Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm still pulling for Achilles based solely on visuals, but there is absolutely no way he's superhuman. Very strong, very skilled, very fast. But not superhuman. He's just the pinnacle of the human condition, but there's nothing super about him.Except his hair, which flows in waves of divinity.
So you're saying Achilles wins because Brad Pitt is way hotter than Hayden Christensen. At least you're honest about your bias, kudos.
Totally. His rippling muscles alone are proof enough.
I favour Achilles because, I guess, of what we don't see from Anakin. The novels and EU tell us the Jedi are super fast (the RotS novel states Mace and Palpatine fight "as blurs" to even Anakin's perception), but we don't see it. I've got nothing against a filmmaker saying "this is what I intend", but for our purposes in this forum, that makes things tough. Fact is, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Grievous, Maul etc., don't move super fast, or with any stated super strength (Grievous excepted). As I said earlier, arguing Star Wars without the EU is kinda lame. The visuals (the choreography, the sword fights etc) are all really cool, flashy, and fast... just not anything special. The actors are limited to their own ranges, and for that, so are the characters.
I'm not sure what this forum allows when it comes to 'intended reality' vs. 'visual reality', but nothing Anakin did in the prequels, strength or speed-wise, is enough to convince me he's a superhuman. At least not enough to overwhelm Achilles and his saber resistant weaponry.
And I'm having trouble buying the film version of precog as an insta-win. We know it exists because Qui-Gon said so, but it's shown to be incredibly faulty, especially in melees. In fact, deflecting blaster bolts seems to be it's one and only use. That and podracing.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And I'm having trouble buying the film version of precog as an insta-win. We know it exists because Qui-Gon said so, but it's shown to be incredibly faulty, especially in melees. In fact, deflecting blaster bolts seems to be it's one and only use. That and podracing.
Against other Force-User with Battle-Precog, which is important. If we saw non-Force sensitive types defeating Jedi in melee duels left and right, you'd have a point.
Grevious is the one exception, but he's he a four-armed cyborg specially trained to fight against Jedi.
Originally posted by RobtardI know, but then what do they look when they're fighting non-Force users, such as Achilles? I like to try to avoid making arguments based on what I imagine to be fact. If I started doing that I'd have to add '112' to the end of my name.
Against other Force-User with Battle-Precog, which is important. If we saw non-Force sensitive types defeating Jedi in melee duels left and right, you'd have a point.Grevious is the one exception, but he's he a four-armed cyborg specially trained to fight against Jedi.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know, but then what do they look when they're fighting non-Force users, such as Achilles? I like to try to avoid making arguments based on what I imagine to be fact.If I started doing that I'd have to add '112' to the end of my name.
If they didn't have the many feats of blocking blaster-fire more times than not blocking it, I'd agree with you. But it's there, the Battle-Precog; while not infallible, it's a serious advantage over someone who doesn't have it; especially in a 1v1 fight.
Haha, good one.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I guess. Though I feel obliged to bring up Jedi Master and Council member, Cole "The Man" Trebor. Pew pew, gotcha.F*cking prequels.
As noted, it's not infallible and he blocked how many shots before he was killed?
We also see Jango try the same exact maneuver on Mace a short time later; but it completely fails. Seems Battle-Precog scales with a Jedi's skill/mastery of the Force.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am citing examples of precog failing. You failing to acknowledge this is why I don't take it easy on you.
You fail to understand the why here, which turns your "argument" into a nonsensical rant devoid of reason. It is clearly established within the movies, that to defeat a Jedi in combat, you either need a huge amount of firepower or the help of the force. None of that is available to Achilles, hence he goes down.
Anakin isn't faster than Achilles and doesn't possess anywhere near the skill of Achilles. Overloading it ? Obi told him not to do something and he did so anyways. That's not overloading it yet he was defeated all the same. Dooku's force lightning didn't overload it either. Anakin is stupid in combat.
Stop boring me with your lack of knowledge. If you would be so kind to take a look at the scene at the beginning of "The Phantom Menace", in which Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run away from the Droidekas, you could see, that they sprint down the rather long corridor in split seconds. I don't see Achilles coming close to moving that fast.
In terms of skill - I agree with you. Anakin does have less practice with his weapon than Achilles has. Yet, due to the fact, that it's practically weightless, he has the advantage of being capable of wielding it around far faster than Achilles can do with his sword. Not mentioning the advantages of precognition (which he did possess even as 9 year old child) and his - partly artificial - strength.
For one blaster fire doesn't seem all that fast. Achilles storming the beach is far more impressive than either of these instances. Achilles can decimate his foes while being attacked by ranged weapons and do so with ease. So far a force lightning blast beat him and Anakin used an attack Obi even told him would fail. LOL.
As I said: Context is important and you're ignoring it completely. By your logic, Achilles was simple shot with an arrow - because we can ignore how he was totally not focussed on what was going on around him. Does that make sense to you?
Yoda did decimate his foes, while being attacked with semi automatic range weapons from eight different persons. What Achilles did totally pales in comparison.
Since when was he attacked by 40 blaster bolts at the same time ? You are just making things up now.
40 blaster bolts in about 4 seconds. Please read. And it happens, when Obi-Wan and Yoda fight their way into the Jedi Temple. You can count them for yourself:
Here's you again trying to say nuh uh this doesn't count. Anakin had a headache and needed to poop so he wasn't at his best. Spare me the fanboy routine I cite actual evidence while you throw adjectives and baseless claims around. Achilles is far more skilled and was easily dodging Hector's attacks.
And how skilled was Hector exactly? This kind of "debate" is rather boring. If you aren't capable of understanding movies, get out of the movie versus forum.
You threw an exaggerated number and ignored the fact he had some of the greatest jedi present and on his side against the fodder.
I would advise you to go and count the number of opponents in both instances. You should pay special attention to the background action in the battle scenes in "Attack of the Clones" in the arena, because what you will see, is single Jedi taking on 10 or more opponents at the same time.
We've seen humans kill them easily and them fail to block blaster fire after order 66 was ordered. Watch the movies, guy. That's how they wipe out the entire jedi order. Most of them don't even see it coming yet precog. 😂 😂 😂
What was it you didn't understand about the concept of precognition and superior firepower? They were betrayed by an army of Clones, that should have been absolutely loyal to them. Imagine this: Your "Jedi senses" (aka precognition) warn you, that you will get stabbed by your best friend in a second. Naturally, you would doubt that - and get stabbed. This is what happened to the Jedi, and it won't happen when an attack is expected already.
Likewise, almost all Jedi kills were performed by superior firepower. We see Anakin leading and entire legion of Clone Troopers into the Jedi Temple. We see a single Padawan taking it up with several Clone Troopers. We see, that the Jedi that are gunned down during Order 66, usually get shot by 6 or more Clones from close range with semi automatic weapons.
I still don't see Achilles coming up with sufficient abilities to beat Jedi precognition or their force enhanced speed / strength.
Originally posted by RobtardDid you watch the movie ? Honestly. If you think any human alive or that has ever lived is capable of this then you've done lost your mind.
What you're saying doesn't equate to super-strength or anything super-human. Just a skilled fighter. Stop being a clown.
Originally posted by RobtardIt all was impressive and my point has always been about the relative ease in which he accomplished this while his focus was also elsewhere.
So now that your "he blocked spears" fell flat, you're shifting to the shield, which I pointed out was the one impressive thing. Clown.It is when it's coming from hundreds of foes and from many angles at once. battle of Genosis, Jedi where seen successfully doing this more times than failing.
No, you're being a clown, downplaying, making shit up and then shifting, it's all you have.
If you didn't pick up on it in the film, Achilles bleeds arrogance, he's completely full of himself. But that's neither here nor there. Achilles is clearly outmatched.
Achilles has skill, he's not getting pasted and/or everwhelming Vader's Battle-Precog though.
Blocking it isn't as impressive as fighting off opponents while casually blocking it as well. You gotta start looking at the complete picture here, hoss.
The issue isn't arrogance at all the issue is arrogance which costs Anakin. Achilles doesn't lose or have a crippling weakness due to arrogance such as Anakin. Big diff.
Originally posted by NephthysWe don't see enough of the video and he's clearly more skilled than she is anyways. Someone like Obi he should just cut through like butter and it's even stated he's his superior by Obi himself yet he finds a way to lose.
O RLY?At 0.43 you can see Anakin fighting off the lightsaber instructor of the Jedi Order (basically one of the most skilled Jedi with a lightsaber) while throttling another Jedi.
What were you talking about Anakin not making skilled opponents look like schlubs?
So..... you admit that you were wrong? Gooooooooood.
No it doesn't. You've been told this multiple times already Quan, deflecting a spear is not superhuman.
Meh, its nothing Anakin couldn't do with the feats that we've provided. His strength and accuracy is beyond Achilles'. Heres another one I forgot.
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At 4.48 Anakin leaps onto Padmes bed and cuts two freaking caterpillers in half that are on top of her without touching her with his blade. Could Achilles have done something that precise and accurate that quickly? I think not.
Teaming up? Obi-Wan blocks [b]both
Magnaguards at the same time at the start of the fight. Thats much more impressive that deflecting a bloody spear.We're not talking about him killing politicians. We're talkinh about him blocking a blaster shot completely blind with ease. Something that Achilles has never done.
Borb is probably the smartest person I know. So I do think so.
The spear thing is not an example of superstrength. The spear toss I'll give you. But Anakins own feats of superstrength stand as well. So its not like Achilles is going to overpower him. [/B]
That along with throwing a spear is superhuman. Humans can't casually do so like he did in the movie Troy.
I think it's accurate yes I could see Achilles doing so as well. Next.
Deflecting a bloody spear isn't the entire impressive feat it's what else he did while fighting his opponents all while making it look like it was nothing.
Achilles can block arrows with his shield while not even focusing on the archer while being attacked head on.
If you think using as many adjectives which have little to nothing to do with an actual point I can't see why else you'd be impressed.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You fail to understand the why here, which turns your "argument" into a nonsensical rant devoid of reason. It is clearly established within the movies, that to defeat a Jedi in combat, you either need a huge amount of firepower or the help of the force. None of that is available to Achilles, hence he goes down.
So you're saying without the force or a huge amount of firepower no amount of skill can ever defeat a jedi and sith in combat ? You're worse than I thought. I have cited examples and you have ignored them.
This isn't a sprint and we've seen Jango Fett pose a huge problem for Obi. Fett isn't some uber force wielding precog sporting son of a gun he's just a highly skilled bounty hunter, guy. Now while Qui Gonn would beat him in a race that doesn't mean he spanks his ass into the dirt in combat. I guess Usain Bolt is tougher than Pacquiao.
Stop boring me with your lack of knowledge. If you would be so kind to take a look at the scene at the beginning of "The Phantom Menace", in which Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run away from the Droidekas, you could see, that they sprint down the rather long corridor in split seconds. I don't see Achilles coming close to moving that fast. [/B]
Achilles doesn't seem at a disadvantage at all despite his weapon weighing more than Vader's here. Precog didn't help him against Obi or Dooku. His arrogance blinds him. He believes in himself to the point of being delusional.
In terms of skill - I agree with you. Anakin does have less practice with his weapon than Achilles has. Yet, due to the fact, that it's practically weightless, he has the advantage of being capable of wielding it around far faster than Achilles can do with his sword. Not mentioning the advantages of precognition (which he did possess even as 9 year old child) and his - partly artificial - strength.[/B]
Yes, Yoda has went through random foes like they were ants but then again so has Achilles. Then again Yoda isn't Anakin either. Then again Yoda with his vaunted precog couldn't see an attack from Palpatine coming. He wasn't overwhelmed and what Palpatine's intentwas in the scene was obvious to even an idiot.
As I said: Context is important and you're ignoring it completely. By your logic, Achilles was simple shot with an arrow - because we can ignore how he was totally not focussed on what was going on around him. Does that make sense to you?Yoda did decimate his foes, while being attacked with semi automatic range weapons from eight different persons. What Achilles did totally pales in comparison.[/B]
Two highly skilled jedi here not one. That changes everything.
40 blaster bolts in about 4 seconds. Please read. And it happens, when Obi-Wan and Yoda fight their way into the Jedi Temple. You can count them for yourself:YouTube video[/B]
Skilled enough to dominate his cousin and to show himself far superior to the giant wielding the hammer in combat. far better of a fighter than the guy who Achilles defeated with one jump stab.
And how skilled was Hector exactly? This kind of "debate" is rather boring. If you aren't capable of understanding movies, get out of the movie versus forum.
[/B]
10 or more opponents per jedi should be an easy victory to someone of their skill level considering the clones are mere fodder.
I would advise you to go and count the number of opponents in both instances. You should pay special attention to the background action in the battle scenes in "Attack of the Clones" in the arena, because what you will see, is single Jedi taking on 10 or more opponents at the same time. [/B]
Not at all. If your a jedi you trust your precog. You've been aware of it for years and know it well. In some instances we see jedi deflect blaster fire and easily falter. In other instances we see jedi completely taken by surprise. All in all precog isn't as ironclad as you'd like it to be and the movies make it plain as day.
What was it you didn't understand about the concept of precognition and superior firepower? They were betrayed by an army of Clones, that should have been absolutely loyal to them. Imagine this: Your "Jedi senses" (aka precognition) warn you, that you will get stabbed by your best friend in a second. Naturally, you would doubt that - and get stabbed. This is what happened to the Jedi, and it won't happen when an attack is expected already.[/B]
But some jedi aren't even aware of what's occurring until they are shot. With the clones you need massive numbers because they are clearly outclassed by the jedi.
Likewise, almost all Jedi kills were performed by superior firepower. We see Anakin leading and entire legion of Clone Troopers into the Jedi Temple. We see a single Padawan taking it up with several Clone Troopers. We see, that the Jedi that are gunned down during Order 66, usually get shot by 6 or more Clones from close range with semi automatic weapons.I still don't see Achilles coming up with sufficient abilities to beat Jedi precognition or their force enhanced speed / strength. [/B]
Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you watch the movie ? Honestly. If you think any human alive or that has ever lived is capable of this then you've done lost your mind.It all was impressive and my point has always been about the relative ease in which he accomplished this while his focus was also elsewhere.
Blocking it isn't as impressive as fighting off opponents while casually blocking it as well. You gotta start looking at the complete picture here, hoss.
The issue isn't arrogance at all the issue is arrogance which costs Anakin. Achilles doesn't lose or have a crippling weakness due to arrogance such as Anakin. Big diff.
Non sequitur response yet again, good job. We're talking about Achilles supposed(by you) super-strength; being a skilled spear-thrower and blocking a spear thrust doesn't eqaute to super-human strength. Clown.
Again, nothing to do with super-human strength, which is what you were jabbering about.
repeat: Again, nothing to do with super-human strength, which is what you were jabbering about.
And who did Vader lose to? Another guy who would wipe his ass with Achilles. So Vader's arrogance is irrelevant here, the fight will be over in seconds with Achilles' head rolling on the floor.
Originally posted by RobtardThat along with his other feats suggest super strength, hoss.
Non sequitur response yet again, good job. We're talking about Achilles supposed(by you) super-strength; being a skilled spear-thrower and blocking a spear thrust doesn't eqaute to super-human strength. Clown.Again, nothing to do with super-human strength, which is what you were jabbering about.
repeat: Again, nothing to do with super-human strength, which is what you were jabbering about.
And who did Vader lose to? Another guy who would wipe his ass with Achilles. So Vader's arrogance is irrelevant here, the fight will be over in seconds with Achilles' head rolling on the floor.
That has to do with a super battle awareness.
Are you saying he doesn't have superhuman strength ?
You making baseless claims again. It's what you do best. Achilles kills this overrated sith lord.
Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't see enough of the video and he's clearly more skilled than she is anyways. Someone like Obi he should just cut through like butter and it's even stated he's his superior by Obi himself yet he finds a way to lose.That along with throwing a spear is superhuman. Humans can't casually do so like he did in the movie Troy.
I think it's accurate yes I could see Achilles doing so as well. Next.
Deflecting a bloody spear isn't the entire impressive feat it's what else he did while fighting his opponents all while making it look like it was nothing.
Achilles can block arrows with his shield while not even focusing on the archer while being attacked head on.
If you think using as many adjectives which have little to nothing to do with an actual point I can't see why else you'd be impressed.
You asked for him treating elite fighters like Schulbs, and thats what it shows. He loses to Obi-Wan because he's basically going insane at that point and as the movies show Jedi's emotions heavily affect their abilities.
Throwing the spear could be seen as being slightly superhuman. So? He isn't overpowering Anakin just like Grievous, who is much stronger than Achilles couldn't overpower Obi-Wan. But deflecting the spear was not even slightly superhuman. 😐
Well you would be lying. Did you factor in that its night and Achilles would barely be able to see? I doubt it seeing as you are a massive fanboy who has actually admitted to arguing your favourite characters win even if they really dont due to bias. 'If your a real fan you'd never give up arguing for your fav characters, ever!'
That makes him highly skilled, it doesn't make him superhuman. Plus, you were never arguing it was everything else he did. You were arguing 'It being a spear shows how incredibly strong he is to casually dismiss a spear as opposed to an arrow.' That deflecting a spear shows superstrength. Which it does not.
As already explained to you theres no way he purposfully blocked that arrow. Continuing to assert that he did will get you nowhere with me.
I think casually kicking your ass while using a second language is pretty impressive yes. Though really its his detailed and eloquent logic that impresses me.