I'm not mad. I just call bullshit.
*rings phone*
??? : "Hello?"
Me: "Is this bullshit? Hi, I'm Nephthys."
???: "How did you get this number?"
At least say what part you're using from each scenes. When they're sword fighting but still have shields, when they lose the shields, when they use spears for Troy etc
Originally posted by Nephthys
At least say what part you're using from each scenes. When they're sword fighting but still have shields, when they lose the shields, when they use spears for Troy etc
I don't get what you're asking.
imetu...ihu
Which scene did you use that showed more than 15 and less than 3?
Can you find better for either?
Originally posted by Nephthys
The scenes I posted on the last page. And the quote at the top of this page.
I see what you're talking about, now. I didn't know you quoted me and actually responded waaaaay up the page.
So you're actually interested in two objective ways to go about measuring abilities?
Nice. 👆
Most just want to talk about their fav and insult each other.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Until you start making sense I'm assuming your trolling.
😐
"your trolling" huh?
Does it really belong to me or can you have it, too?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I see what you're talking about, now. I didn't know you quoted me and actually responded waaaaay up the page.So you're actually interested in two objective ways to go about measuring abilities?
Nice. 👆
Most just want to talk about their fav and insult each other.
Of course I am. Is that what your made-up bullshit is? An effort to get us to actually pay attention to scenes and use 'objective' means of measuring abilities?
Originally posted by dadudemon
😐"your trolling" huh?
Does it really belong to me or can you have it, too?
I cannot have it because I do not troll. Could you explain what the 'imetu...ihu' thing is? The most I can find is that 'ihu' is Estonian for 'body', and it doesn't appear to be an anagram.
Originally posted by Robtard
Considering the time it takes Hector to reach the temple after Achilles' spear hits his man, it's not hundreds of yards. The horses were trotting.
Well, we can do one better than that.
It's sort of like a parallax (lol).
Measure the height of Achilles, in pixels, against the height of one of the people on the horses.
Then compare the two. Come up with the transformation (by assuming they are equal in height) and then you can guess how far away he is with some basic trig (law of cosines).
That's why I wanted an HD vid so I could get a screen cap and then measure the pixels from both.
It's very hard to do without two photos from different positions...because then you can just do some parallaxing calcs. So we have to use other cheater methods.
Based on what I saw, it's between 150-220 yards. There are some "cuts" so we do not know if time was cut out. Do you really want to see some horses trotting along for 20 seconds to cross that gap?
I don't think so. Neither does the director. But we can clearly see how far the distance is and it's quite far.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course I am. Is that what your made-up bullshit is? An effort to get us to actually pay attention to scenes and use 'objective' means of measuring abilities?
Do you disagree that Ki-Andi-Mundi was overwhelmed by 4 or 5 clone troopers?
The speed of the blaster bolts can be debated, of course, but they are generally in the 50-200 km/h range. Very few travel much faster than 200 km/h...using frame by frame and the sizes of known objects.
We can conclude that someone can be overwhelming by enough speed because they cannot move their saber fast enough. I would not conclude that their battle precog is the thing overwhelmed: it's their ability to move fast enough.
The other thing is the strikes per second. If you can move a saber resistant saber fast enough...you can overwhelm a Jedi's ability to move fast enough to react. Again, that's disregarding their ability to sense it with battle precog: they may still sense where the next strike will be...but lack the ability to react fast enough.
I, of course, would like to stick to high-end feats. None of this "battle precog failed" stuff like the Yoda in Palps office stuff.
Those ways of approaching thiis are quite objective because you're literally taking screen feats and measuring them against each other.
To give either character better screen feats that were actually measured, could be called BS no matter which side tries to do it.
For instance, if Anakin moves faster with his saber blows (yes, homo) than Achilles was seen reacting to, then by feats, Achilles cannot win. Even IF people scream and shout that Achilles could react faster if he needed to. It doesn't count because we have to stick to feats (that would change if someone said something like, "Achilles can go twice as fast if he needs to...I've seen him do it in training. He doesn't do so because he wants to keep things fun". However, nothing like that was stated...ever...for either side. So no surprises. Stick to what is on screen.)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I cannot have it because I do not troll.
That still makes no sense.
😆
Originally posted by dadudemonSounds like a "limits fallacy"... biscuits
Those ways of approaching thiis are quite objective because you're literally taking screen feats and measuring them against each other.To give either character better screen feats that were actually measured, could be called BS no matter which side tries to do it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you disagree that Ki-Andi-Mundi was overwhelmed by 4 or 5 clone troopers?
No. Though I will point out that Mundi was clearly utterly bewildered by the clones firing on him, and was likely suffering from it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The speed of the blaster bolts can be debated, of course, but they are generally in the 50-200 km/h range. Very few travel much faster than 200 km/h...using frame by frame and the sizes of known objects.We can conclude that someone can be overwhelming by enough speed because they cannot move their saber fast enough. I would not conclude that their battle precog is the thing overwhelmed: it's their ability to move fast enough.
I don't really know what you're on about here or see the relevence. Though I'll point out that this is not strictly true. Because of precog a Jedi can react to something before it happens, unabling them to be subvert not having enough speed to, say, dodge Achilles spear, by already having dodged it by the time he throws it.
You can see it here when Luke clearly moves his lightsaber before the droid even shoots:
Luke doesn't have any Jedi powers yet but he's still able to block teh shots by being in position before it fires.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The other thing is the strikes per second. If you can move a saber resistant saber fast enough...you can overwhelm a Jedi's ability to move fast enough to react. Again, that's disregarding their ability to sense it with battle precog: they may still sense where the next strike will be...but lack the ability to react fast enough.
While I agree, precognition is still a massive advantage in a duel. Plus Jedi have superhuman reactions and speed anyway.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I, of course, would like to stick to high-end feats. None of this "battle precog failed" stuff like the Yoda in Palps office stuff.
Yeah. Those scenes I just chalk up to Lucas being a twit.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Those ways of approaching thiis are quite objective because you're literally taking screen feats and measuring them against each other.To give either character better screen feats that were actually measured, could be called BS no matter which side tries to do it.
For instance, if Anakin moves faster with his saber blows (yes, homo) than Achilles was seen reacting to, then by feats, Achilles cannot win. Even IF people scream and shout that Achilles could react faster if he needed to. It doesn't count because we have to stick to feats (that would change if someone said something like, "Achilles can go twice as fast if he needs to...I've seen him do it in training. He doesn't do so because he wants to keep things fun". However, nothing like that was stated...ever...for either side. So no surprises. Stick to what is on screen.)
I'm not calling BS on you because I dislike you using an objective method of measuring feats. I'm calling BS on you becuase you are clearly wrong.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That still makes no sense.😆
Does it not make sense?
Or sense not it does make?
Think about it.
Originally posted by ares834
Sounds like a "limits fallacy"... biscuits
Theres no such thing.
Originally posted by BorbaradMy point is that Anakin lives through battles and gets second chances most warriors never see. He gets defeated by both Dooku and Obi yet lives. His entire history is mired by humiliating defeats and tampering. Dooku wasn't supposed to win because Palpatine's an ass and Obi just let Vader kill him the next time they met.
Your point? Where may it be?
I don't see how the art of storytelling in the SW universe saves Achilles from getting killed. The same applies to Palpatine's wishes regarding the duel between Anakin and Dooku. Red herring?
He was unstable because he gave into his hate. You're not supposed to do so as a jedi. Do you watch these movies ?
Anakin, in this situation, was far away from an emotional unstable state. He was focused on using his darker emotions against Dooku. He hated the Count, he wanted him dead, he focused on his hatred to archive what he wanted. [/B]
No, he isn't totally insane just more unstable. The whole film shows him become gradually more unstable as it progresses. Here we go with the excuses. I don't respect these tactics. You claim clones doesn't count now one of his saber fights in rots. You're argument is weak and you know it hence the excuses and cherry picking.
The situation in which he fights Obi-Wan is entirely different. He's totally insane there, to the point in which he almost kills his beloved wife, because of assuming she smuggled Obi-Wan to him. Then he engages in a duel with the guy that he went to all kind of shit with for the past 13 years. As Obi-Wan states: "We were brothers!" It's absolutely impossible, that Anakin did utilize the same focus that he used against Dooku and it's likewise impossible, that this scenario will be replicated in his virtual fight against Achilles.He will either fight the Jedi way: Cool, without emotion, controlled or utilize his focused anger against Achilles. Either way, the Greek fighter is toast. [/B]
Save Achilles. He's in a class by himself and well above mortals.
Elite of an order of superhumans > upper crust of regular mortals. End of story. [/B]
No, it wouldn't. Anakin's emotions would run wild and he'd make a mistake like he has in the past. Achilles' shield would also dramatically change the fight with what Anakin is used to.
You can give him lightsaber resistant weapons and remove Anakin's active force powers as long as you want - it doesn't change the fact, that Anakin's passive force abilities (boost of physical attributes, precognition) as well as his mechanical arm and an almost weightless blade with a reach advantage on Achilles, would be enough to win this fight. [/B]
You didn't prove anything. Most people agree with no vested interest in our debate. You cite the majority in a post also. Hypocrite.
Appeal to majority, logical fallacy. I have proven that nothing he does is actually superhuman and everybody with the slightes insight in melee combat and armed combat in general, will tell you just the same.
[/B]
Those aren't elite warriors with a shield. Achilles is an elite warrior who isn't some barely maneuverable drone.
Really? Did you, by chance, miss the fully shielded Droidekas that all Jedi did combat for three years between AotC and RotS. I'm just asking. I bet circumventing a 360° shield requires more effort than dealing with a normal one.And seriously: Without the outright nerfs for Anakin and boost for Achilles introduced in your start posting, there wouldn't even be a debate here. If we were allowed to include the EU, there wouldn't be a debate here. If we would accept the TV show as canon, there wouldn't be any debate here. If you would accept the on screen demonstrations of the Jedis abilities, there wouldn't be a debate here. [/B]
This is the movie versus forum so please quit with the eu bs. Achilles is from one movie you want or honestly think it's fair to start including eu feats. You're dishonorable.
Concession accepted.
Appeal to majority, logical fallacy. Already dealt with that crap. [/B]
This thread is about who is a better swordsman. Achilles doesn't fight against people with supernatural force crushing powers. Try and think. They are chanting it mainly due to frustration but with the sudden realization I have won their hearts and minds.
So the ability to use the force isn't part of Anakin's skills? 🙂
And I imagine that many people are chanting "Quanchi", too. Just in my imagination, they usually at a "Get lost" or "You suck" in front of it. 🙂Oh. You see. I'm not trying to make a point for my side, by citing the majority. I'm merely attempting to get you in contact with reality again.
You're clearly insane. Makes it all the more entertaining for me. I'll be back with some popcorn and a coke tomorrow. [/B]
Says the guy who says this doesn't count oh but eu counts.
When you finally concede i will take your soul.
Originally posted by RobtardAchilles moved the entire fight so him moving changes things as you freely admit. Not even breaking your skin isn't almost killing anyone. Achilles was surprised that even happened since no one even touched his armor prior to. That's not close to being beaten that's close to touching skin. LOL.
Achilles moved back at the last moment and the sword grazed his chest-piece instead of opening his throat, genius. It was more than Achilles expected though, hence that look on his face that someone almost managed to kill him.Now you're arguing agaibst Achilles' own words of 'I'll not have a rock steal my glory', figures.
More nonsense, what happened in the fight supersedes what you imagined. Crying nonsense won't change the film.
Yes, and he lets him up. He didn't have to give him time it's a fight to the death be aware of your surroundings.
Achilles won't toss his shield here. Achilles will kill Vader.
Originally posted by ares834
Sounds like a "limits fallacy"... biscuits
No it's not.
Limits fallacy is only a fallacy when you apply a limit when no known limit occurs or if you place a non sequitur limit.
In this case, a limit IS known.
Proper limits fallacy:
Suppose 1: A magical shield that can only be taken down by an anti-magical-shield power.
The Fallacy: Assuming that sufficient physical force will break the shield.
Improper limits Fallacy:
Suppose 1: A character is measured as moving at a certain speed and maximum effort was observed (i.e....his or her life directly depended upon moving quickly OR they came close to being hurt during this fight).
The improper fallacy: "That's imposing a limits fallacy because he or she can move faster than that if they want to."
Conclusion: if a character's been pushed to the limit (i.e., he barely dodged a sword swipe and almost lost his head), then we know the proper limit. Asserting a higher limit than the one observed as being "max" must have some backing. Such as, "he or she was holding back because I saw he or she going twice as fast in practice". As fact, I explained that in the post.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. Though I will point out that Mundi was clearly utterly bewildered by the clones firing on him, and was likely suffering from it.
That's quite irrelevant, actually.
We see many Jedi fall in Episode II, so we know that it was "in character" for a well trained Jedi to fall to too many sources of blast fire.
We also know that a faster more skilled saber duelist can easily overwhelm other masters such as Sidious making a killing during the attempted arrest.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't really know what you're on about here or see the relevence. Though I'll point out that this is not strictly true. Because of precog a Jedi can react to something before it happens, unabling them to be subvert not having enough speed to, say, dodge Achilles spear, by already having dodged it by the time he throws it.You can see it here when Luke clearly moves his lightsaber before the droid even shoots:
Luke doesn't have any Jedi powers yet but he's still able to block teh shots by being in position before it fires.
Yes, I'm aware that a force user reacts.
Thep problem is reacting to more than one of sufficient speed: no Jedi can move past a certain limit, even in the EU. The best feat I can think of is Luke moving so fast it look like he had 20 sabers (but not shutter effect occurs with the eyes...so I don't see how that's possible ...but..hey....it's a feat in the EU).
I do not contend that his throwing spear will, singularly, overwhelm battle precog. I only contend that it can be thrown fast enough to meet the requirement to exceed measured reactions.
I am NOT supporting the Achilles side. However, I am more than willing to make concessions. The burden is on the Achilles's supporters to explain or come up with something about the speedy spear throw helping win.
It was brought up, I researched it, and I conclude that it can be thrown fast enough to exceed "Jedi reflexes". It meets the speed requirement. Let the achilles people decide from there.
imetu...ihu
Originally posted by Nephthys
While I agree, precognition is still a massive advantage in a duel. Plus Jedi have superhuman reactions and speed anyway.
It can easily be argued that Achilles has that same exact battle precog because no person, ever, could fight with a sword and shield as quickly and efficiently as Achilles did in his several scenes. No, when I say "ever", that's what I mean: ever.
Never ever ever ever.
It's a choregraphed scene which means that is practiced until it meets a certain "quickness" and "smoothness" requirement. It's the same exact thing as a saber duel: it's supposed to illustrate their literal superhuman abilities.
This may seem off...but...
Pretty much any modern martial arts film shows the same type of "battle precog". Rather than it being precog, it is passed off as reactionary intuition: years of training mixed in with skills produces what looks like battle precog but it's just intuition.
No human could every replicate those scenarios in the real world, though.
So I see the argument as boiling down to whomever is actually faster. They are both "battle precgo": one being mystical and one being intuition based.
It's a moot point. We know Jedi can be overwhelmed with enough sources or fast enough speed..., so we just compare the two and throw out "battle precognition" and "battle intuition".
I feel that both characters have sufficient "sneakiness" and "precision" to make a sneak attack on the other. It's a matter of who is faster.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah. Those scenes I just chalk up to Lucas being a twit.
I agree...and I try, like a stupid Lucas apologist, to explain why those scenes eve occur. I never feel adequately justified when I make those claims, either.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not calling BS on you because I dislike you using an objective method of measuring feats. I'm calling BS on you becuase you are clearly wrong.
Okay. Good. 👆
In fact, that's really good. Unlike others, I do not mind being factually proven wrong. It's only when I am not factually proven wrong but lied to that I care.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does it not make sense?Or sense not it does make?
Think about it.
You can have "your trolling" back: here.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no such thing.
Yes there is.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's quite irrelevant, actually.We see many Jedi fall in Episode II, so we know that it was "in character" for a well trained Jedi to fall to too many sources of blast fire.
We also know that a faster more skilled saber duelist can easily overwhelm other masters such as Sidious making a killing during the attempted arrest.
Was it irrelevent or did you just not think hard enough about the example you used?
Yes, I know. You'll note that I agreed with you.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, I'm aware that a force user reacts.Thep problem is reacting to more than one of sufficient speed: no Jedi can move past a certain limit, even in the EU. The best feat I can think of is Luke moving so fast it look like he had 20 sabers (but not shutter effect occurs with the eyes...so I don't see how that's possible ...but..hey....it's a feat in the EU).
I do not contend that his throwing spear will, singularly, overwhelm battle precog. I only contend that it can be thrown fast enough to meet the requirement to exceed measured reactions.
I am NOT supporting the Achilles side. However, I am more than willing to make concessions. The burden is on the Achilles's supporters to explain or come up with something about the speedy spear throw helping win.
It was brought up, I researched it, and I conclude that it can be thrown fast enough to exceed "Jedi reflexes". It meets the speed requirement. Let the achilles people decide from there.
imetu...ihu
Meh, I don't really have anything to say to this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It can easily be argued that Achilles has that same exact battle precog because no person, ever, could fight with a sword and shield as quickly and efficiently as Achilles did in his several scenes. No, when I say "ever", that's what I mean: ever.
Well you would fail in arguing that point. Achilles is highly skilled, nothing more.
Hector sure as shit did a good job of fighting him. He struck Achilles first after all. And Hector is a normal man.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Never ever ever ever.It's a choregraphed scene which means that is practiced until it meets a certain "quickness" and "smoothness" requirement. It's the same exact thing as a saber duel: it's supposed to illustrate their literal superhuman abilities.
This may seem off...but...
Pretty much any modern martial arts film shows the same type of "battle precog". Rather than it being precog, it is passed off as reactionary intuition: years of training mixed in with skills produces what looks like battle precog but it's just intuition.
No human could every replicate those scenarios in the real world, though.
I really don't see it personally. Nothing suggests Achilles has superhuman 'battle awareness' as Quan puts it. Its just another example of him hyping someone to hell and back. And nothing he does is superhuman. Merely very skilled.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So I see the argument as boiling down to whomever is actually faster. They are both "battle precgo": one being mystical and one being intuition based.
Achilles does not have precog. 🙄
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's a moot point. We know Jedi can be overwhelmed with enough sources or fast enough speed..., so we just compare the two and throw out "battle precognition" and "battle intuition".
It isn't a moot point. Anakin literally knows what Achilles' next attack is going to be. He has a massive advantage over him. This is on top of the many other advantages he has over Achilles. Seriously this thread should be over. Achilles pretty much can't win this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I feel that both characters have sufficient "sneakiness" and "precision" to make a sneak attack on the other. It's a matter of who is faster.
How can they sneak attack when they're facing each other in a duel?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Okay. Good. 👆In fact, that's really good. Unlike others, I do not mind being factually proven wrong. It's only when I am not factually proven wrong but lied to that I care.
It would help if you'd answer my questions so I can prove you factually wrong. 😆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Was it irrelevent or did you just not think hard enough about the example you used?
That's my line: you didn't think hard enough about the reasoning of why Mundi fell and gave the wrong reason: the correct reason is he fell due to being overwhelmed...as did most Jedi who were ready even after the initial order.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, I don't really have anything to say to this.
Just like most our arguments in the MVF, we actually agree on the outcome. So it actually doesn't matter in the end, really.
I don't think Achilles has the speed or precision to win against Anakin. Anakin wins 10 out of 10 times. And that's the gimped version.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well you would fail in arguing that point. Achilles is highly skilled, nothing more.Hector sure as shit did a good job of fighting him. He struck Achilles first after all. And Hector is a normal man.
I woudl also argue that Hector is not a normal man, either. Because the fights are choreographed and practiced/executed over and over...it all comes out to about the same in the end: fights that are superhuman in nature because they could not ever occur in the real world (real trojan warriors (no homo)). That type of precision is impossible and if you notice, some intances show Achilles not even looking where he swings.
Either we take a step back and see what is actually happening or we pretend in something mystical.
Both are choreographed fights to show "awesomeness" but result in superhuman feats of precision and speed during battle.
That applies to many many action movies, not just these two (cut me some slack on "two).
Originally posted by Nephthys
I really don't see it personally. Nothing suggests Achilles has superhuman 'battle awareness' as Quan puts it. Its just another example of him hyping someone to hell and back. And nothing he does is superhuman. Merely very skilled.
I'll note that I'm not arguing the same thing as Quan. That shield to the back thing can be counted as pure luck.
I'm talking about swinging a sword and shield around with literally impossible speed and precision (I'm not saying that he moves it faster than humanly possible...I'm saying the speed coupled with the preciseness if very much impossible in the real world...mostly because the fight is choreographed and practiced over and over...something that could not happen in the real world, ever, for a fight. It's much messier and ugly than the martial arts crap we see in the movies.)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Achilles does not have precog. 🙄
I don't think he does, either.
It's different names for the same thing: the same result of fast and precise movements.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't a moot point. Anakin literally knows what Achilles' next attack is going to be. He has a massive advantage over him. This is on top of the many other advantages he has over Achilles. Seriously this thread should be over. Achilles pretty much can't win this.
And that same exact argument can be applied to Achilles: he knows, by intuition, where the next "dude" will be or the next sword strike will be and he reacts to it before it occurs.
You can say that's precog, but I won't: it's intuition.
For Anakin, it's battle precog (a label we the fans invented years ago). It's called "Jedi Reflexes" by Qui Gon.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How can they sneak attack when they're facing each other in a duel?
It's difficult to explain. But the Jedi do it to.
Strike down, and instantly kick when the other person blocks. That's what I call "sneaky" fighting. It's an intelligent way to fight because you quickly do all sorts of "sneaky" sh*t...all over the place, to get the drop on your opponent.
Thats pretty much Achilles main fighting style: diversionary sneaky stuff that is meant to throw the opponent in a negative or indefenseable position.
Strike with the left hand, forcing a guard, and stab with the other when they physically cannot move quick enough. It's like chess: force a move from your opponent so you can check mate them in another move.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It would help if you'd answer my questions so I can prove you factually wrong. 😆
NEVAH!!!!!!
imetu...ihu!
I made spelling mistakes like indefensible (maybe...I didn't go back and look by I think Imade a typo). But I don't care to proofread. deal with my dirty posts.