Achilles vs. Darth Vader (ROTS pre suit)

Also, Obi-Wan was considered the best defensive fighter in the Universe at the time of movies 1-3. He'd mastered Soresu(The Defensive third form) to the point that getting through his defense was nearly impossible if that's all he was focused on. The fact that Anakin had him on the ropes towards the end was highly impressive. If he hadn't been so rage driven, he'd have killed Obi-Wan then and there. Pre-cog had nothing to do with it, it was him giving in to his dark emotions so fully that he made a dumb decision. That's like a guy getting piss drunk, then trying to fight the 6'7, 400lb MMA world champion whose making googly eyes at his girlfriend.

And to defeat Dooku with the ease he did was astonishing. As Borbarad has pointed out several times, Dooku was one of the best lightsaber duelists around, as the Makashi form was specifically based on saber to saber combat and he was the most powerful Force User in the galaxy after Sidious and Yoda, and probably around Windu's level overall, who was himself just after Yoda and Sidious. And while it's weakness was against blaster fire and multiple opponents, Dooku was good enough that it was a moot point, shown when he sonned Ani and Obi at the same time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was gone forever but I got the saddest pm from robtard. He begged me not to go. I'm a sucker for grown men crying like babies.

Yoda was clearly winning the fight and has proven himself to be greater than Dooku. Dooku may have stalemated him in a contest of the knowledge of the force but in a saber battle it's clear Yoda was superior.

Casually blocking an arrow while engaging opponents to me is superior than to focusing purely on battle blaster fire. The eyeball test usually never fails. If you're telling me the scene with Achilles storming the beach isn't more impressive I don't think you are being entirely honest with yourself. I don't think so as long as his equipment can withstand the attacks. What's unfair is making him go up against sophisticated weaponry with his ancient weaponry.

Obi barely bested Grievous. It was due to a gun being in the right McClane place at the right McClane time.

I do without a doubt.

Obi had a lot on his mind as well as his own padawan he trained despite the council's worries who ended up resulting in the destruction of the jedi temple. He saw him kill younglings and Anakin put him in a position of having to almost kill him. You just see things from vader's perspective not Obi's. Translation in battle put aside your girly emotions and destroy your enemies. That's something Vader can't do.

Can't be bothered to feed the troll anymore.

Neph, source as to Dooku being the best duelist alive?

It was shown in the movies that at the time of his death, he was basically in the top 5.

And it was stated more than a few times in the EU how deadly he was with a saber.

Sidious
Yoda
Dooku
Obi-Wan
Anakin
Windu

Those were the best duelists in the galaxy at the time of the prequels.

We're having a similar discussion in the EU section and if we look to the films alone, I might agree with your list.

But on-topic, Neph made a claim that Dooku was the most gifted duelist alive and cited Lucas and Gillard as sources. I'm looking for clarification.

I wouldn't say he was the most gifted. If he had the skills he did at the time of his death and say, was in the prime of his life, then yes, he arguably could have been the best duelist period. But old age is an impediment.

Although, in terms of sheer dueling prowess, he was probably the most technically skilled in saber combat, despite not being the best.

I'm not sure I'd even agree with that.
Yoda, according to The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, is a definitive master of all forms of lightsaber combat and he had eight centuries with which to hone his skills.

But Dooku even faces stiff competition from Mace and possibly Sidious himself; Mace's form, Vaapad, is considered in the EU to be the most dangerous and demanding form and is also a continuation of Juyo, which requires its practitioners to be "high end masters of multiple forms" {Fight Saber}. Likewise, Maul is a master of Juyo, which indicates Sidious himself is one.

I'd say Dooku is more technically gifted than Sidious, given his decades-long double life as a politician. But I'm not sure I'd put him beyond Mace and certainly not Yoda.

I didn't say would have, I said could have. And honestly I did forget about Maul for a second, only reason he went down is because he got cocky.

KingD19
I didn't say would have, I said could have. And honestly I did forget about Maul for a second, only reason he went down is because he got cocky.

I was speaking of technical ability, which is what you said he "probably" was. I'm not sure I can give him the nod even there.

Samuel L Jackson is the best duelist.

Fact.

If you ask me, I venture to say Dooku would have a very difficult time against Kenobi in a strictly lightsaber duel.

It has been years since I've read the ROTS novelization, but watching the Duel On the Invisible Hand onscreen, both Kenobi and Skywalker came out on the attack using secondary forms (which we know as Ataru & Shien). Neither of them used their preferred forms. If the argument is made that Anakin wasn't in the "zone," why is the same not made for Obi-Wan? Dooku dominated them both before Kenobi was removed and Anakin could revert to an all-out Djem So barage. In fact, from what I saw in the films, even if they reverted to their true styles, their forms seemed to clash. Kenobi's true prowess lies in his defensive capabilities (thanks to him being the greatest practitioner of Soresu), but in the films he goes on the offensive, which I see as exposing his defenses. To me, in a one-on-one duel, Kenobi is not going to just charge, Ataru style, and get incapacitated by Dooku's Force powers. I think saying Dooku will eliminate Kenobi in seconds makes no sense. In a 1 vs. 1, I feel the only way Dooku would be able to defeat Kenobi is through his superior command of the Force. But even then, it definitely won't be some rage!stomp. In fact, I absolutely hate it when someone makes an argument saying "Dooku kills Kenobi in 5 seconds." Bullsh1t.

That's my opinion of course. Words from a crazy man. Take it as you wish.

All I know is no one beats Windu in a lightsaber duel, especially someone on the dark side.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Considering you severe inability to understand fiction, I have to say, that you're wrong here. Anakin did simple maw down one of the greatest duellist in the Galaxy (Dooku) who was second only to Yoda (and perhabs Sidious) with apparent ease. That is his level of skill in his "best shape". You want to discuss anything else but his best shape? You're wrong here.

If there would be evidence for Achilles getting slapped in his face as a three year old, would that count as evidence for his combat skills as an adult? No. You ignore three years of character development, despite Lucas put it in his movie for the most supreme idiots, by putting the same characters in the same situation and have Anakin act totally different. No flood of text will help you to gloss over that fact. Argument destroyed. Moving on. [/B]

Really? According to Anakin, he is "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as master Yoda". And, yes, you need to be Yoda or Windu to compete with Sidious - who is just the most powerful creature alive at that point in the Galaxy (save for Yoda). Your point? [/B]

I'm afraid: Movie > your personal interpretation. Next. [/B]

Yup. I literally tremble with fear, because of my angst that your stupidity could be contageous and that I'm losing IQ points by just reading your post - not even talking about answering them. [/B]

One quadrillion beings in the Galaxy did look up to Anakin. Greek army pales in comparison. Was that an argument? Does "being on top of lesser mortals" now mean you're superior of to one of the top combatants of an order of superhuman beings? Apparently, this is how logic works in the Quanchiverse. [/B]

Any skilled fighter with his amount of training could replicate his feats, as he doesn't exhibit one single superhuman skill on screen, which was the intention of the people who made this movie (hence them leaving the Gods out of the equation and Achilles invunerability). [/B]

Thanks for ignoring what your quoted in order to open another pointless discussion. Their skills as commanders don't matter here, and hence I didn't mention the topic. So what are you replying to? [/B]

Pot. Kettle. Black. 🙄

You mean, you have more people to either bore to death with your repetition of previously defeated points or entertain with your stupidity? Move on, Quanchi. [/B]

Originally posted by Nephthys

Can't be bothered to feed the troll anymore.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you can't continue to debate with me just walk silently into the night.

😆

It's so stupid that it's funny. 👆 I can picture it as a quivering lower lip.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he defeated Dooku after losing his first matchup to later fine tune his skills. Palpatine also wanted Anakin as his apprentice and most jedi's and sith don't live past losing duels. Anakin was lucky to get the second chance in the first place.

You do still ignore the fact, that Dooku was one of the greatest duellist in the Galaxy and had six decades of training and experience on Anakin. Would you take that into consideration, please?

I am not citing examples of Anakin as a three year old so please quit being all dramatic on me. Anakin has gotten better but still despite his vast improvements from clones to rots he still loses to Obi who was Dooku's *****. He clearly overmatched Obi yet lost. Argument with held.

No. You're citing examples, in which Anakin is emotionally unstable in order to talk him down. I've explained that to you multiple times by now. You keep ignoring it.

So you agree that neither Anakin and Obi are in the elite upper crust of the jedi/sith. Awesome.

What did I misinterpret ?

They are the upper crust of the Jedi/Sith in the movies. They are among the top five of an order that features 10,000 Jedi. How is that not "upper crust". That they aren't capable of defeating a guy with 800 years of experience and training and a similar powerful Sith Lord, who are more powerful force users doesn't say anything about their skill with a lightsaber, which is the thing that matters here.

One quadrillion beings weren't warriors or soldiers.

Oh noes. Just several billion of them belonged to armies, security personal and otherwise armed and trained forces. Being admired doesn't win fights. Being trained from infancy on in the use of a weapon totally beyond the imagination of your opponent and being gifted with supernatural powers does.

The people who were cheering Achilles were warriors and soldiers. Achilles stood out among all other fighters as the absolute pinnacle of elite warrior.

Who cares? He will be pitted up in a fight against a guy with superhuman abilities totally beyond anything Achilles has done. That he is the best of his ilk, doesn't mean he is able to defeat Jedi or Sith - which he isn't.

Achilles was well beyond anyone in his entire movie and so far beyond he could definitely compete with the upper and greatest sith/jedi. He's a very special boy.

We all, I guess, have realized by now, that Achilles is your personal love interest. Excuse us, who aren't moved by this deep emotional affects, because we can't share your general unjustified blind faith in the character, nor see everything he does as godlike deed. To us, not into him, he looks like the apex of human ability at his time - he might be the best warrior on the planet. The point is: He is still human. He lacks the access to a mythical energy field, that allows him to boost his physical attributes to a level mortal beings can't archive.

So despite of your efforts to push him on a pedestal, by starting this thread with a biased setup that favors Achilles and nerfs Anakin, he will still lose. Hard.

Most disagree outside the star wars faithful but hey I won't hold your bias against you.

Everybody here has disagreed with your arguments by now. This could be a reason to reconsider your points, instead of attempting to hand them in again and again.

You have finally conceded. You have forced me to repeat myself. You first.

🙄

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do still ignore the fact, that Dooku was one of the greatest duellist in the Galaxy and had six decades of training and experience on Anakin. Would you take that into consideration, please?

No. You're citing examples, in which Anakin is emotionally unstable in order to talk him down. I've explained that to you multiple times by now. You keep ignoring it. [/B]

They are the upper crust of the Jedi/Sith in the movies. They are among the top five of an order that features 10,000 Jedi. How is that not "upper crust". That they aren't capable of defeating a guy with 800 years of experience and training and a similar powerful Sith Lord, who are more powerful force users doesn't say anything about their skill with a lightsaber, which is the thing that matters here. [/B]

Oh noes. Just several billion of them belonged to armies, security personal and otherwise armed and trained forces. Being admired doesn't win fights. Being trained from infancy on in the use of a weapon totally beyond the imagination of your opponent and being gifted with supernatural powers does. [/B]

Who cares? He will be pitted up in a fight against a guy with superhuman abilities totally beyond anything Achilles has done. That he is the best of his ilk, doesn't mean he is able to defeat Jedi or Sith - which he isn't.
[/B]

Your out refusal to admit the plain obvious truth shows you simply are downplaying this character simply for Anakin to get the win. Both are superhuman so let it go. Achilles can definitely defeat the upper crust of the sith after a long fight. Especially considering a shield is something none of them are used to going up against.

We all, I guess, have realized by now, that Achilles is your personal love interest. Excuse us, who aren't moved by this deep emotional affects, because we can't share your general unjustified blind faith in the character, nor see everything he does as godlike deed. To us, not into him, he looks like the apex of human ability at his time - he might be the best warrior on the planet. The point is: He is still human. He lacks the access to a mythical energy field, that allows him to boost his physical attributes to a level mortal beings can't archive.
[/B]

So despite of your efforts to push him on a pedestal, by starting this thread with a biased setup that favors Achilles and nerfs Anakin, he will still lose. Hard.[/B]

Everybody here has disagreed with your arguments by now. This could be a reason to reconsider your points, instead of attempting to hand them in again and again.

🙄 [/B]

You bastards ignored a post about a potentially "objective" way to go about measuring the two characters against each other.

So this more than shows that you guys are more interested in posturing and boasting than actually KNOWING which side would have superior feats. Lame, really.

So, I guess this confirms what Robtard said ages ago: this is more about favorites than deciding who actually wins.

What post?

Originally posted by Nephthys
What post?

Originally posted by dadudemon
***READ MY WHOLE DAMN POST!***

I saw that scene, finally, on Youtube.

I need a high resolution movie and I'll calculate the speed of the spear throw.

Eyeball estimate: it was between 150-220 yards and the spearthrow is at about 200-400 km/h.

Blaster bolts range from 60 km/h (some closer quarters scenes like the trash compactor scene or the pre-"Obi Wan vs. GG scene) to 400 km/h via Jango's pistols (Jango was supposed to have some above quality "guns" so it should make sense that his bolts are faster). I believe we agreed on an average of 200 km/h to use in vs.threads (Jaden and I). So, knowing that...and know that Ki-Adi-Mundi was overwhelmed by 4-5 troopers firing at once, it's estimated that two dudes with hand guns (using high-velocity rounds), would be able to overwhelm battle precog from even the best Jedi Masters. (2 dudes firing hand guns at the same time would be equivalent to 6 clone troopers firing at once...due to speed of the "ballastic"...I know bolts are ballastics...but it's the same thing for the comparison).

Is 200-400 km/h > 6 * 200 km/h?

No. Achilles cannot overwhelm Anakin's battle precog with an uber fast spear throw.

Keep in mind that battle precog is NOT farseeing (which I've seen confused in MVF vs. debates many many times).

So, anyway, if someone has an HD video, I am more than willing to do a frame by frame and give an accurate speed/velocity of the spear throw.

We could make it more complex and tie in wind-resistance at STP (seems difficult but it's not: just use Fd = (1/2)*Da*(v^2)*Cd*A) [see below for what these mean]* and then come up with the initial throwing velocity.

We know the mass (masses) of a thrusting spear(s) from bronze age/classical ages. We could use that to compare it to the initial velocity of a javelin throw in the olympics and compare that to peak humans to see how far into superhuman he really is IF both sides agree that we need to go further into this feat from Achilles.

I am not done: we can also do a "strikes per second" count. If each side wants to provide an HD video of each side's FASTEST strikes per second video, I will do a frame by frame on those, too, and come up with who is faster. Some would argue that Achilles not only strikes fast, he strikes smartly...making that comparison nulled. I believe that Anakin does the same...as does every Jedi (no one can argue that Jedi are not awesomely surgical in their strikes). So I think it's a fair comparison...even against an character like Achilles.

*I dislike it when people use jargon so here are the goods:

STP = standard temperature and pressure
Fd= force of drag
A = orthographic projection
Cd = drag coefficient
Da = density of the fluid (in this case, it's the atmosphere of the Earth)
v = velocity of stuff...