I honestly don't believe that White!Gandalf is that much better than Saruman {if at all}.
I watched The Two Towers last night and he struggled to hurl Saruman out of Theoden; interestingly, his first words to Aragorn and co. in Fangorn Forest were: I am Saruman. Or rather, Saruman as he should have been. He doesn't mention any enhanced powers-- the "should have been" phrase clearly refers to allegiance.
Breaking Saruman's staff always seemed to be symbolic of Gandalf kicking him out of the order, not because his power was stronger, but that his authority was.
I could, of course, be mistaken. But that's how it always appeared to me. But then I might just be nothing more than a Christopher Lee apologist.
Originally posted by Korto VosWell he wasn't fighting for that long against Saruman as opposed to the Balrog. I think he was just beaten.
He only lost that fight because he was exhausted and allowed Saruman to break through his defenses and snatch his staff. Still, Gandalf the White is on a whole new level.
Gandalf the white is more formidable but not on another level. If he was I don't think the Witch King could have done to him what he did.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir/thread. Can everyone STFU now?
I honestly don't believe that White!Gandalf is that much better than Saruman {if at all}.
I watched The Two Towers last night and he struggled to hurl Saruman out of Theoden; interestingly, his first words to Aragorn and co. in Fangorn Forest were: I am Saruman. Or rather, Saruman as he should have been. He doesn't mention any enhanced powers-- the "should have been" phrase clearly refers to allegiance.Breaking Saruman's staff always seemed to be symbolic of Gandalf kicking him out of the order, not because his power was stronger, but that his authority was.
I could, of course, be mistaken. But that's how it always appeared to me. But then I might just be nothing more than a Christopher Lee apologist.
Originally posted by Turr_PhennirIf I remember right, Saruman fell victim to the same thing that Melkor did: he spread his personal power so thin throughout his creations and machinations, that he was a left a comparative shell of his former self. So when Gandalf came back better than ever, he naturally eclipsed Saruman in power. And since he came back by the will of the Valar themselves (or perhaps Eru, but whatever) he came back with more heavenly authority. So book-wise, Gandalf had more of both for varying reasons.
Canadian, you've managed to conjure the patience and dedication required to troll through the Lord of the Rings {in both film and novel form}, so tell me how accurate my assessment is.
The movies suggest something similar, though they never outright state specifics. Saruman and Gandalf were at the very least equals in Fellowship, with Saruman just gaining the upper hand, and by King Gandalf had clearly surpassed him in power. We can garner that since the Valar (or was it Eru?) purposefully sent Gandalf back to be as Saruman "should have been", that he gained a 1-UP in authority.
So yeah, power and authority-wise, Gandalf the White is superior in the films--though the power discrepancy may be due only to Saruman's dilution. Either way, doesn't matter. G-White>>Chrisuman.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I wouldn't say that. Seemed to me that he struggled to throw Saruman out of Theoden.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree: it was due to Saruman's improper/naughty actions in the mortal realm that got Saruman kicked out....not necessarily because Gandalf was more powerful.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Breaking Saruman's staff always seemed to be symbolic of Gandalf kicking him out of the order, not because his power was stronger, but that his authority was.
You are both technically correct when the books are taken into consideration. But this doesn't really hold up in the movies as we see the Witch-King do the same exact same thing to Gandalf despite the fact that he is neither Istari nor good.
Same. As superior as the extended cut was, I like to think that Saruman didn't die in RotK, and instead waited until everyone was distracted while he plotted revenge. After Gandalf and Frodo left on the ship, S-Man filled his novelized position--conquering the Shire with an army of black dudes and slaughtering every midget he could find.
ares834
Where is the struggle?
At the 1:33 mark, you see Gandalf visibly gritting his teeth and setting forward, and this is after Saru!den managed to push himself forward in the throne despite Gandalf's multiple thrusts.
Additionally, we have Gandalf's roar during the final exchange and his heavy breathing after Saruman is removed.
It wasn't casual by any means.
ares834
But this doesn't really hold up in the movies as we see the Witch-King do the same exact same thing to Gandalf despite the fact that he is neither Istari nor good.
The Witch-King destroyed Gandalf's staff after brandishing his magic sword; it was a demonstration of power, with visible energy being unleashed on the Nazgul's part.
The staff itself being destroyed isn't what leads me to conclude that it was a display of authority, but the ease with which Gandalf did it: No fight from the "dangerous" {Gandalf's own words} Saruman, just the manifestation of Gandalf's words.
I edited the post above to include the second half of my response.
ares834
Oh, surely it was not casual. Furthermore, if what Saruman said is true than Gandalf would have to take precautions to not kill Theoden while extracting Saruman.
Do you mean to suggest that this is a cause of Gandalf's difficulty? I don't see where this is the case: Saruman's removal was forced {enough to hurl him across the chamber in the Orthanc}, indicating that Gandalf's sincere effort was in trying to expel his nemesis as quickly and as hard as possible.
Lucien
Same. As superior as the extended cut was, I like to think that Saruman didn't die in RotK, and instead waited until everyone was distracted while he plotted revenge. After Gandalf and Frodo left on the ship, S-Man filled his novelized position--conquering the Shire with an army of black dudes and slaughtering every midget he could find.
Powerless!Saruman is equally unappealing.
I haven't read the books in ages {and care not to repeat it; they were verbose and boring reads}, but I'd submit that the films do not indicate that Grey!Gandalf is equal to Saruman. In fact, I'd argue that Saruman was without question pulling his punches-- trying to convert Gandalf to the cause whereas Gandalf was trying to do everything within his power to escape.
With that in mind, and the fact that Saruman relieved Gandalf of his staff, and the fact that Grey!Gandalf was unable to overpower or repulse Saruman's magic-induced avalanche, I'd say the Grey!Gandalf is unquestionably inferior to Saruman.
All right, I'm done for the evening. L8r gentlemen.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The Witch-King destroyed Gandalf's staff after brandishing his magic sword; it was a demonstration of power, with visible energy being unleashed on the Nazgul's part.The staff itself being destroyed isn't what leads me to conclude that it was a display of authority, but the ease with which Gandalf did it: No fight from the "dangerous" {Gandalf's own words} Saruman, just the manifestation of Gandalf's words.
But there was a "fight". Saruman throws a fireball at Gandalf who then manages to easily dispell it which is just further proof of Gandalf's superiority.
Regardless, I see no need to differentiate between the two staff breaking moments. The scene with the Witch-King and Gandalf is clearly a question of power and is intended to mirror Gandalf's confrontation with Saruman. Which, TBH, also seems like a question of power as Gandalf leaves Saruman powerless and shows no difficulty in surviving Saruman's assualt.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Do you mean to suggest that this is a cause of Gandalf's difficulty? I don't see where this is the case: Saruman's removal was forced {enough to hurl him across the chamber in the Orthanc}, indicating that Gandalf's sincere effort was in trying to expel his nemesis as quickly and as hard as possible.
I do. If Saruman is being truthful when he mentions that if he goes Theoden dies as well than Gandalf had to have done something to prevent such from happening. Also I don't see how having Gandalf's removal of Saruman being through "force" somehow indicate that he wasn't trying to keep Theoden alive but intent on only Saruman's removal.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I honestly don't believe that White!Gandalf is that much better than Saruman {if at all}.
I watched The Two Towers last night and he struggled to hurl Saruman out of Theoden; interestingly, his first words to Aragorn and co. in Fangorn Forest were: I am Saruman. Or rather, Saruman as he should have been. He doesn't mention any enhanced powers-- the "should have been" phrase clearly refers to allegiance.Breaking Saruman's staff always seemed to be symbolic of Gandalf kicking him out of the order, not because his power was stronger, but that his authority was.
I could, of course, be mistaken. But that's how it always appeared to me. But then I might just be nothing more than a Christopher Lee apologist.
I have to object here.
Of course, Gandalf is more powerful than Saruman, because - in addition to "inheriting" Saruman's powers, he wields one of the three elven Rings of Power (Narya - the Ring of Fire), which would grant him abilities not available to Saruman. This might also be the explanation for Gandalfs ability to resist the fireball being thrown at him.
For your "authority theory": That may well be true. Yet, additional authority can mean higher power as well, provided who Gandalf serves, namely the Lords of the West (Valar) and possible even Illuvatar himself. The latter, to me, seems to be implied by what Gandalf experiences in his "death scene" after fighting the Balrog and how he is send back.
Gandalf would still lose to Voldemort, dear Potterhaters, because HP magic does have far more practical uses, than magic in the LotR universe, especially talking movies only...
Originally posted by dadudemon(You've descended into complete and utter circles, now.)
We BOTH are guilty of accusing each other, and as a result, our debate has completely diverged and deteriorated.
We can both continue finger-pointing at one another, but I'm going to bring an ends to it because it's a waste of time for both of us.
I am drawing attention to this:
No, in character tendencies (or plot elements), when they result in stupidity in the plot or character, are CIS/PIS.
No, it isn't. Look, if a particular character always starts a fight in a particular fashion, why would he/she suddenly drastically deviate from that manner?
I'm not saying anything ludicrous whatsoever. In-character [battle] tendencies are not CIS/PIS at all.
It's too late to add an "in character tendencies" clause to this thread because the forum rules state that the thread conditions must be cemented within the first few posts of the thread (we, liberally, take that to mean within the first page)
That's all fine and dandy, but "in-character tendencies" are implicit.
To argue something like Voldemort would start Apparating around the moment the fight begins, or Voldemort transports to the next hallway and casts Fiendfyre, is completely out-of-character and not going to happen.
=============================
I want to bring back my post regarding the opening moves of Voldemort in each of his combat instances. This time, even though all of them are either not combat situations or unimpressive showings and should be disregarded, I'll add your additions as well.
1. Voldemort vs. Harry- Graveyard Part I
OM: TK
2. Voldemort vs. Harry- Graveyard Part II
OM: Avada Kedavra
3. Voldemort vs Harry OOTP Part I
OM: TK
4. Voldemort vs. Dumbledore
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell
5. Voldemort vs. Harry OOTP Part II
OM: Occlumency
6. Voldemort vs. Snape
OM: Sectumsempra
7. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part I (when Harry flees)
OM: Incendio
8. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 2 (Hogwarts)
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell
9. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 3 (Platforms)
OM: Avada Kedavra-like spell
10. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 4 (Courtyard)
OM: Avada Kedavra
11. Voldemort vs. Harry DH Part 5 (Courtyard)
OM: Avada Kedavra
EDIT: 12. Voldemort vs. Harry (Sky Battle)
OM: Avada Kedavra
If you break this down:
3 AK-like spells
4 AK
1 Incendio
1 Occlumency
1 Sectumsempra
2 TK
You can consider the 4 AK + 3 AK-like spells + Incendio as one category, since Voldemort would be firing a magical blast (the Killing Curse or a fireball) at Gandalf. 8/12 times Voldemort is following this battle characteristic. I still maintain my interpretation that Gandalf's all-purpose Shield would block this attack, and Voldemort's wand is spontaneously burned or shattered within several seconds of this duel.