Borbarad
Advocatus Diaboli
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you're saying without the force or a huge amount of firepower no amount of skill can ever defeat a jedi and sith in combat ? You're worse than I thought. I have cited examples and you have ignored them.
What examples have you sited exactly? Order 66? Obvious application of superior firepower against the Jedi falling victim to it? All duels present in the movie? Examples of force users fighting force users. Where is your point?
This isn't a sprint and we've seen Jango Fett pose a huge problem for Obi. Fett isn't some uber force wielding precog sporting son of a gun he's just a highly skilled bounty hunter, guy. Now while Qui Gonn would beat him in a race that doesn't mean he spanks his ass into the dirt in combat. I guess Usain Bolt is tougher than Pacquiao.
Again: Simplification of context doesn't get you anywhere. Jango didn't face Obi-Wan in a duel. He had the advantage of a jet pack and, in addition, fire support coming from his son, who attempted to kill Obi-Wan shooting at him with Jangos spaceship. This is another clear incidence of superior firepower used against a Jedi – and it still didn't work. When denied the support from a jet pack and massive firepower against a Jedi, Jango ended up with a missing head against Mace Windu on Geonosis.
Achilles doesn't seem at a disadvantage at all despite his weapon weighing more than Vader's here. Precog didn't help him against Obi or Dooku. His arrogance blinds him. He believes in himself to the point of being delusional.
Again funny, how you're not only ignoring the status of Obi-Wan and Dooku as force users, but also try to introduce the lack of control exhibited by "Attack of the Clones" Vader into this setup, when it's clearly the RotS version of the character being used here, who – even when under clear emotional pressure at the final duel – did show us far more self control than his younger self. Then, you apparently manage to overlook the fact, that Skywalker survived three years of a frontline service in a galactic war. I suppose that "being arrogant to the point of being delusional" doesn't help people surviving in such situations. This demonstrates that this behaviour was rather an exception than the rule, which is also implied in the context of the movie – which you do ignore entirely.
Yes, Yoda has went through random foes like they were ants but then again so has Achilles. Then again Yoda isn't Anakin either. Then again Yoda with his vaunted precog couldn't see an attack from Palpatine coming. He wasn't overwhelmed and what Palpatine's intentwas in the scene was obvious to even an idiot.Two highly skilled jedi here not one. That changes everything.
Your inability to understand and answer my argument is a pity. The point was not, that Yoda trashes multiple opponents, but his demonstration of precognition and speed in that specific scene, when he deflects the sustained blaster fire from different directions. People like Anakin or Obi-Wan, while ultimately inferior to Yoda, aren't leagues below him in that specific field of expertise, totally shitting on anything you made up for Achilles.
Skilled enough to dominate his cousin and to show himself far superior to the giant wielding the hammer in combat. far better of a fighter than the guy who Achilles defeated with one jump stab.
And how good were his cousin and the giant? You simply throw in unknown forces into the discussion and attempt to make them look impressive. Sure. Those might be some of the greatest fighters (and in terms of Hector and Achilles the greatest of their respective forces). But if you want to reduce the debate to this, you may want to recognize the fact, that the Jedi as a whole are regarded as legendary combatants through-out the Galaxy and that Anakin is one of the best fighters in the order. I'd say that beats the attribute "best of Greece" or "best of Troy" at any given day.
10 or more opponents per jedi should be an easy victory to someone of their skill level considering the clones are mere fodder.
Did we already arrive at the downplaying department again? Fun ensues. So, I suppose, if 10 opponents are "easy victory" for the Jedi, because their opponents (droids in this case) are "fodder", then Achilles storming the beach was also an "easy victory", because his opponents were nothing but "fodder". Correct? Or do you want to introduce your regular double-standard here, and presume that, while Achilles victory was impressive, a even worse odd situation for the Jedi is nothing special? In this case, I may point to the fact that beating more "against the odds" scenarios could be scene as a demonstration of greater skill.
Not at all. If your a jedi you trust your precog. You've been aware of it for years and know it well. In some instances we see jedi deflect blaster fire and easily falter. In other instances we see jedi completely taken by surprise. All in all precog isn't as ironclad as you'd like it to be and the movies make it plain as day.
My bad.
Firstly: If some sort of information contradicts everything you've experienced so far, you won't automatically trust it, even if you consider the source of the information valid in general. If you don't believe in Aliens and then your government acknowledges the existance of extraterrestial life, you won't be all "Okay. I was wrong. Moving on." but more like "That's pretty much unbelieveable". That's regular human behaviour.
In the situation of the Jedi, they were confronted with the experience of an absolutely loyal army, with soldiers even throwing their lifes away, if commanded to do so – and the contradictionary precog information, that those same soldiers will attack their commanders. We do, in all instances, see the Jedi realizing that something is wrong before the Clones attack. However: All those examples don't matter, because we're dealing with a situation, in which Anakin, as a Jedi, would be confronted with one opponent and expect attacks from this opponents. So you may explain to me, how the examples you presented are applicable to the situation we have in this virtual setup, because I don't see any relation.
But some jedi aren't even aware of what's occurring until they are shot. With the clones you need massive numbers because they are clearly outclassed by the jedi.
Most of them show a reaction to the Clones, Yoda even decapitates the Clones trying to murder him. Why? Because, he does obviously trust the Force more than the other Jedi, who doubt their precognition. Also, some Jedi are "out of combat" situations, and precog isn't active "automatically". That fact is established pretty much in the opening scenes in TPM, when Kenobi makes a reference to future events, and Qui-Gon tells him, he should focus on the present moment. So obviously, there is some focus required for accurate precognition, which is present in a fight, but not necessarily present in other situations.