.

Sky Battle

And, all of those coutyard scenes...I need to see video evidence for all of them.

#7

#8

#9

#10

#11

313

🙄 Sure boss, Gandalf wins.

Originally posted by Robtard
DDM,

We already went over this in the MVF social thread, you repeating failed points that either me, Kortos and/or Neme have already crushed serves no purpose.

And Ares as well!

And this thread is closing in on #16 of the largest threads in the MVF.

Originally posted by Robtard
DDM,

We already went over this in the MVF social thread, you repeating failed points that either me, Kortos and/or Neme have already crushed serves no purpose.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Neph, this is for you:

"Fwoosh! That's the sound of my point going over your head."

JK...but seriously, before you repeat your post again, here me out one more time:

If a particular character always starts a fight in a particular fashion, why would he/she suddenly drastically deviate from that manner?

That's not CIS/PIS at all. There's zero stupidity involved. I am citing a move (or type of move) Voldemort performs on screen multiple times in his fight sequences. I'm not making anything up, or purposely suggesting he'll do some random@ss suicidal maneuver.

This is why I also say:

"That's all fine and dandy, but "in-character tendencies" are implicit.""

Because they essentially are. The style of fighting a character employs is the basis of judging their combat abilities against another's. For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi knows the lightsaber form Ataru. But in an MVF, posters would say he uses his defensive form Soresu because that's his preferred form and the one he typically utilizes in a fight.

I already addressed everything you stated. You just simply repeated your arguments.

But, I'll type something new, since that's what you want:

If a characte were to do something that is limiting to their overall abilities, and it results in them losing a fight OR it creates a plot error...when they could have easily done something else to win or forgo a crap tone of plot, that is CIS and or PIS.

That is off.

In these threads, unless specified by the thread starter, all CIS/PIS is off. The characters will use their maximum abiltities to win. Forcing cahracters to do otherwise is a form of gimping. It's quite immature.

Regardless, Volde opening with AK STILL DOES NOT RESULT IN A LOSS at all.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I'm very much considering Gandalf's idiosyncrasies as well. Ergo, the 'story'/summary explanation I gave of how this battle would occur is in agreement with both Gandalf's and Voldemort's in-character tendencies.

you're not because he would monologue, FIRST, to try and convince the other side to change his ways. That's his thing. Gandalf the Wise, the bearer of bad news...the old man that talks a whole bunch.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I already included that. It was #3.

"3. Voldemort vs Harry OOTP Part I
OM: TK"

Sky Battle

#7

#8

#9

#10

#11

I'll review these later.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
🙄 Sure boss, Gandalf wins.

By your own admission, CIS/PIS is off and Voldemort wins in one of thousands of scenarios. You've already outlined how Voldemort can win, with his powers, against Gandalf, no matter what Gandalf does. That, for me, is the ultimate conession on your part. You know Voldemort wins but cling to conflicting ideas of what CIS/PIS are.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Specifically state which arguments otherwise this looks like another attempt to cheer lead the side you want to win.

All our arguments.

We've more than held our own and provided more than enough arguments than just "Gandalf=1337, he OMFG!!111 rage!stomps Voldemort 😱 " to prove why the Istari is the victor.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
All our arguments.

We've more than held our own and provided more than enough arguments than just "Gandalf=1337, he OMFG!!111 rage!stomps Voldemort 😱 " to prove why the Istari is the victor.

Ps. Deep down in your soul you know Voldemort wins. Just pm me agreed and I won't tell anyone.

Pss. I promise. 😛

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ps. Deep down in your soul you know Voldemort wins. Just pm me agreed and I won't tell anyone.

Pss. I promise. 😛

He does know.

He already told us how Voldemort wins. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
I already addressed everything you stated. You just simply repeated your arguments.

But, I'll type something new, since that's what you want:

If a characte were to do something that is limiting to their overall abilities, and it results in them losing a fight OR it creates a plot error...when they could have easily done something else to win or forgo a crap tone of plot, that is CIS and or PIS.

That is off.

In these threads, unless specified by the thread starter, all CIS/PIS is off. The characters will use their maximum abiltities to win. Forcing cahracters to do otherwise is a form of gimping. It's quite immature.

No, I'm not "limiting abilities" here; Voldemort still has access to all of his powers, but he still possess a certain battle style that results in a magical blast as his OM.

Regardless, Volde opening with AK STILL DOES NOT RESULT IN A LOSS at all.

Gandalf=Shield that blocks spell. Gandalf=Blinding Light that likely will cause misfire of spell in any case.

you're not because he would monologue, FIRST, to try and convince the other side to change his ways. That's his thing. Gandalf the Wise, the bearer of bad news...the old man that talks a whole bunch.

Are you serious? Give me credit when it's due, DDM.

If you want to play that way, I'll say Voldemort wouldn't win because he lacks complete killing instincts.

Like how he fails to kill Potter in two instances. One, in OOTP when instead of saying "So weak" he could have Killing Curse'd Potter and ended the series. Or in DHII when instead of beating and slapping Potter on the platforms he could have gone for the kill again, but failed to do so and let Harry pull both of them onto a Kamikaze fall.

I'll review these later.

Go ahead, but I have no reason to lie to you.

By your own admission, CIS/PIS is off and Voldemort wins in one of thousands of scenarios. You've already outlined how Voldemort can win, with his powers, against Gandalf, no matter what Gandalf does. That, for me, is the ultimate conession on your part. You know Voldemort wins but cling to conflicting ideas of what CIS/PIS are.

Did I? I mentioned examples of out-of-character tendencies, but I don't think I highlighted instances of Voldemort victory. Perhaps you want to provide such examples?

No...I'm rather adamant on my beliefs. Otherwise I wouldn't have vested this much time and effort into this thread if I didn't think so.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That isn't my point robtard just wants to talk trash and really doesn't have anything in mind other than taking a cheapshot at the Voldemort side.

Ps. Deep down in your soul you know Voldemort wins. Just pm me agreed and I won't tell anyone.

Pss. I promise. 😛

The truth is this:

Gandalf > Voldemort

He does know.

He already told us how Voldemort wins.

I do know.

I already told you Voldemort loses.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, I'm not "limiting abilities" here; Voldemort still has access to all of his powers, but he still possess a certain battle style that results in a magical blast as his OM.

If you limit his abilities to a certain set (by "most likely to do x"😉, then, yes, that's limiting.

You're gimping like a mo-fo. Please deny it more.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Gandalf=Shield that blocks spell. Gandalf=Blinding Light that [B]likely will cause misfire of spell in any case. [/B]

By the time he actually successfully activates blinding light, he's already dead. 😐

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Are you serious? Give me credit when it's due, DDM.

If you want to play that way, I'll say Voldemort wouldn't win because he lacks complete killing instincts.

Like how he fails to kill Potter in two instances. One, in OOTP when instead of saying "So weak" he could have Killing Curse'd Potter and ended the series. Or in DHII when instead of beating and slapping Potter on the platforms he could have gone for the kill again, but failed to do so and let Harry pull both of them onto a Kamikaze fall.

Or you could conclude, correctly, that Gandalf monologues everytime with his 1v1 fights. I mean...not just once or twice...but everytime.

Voldemort wanted to torture Harry, which is different: Gandalf is not Harry.

Voldemort killed lots and lots and lots of people. He certainly killed Harry's parents without hesitation. He certainly killed that Death Eater without hesitation during the Hogwarts shield busting scene.

What this means is you need to try harder.

Surely you can do better than "Duhhh...Voldemort hesitates to kill!" When you've been arguing for pages about why Voldemort will use AK first.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Go ahead, but I have no reason to lie to you.

crylaugh

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Did I? I mentioned examples of out-of-character tendencies, but I don't think I highlighted instances of Voldemort victory. Perhaps you want to provide such examples?

That's a strawman. Reported.

And...no. 😐

Go back and read just a couple of posts up. Then

Originally posted by Korto Vos
No...I'm rather adamant on my beliefs. Otherwise I wouldn't have vested this much time and effort into this thread if I didn't think so.

Not really: you think Voldemort wins. But you think arguing about it will make you feel better about how much you hate that fact.

You may want to have a seat on that couch before I continue. I have tissues.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
The truth is this:

[B] Gandalf > Voldemort [/B]

In power, variety, and versitility?

No.

In coolness, awesomness, wisdom, and niceness? Absolutely.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I do know.

I already told you Voldemort [B]loses. [/B]

Nah: you already outlined one of the 1 out of 1000 different ways Volde wins.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you limit his abilities to a certain set (by "most likely to do x"😉, then, yes, that's limiting.

You're gimping like a mo-fo. Please deny it more.

You obviously don't understand the rather simple point.
"I won't entertain this any longer from you."

By the time he actually successfully activates blinding light, he's already dead. 😐

Umm....Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli attack Gandalf in the Fangorn Forest, and the Blinding Light is instantly activated.

Or you could conclude, correctly, that Gandalf monologues everytime with his 1v1 fights. I mean...not just once or twice...but everytime.

Voldemort wanted to torture Harry, which is different: Gandalf is not Harry.

Voldemort killed lots and lots and lots of people. He certainly killed Harry's parents without hesitation. He certainly killed that Death Eater without hesitation during the Hogwarts shield busting scene.

What this means is you need to try harder.

Surely you can do better than "Duhhh...Voldemort hesitates to kill!" When you've been arguing for pages about why Voldemort will use AK first.

If you didn't read earlier, a previous post and my quotation were related to in-character Battle tendencies. Talking occurs *before* battles.

crylaugh

Something funny, brah?

That's a strawman. Reported.

And...no. 😐

Go back and read just a couple of posts up. Then

Sweet, I love being reported!

Not really: you think Voldemort wins. But you think arguing about it will make you feel better about how much you hate that fact.

You may want to have a seat on that couch before I continue. I have tissues.

crylaugh Too funny brah, too funny!

Originally posted by dadudemon
In power, variety, and versitility?

No.

In coolness, awesomness, wisdom, and niceness? Absolutely.

Don't forget " 1 v. 1 fight" as well! 😄

Nah: you already outlined one of the 1 out of 1000 different ways Volde wins.

Did I really? Not that it matters, but tell me one or two of these other not-in-character 1000 ways Voldy wins?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Don't forget " 1 v. 1 fight" as well! 😄

You...

You...

You bastard.

weep

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Did I really? Not that it matters, but tell me one or two of these other not-in-character 1000 ways Voldy wins?

Dude...same page. Just scroll up. I quoted you and everything.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
You obviously don't understand the rather simple point.
"I won't entertain this any longer from you."

Awesome.

So you admit that you're talking in circles.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Umm....Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli attack Gandalf in the Fangorn Forest, and the Blinding Light is [B]instantly activated. [/B]

It wasn't instant. 😬

Besides, how can you blind a cloud of smoke? 😬

Originally posted by Korto Vos
If you didn't read earlier, a previous post and my quotation were related to in-character Battle tendencies. Talking occurs *before* battles.

For Gandalf, it does. Nice try, though.

Gandalf even talks AFTER he starts battling...it's like...he's an old man (gaspity!)

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Something funny, brah?

*insert mom joke here*

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Sweet, I love being reported!

I reported that same post, again, for good measure. 😐

Originally posted by Korto Vos
crylaugh Too funny brah, too funny!

Those are "happy" tissues. 😉

Originally posted by Korto Vos
The truth is this:

[B] Gandalf > Voldemort

I do know.

I already told you Voldemort loses. [/B]

Ps. What I don't forgive is no one responding to our balls to the walls battlezone that took pieces of your soul.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Specifically state which arguments otherwise this looks like another attempt to cheer lead the side you want to win.

Didn't you pay attention these last 25+ pages? Figures you didn't, too busy rambling and trolling. But I'll repeat myself to you yet again: All the arguments were Voldermort is somehow more powerful, faster and/or a better wizard than Gandalf. All of those, especially the sillier ones where you masturbated Voldermort into being more powerful than his normal powerful self. Go back and read the last 25+ pages and pay attention this time. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That isn't my point robtard just wants to talk trash and really doesn't have anything in mind other than taking a cheapshot at the Voldemort side.

You need to lose your desperate need to win one over on me by trying to troll, it won't happen. Your obsession with me has crossed over from the realm of entertainment and into the depths of sadness. Come on, bro.