Originally posted by quanchi112
How do you know the spears aren't thrown at him ?
I do possess eyes and am capable of using them, unlike Mr. "Achilles does deflect arrows with his sword" Quanchi. I'm also capable of using logic, which leads to the position, that I don't see anybody throwing a spear into an infight that involves one of his fellow soldiers. Adding those two points together, alongside the fact that one of the soldiers Achilles cuts down holds one of the spears in his hands is testament to them not being thrown. Can you follow?
This along with the spear tossing feats shows him to have super strength. You can claim otherwise but the movie made it pretty clear.
Right. Apparently, you're lack of visual perception and logic strikes once again.
Now please watch how long the soldiers of Troy need to reach the temple, from the position where Achilles hit with the spear. I see 10 seconds of movement occuring. A horse carrying a rider in fast gallop can reach speed around 30 kph, yet what we see, does rather look like a slow gallop or a fast trot (~20 kph).
Based on that visual evidence, we can perform some math now. Assuming a clearly not present fast gallop, the riders would cross a distance of 8,3 meters per second, which would mean, that Achilles did hit a target 80-85 meters away. With the - more realistic - assumption, that they did move with around 20 kph, this would result in a way of 55-60 meters being crossed in the 10 second time frame. In both situations the sheer distance the spear was thrown is far below the world record reached in javelin throw (around 100 meters).
To reach your supposed "superhuman" status, Achilles would need to throw his spear well over that mark. But assuming he did, would also affect the observed speed of the horses. For example: Assuming Achilles did throw the spear over a distance of 125 meters (which still wouldn't be superhuman), the horses would have needed to move with an average speed of 45 kph, 150 % of usual gallop speed. For 150 meters (clearly above human ability), the horses would need to travel over the distance which an average speed of 54 kph, almost twice the average speed of a fast gallop. Obviously, such claims are contradicting the visual evidence and hence you are wrong. Achilles does never exhibit anything that marks him as superhuman. End of story.
The difference is simple the travel of speed isn't as great going from a spear tossed in the world of troy to an arrow as opposed to a bullet and an arrow.
And again, I'm astonished by your lack of knowledge regarding the issues you're talking about. Let me demonstrate some math here again, as just words aren't enough to show you, that you're damn wrong with almost everything you say:
I want you to have a look at scene #4, in which Legolas shoots one Orc from the warg. This is followed by 12 seconds of movie following, before the riders of Rohan and the Warg riders meet in the middle of the field. Using the estimates from above and - conservatively - assuming that the respective mounts moved in a trot, when they are galloping (20 kph instead of 30 kph), the distance from which Legolas does hit his target is round about 135 meters away from him (more realistically and matching the visual evidence: 200 meters).
His arrow needs less than 2 seconds to cross this distance. This would mean, it moves with a speed of 240 kph (following the minimum estimations from above) to 360 kph (following the more realistical estimations). For comparison: The spear thrown by your supposely superhuman Achilles travels with a speed of 65 to 100 kph. Do you spot a little difference there?
Skill and battle awareness. It isn't called precog because that's a Star Wars only term. He wasn't aware of Paris' arrows until they struck him which is something I would imagine precog would clue him in on. It isn't the same thing.
I love the way you try to hand in red herrings.
The point is, that his supposed "deflecting arrow with shield" feat, happens with an arrow fired at his back, when he hasn't even taken a look into the direction for seconds and (seeing the movement speed of average arrows), that can't have been fired, before Achilles started to move the shield to his back. As conclusion, he either does possess precognition, enabling him to an event that is in the future and that wasn't even foreshadowed to his regular human senses - or he simply was lucky.
Gandalfl was more powerful than Saruman the second time around. Saruman didn't have any magical protections and Gandalf would be affected in the same manner if he had been stabbed in the same manner. The Witch King doesn't have to be killed to be defeated. Being beaten by a hobbit and a woman isn't impressive no matter how you want to sell it. Yes, the Nazgul were defeated by Aragorn you don't have to kill your opponent to defeat them. You are trying to claim winning is only when you kill your opponent which isn't always the case.
I'm slowly fed up with your attempts to talk characters down.
We don't go by lowest showings or by plot induced defeats of characters, but by their highest showings. We don't ignore context. If you want to argue like that, then I will say that Achilles got shot by a coward not even close to Legolas in terms of skill and call it instant win.
Yes, but still blocks the arrow with his reflexes and magic.Yes, but using the bright light doesn't mean all magical attacks are taking place at the same time.
The point is, that Gandalf does attack them in order to disarm them. He does not react as you wanted to sell it to us. He anticipates being shot and has the power to prevent this from happening - unlike Achilles. So unless you want to compare Gandalf to Achilles (and you better refrain from doing so), why do you even bring that scene in?
Achilles is strong enough not to be thrown back. We also see him casually block an arrow as well without his full focus. legolas crushing or hurting mere fodder isn't proof of anything. It's like me saying look at Achilles here easily maul these two fodder guys that's what happens to Legolas. You incorrectly argued all magical attacks were in place in unison which isn't the case at all.
Achilles doesn't have anything to save him from being shot from a rather short distances with an arrow that moves with the speed of a Formula One car, delivered with pinpoint accuracy, by a being who can fire shots like this in rapid succession.
You skew and ignore evidence unlike me.
You repeat previously defeated points ad nauseam and ignore visual evidence while not adhering to logic at all. Cut it off.
Achilles can block arrows while taking on multiple warriors so obviously with his full attention he can do so considering on an entire battlefield he wasn't hit by an arrow in combat mode. Achilles also doesn't die immediately and resists multiple arrows from Paris. He was there to protect the girl and without this along with the first arrow going right into his achilles tendon he'd have killed Paris.
Achilles can not block arrows while taking on multiple warriors, because you entirely made that up and have agreed to having made that up. Are you that dense?
And wow. He doesn't die immediately, from arrows by a lesser archer, not exactly hitting parts of his body that are recognized resulting in an instakill when getting hit. Receving an arrow right through his eye (where Legolas can put them) would do that job. Nailing his legs with arrows while he tries to close into melee would also suffice to win the duel. Your point? As usual: Nonexistant.
You can't name one skilled opponent legolas has ever killed in battle.
And you can't name one opponent as skilled as Legolas that was killed by Achilles. Where is the point? You can't show me Achilles taking on giant war beasts or cave trolls or slaughtering more than 100 opponents in less than 10 minutes of screen time. Does that mean Legolas wins?
This is a lot to jump in on, but I want to point out 2 things.
1. The Uruk-Hai carrying the bomb was a berserker. Berserker humans are usually hell to take down, a berserker Uruk-Hai is assuredly several levels of difficulty above that, and iirc, those shots would have, and did kill Orcs and regular Uruk before and after.
2. Legolas' accuracy was to the point that he was threading the needle at the battle of Helm's Deep. While he was sliding down the stairs, on a shield, in the rain and the dark, he was popping Uruk's in their eyes, throats, and other small areas without shielding...and their eye holes weren't that big.
Originally posted by BorbaradAchilles can deflect spears and block arrows. I have admitted as such very early on upon rewatching the scene. If it wasn't thrown and was wielded why doesn't the soldier press on and attack him from the side ?
I do possess eyes and am capable of using them, unlike Mr. "Achilles does deflect arrows with his sword" Quanchi. I'm also capable of using logic, which leads to the position, that I don't see anybody throwing a spear into an infight that involves one of his fellow soldiers. Adding those two points together, alongside the fact that one of the soldiers Achilles cuts down holds one of the spears in his hands is testament to them not being thrown. Can you follow?
The spear isn't completely the same as the javelin used today and the entire feat is what's impressive. In a javelin toss accuracy is thrown aside for sheer distance unlike Achilles showing complete mastery over his spear with the accuracy to hit a moving target perfectly and with relative ease. That's superhuman. You can pretend iti isn't but I think everyone here knows better.
Right. Apparently, you're lack of visual perception and logic strikes once again.Now please watch how long the soldiers of Troy need to reach the temple, from the position where Achilles hit with the spear. I see 10 seconds of movement occuring. A horse carrying a rider in fast gallop can reach speed around 30 kph, yet what we see, does rather look like a slow gallop or a fast trot (~20 kph).
Based on that visual evidence, we can perform some math now. Assuming a clearly not present fast gallop, the riders would cross a distance of 8,3 meters per second, which would mean, that Achilles did hit a target 80-85 meters away. With the - more realistic - assumption, that they did move with around 20 kph, this would result in a way of 55-60 meters being crossed in the 10 second time frame. In both situations the sheer distance the spear was thrown is far below the world record reached in javelin throw (around 100 meters). [/B]
My previous response addressed this perfectly. In your attempt to downplay the accuracy the general ease in which he accomplished a perfect toss isn't the same thing as Achilles just hurling it as far as he can without giving a rat's ass about accuracy.
To reach your supposed "superhuman" status, Achilles would need to throw his spear well over that mark. But assuming he did, would also affect the observed speed of the horses. For example: Assuming Achilles did throw the spear over a distance of 125 meters (which still wouldn't be superhuman), the horses would have needed to move with an average speed of 45 kph, 150 % of usual gallop speed. For 150 meters (clearly above human ability), the horses would need to travel over the distance which an average speed of 54 kph, almost twice the average speed of a fast gallop. Obviously, such claims are contradicting the visual evidence and hence you are wrong. Achilles does never exhibit anything that marks him as superhuman. End of story.[/B]
Almost doesn't mean equal to. You go on these long tirades and are leaving out key words in my original point. Plus feats aren't always 100 percent accurate. If someone in real life hits 7 three pointers in a game and only misses once that doesn't mean every game in which they attempt 8 three pointers are they going to hit 7 of 8. We have to take into account human error and Legolas has definitely failed and been deflected. You want to isolate certain feats and only look at those while ignoring the rest. No on my watch my german adversary.
And again, I'm astonished by your lack of knowledge regarding the issues you're talking about. Let me demonstrate some math here again, as just words aren't enough to show you, that you're damn wrong with almost everything you say:I want you to have a look at scene #4, in which Legolas shoots one Orc from the warg. This is followed by 12 seconds of movie following, before the riders of Rohan and the Warg riders meet in the middle of the field. Using the estimates from above and - conservatively - assuming that the respective mounts moved in a trot, when they are galloping (20 kph instead of 30 kph), the distance from which Legolas does hit his target is round about 135 meters away from him (more realistically and matching the visual evidence: 200 meters).
[/B]
Again, almost doesn't mean equal to. Cut the tirades a little shorter in duration please you're wasting bandwith.
His arrow needs less than 2 seconds to cross this distance. This would mean, it moves with a speed of 240 kph (following the minimum estimations from above) to 360 kph (following the more realistical estimations). For comparison: The spear thrown by your supposely superhuman Achilles travels with a speed of 65 to 100 kph. Do you spot a little difference there?[/B]
He can't have precog he's not from star wars. He can't predict Paris is going to shoot him in the foot with his attention on the woman but in battle he has incredible awareness of the entire battlefield. You are also ignoring his focus isn't just on the archer but on multiple foes along with the archer thus his focus is divided. Try and cover this fairly and accurately you continue to downplay Achilles.
I love the way you try to hand in red herrings.
The point is, that his supposed "deflecting arrow with shield" feat, happens with an arrow fired at his back, when he hasn't even taken a look into the direction for seconds and (seeing the movement speed of average arrows), that can't have been fired, before Achilles started to move the shield to his back. As conclusion, he either does possess precognition, enabling him to an event that is in the future and that wasn't even foreshadowed to his regular human senses - or he simply was lucky.[/B]
We take into account their entire body of work. You also don't ignore failings or the times in which their attacks were blocked. Legolas clearly failed in killing the Uruk Hai in the time needed to prevent entry into Helms Deep. Legolas clearly kills down fodder in massive amounts just like Gimli. Achilles is highly skilled unlike 100 percent of Legolas' kills.I'm slowly fed up with your attempts to talk characters down.
We don't go by lowest showings or by plot induced defeats of characters, but by their highest showings. We don't ignore context. If you want to argue like that, then I will say that Achilles got shot by a coward not even close to Legolas in terms of skill and call it instant win.
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Gandalf reacts in time to prevent being shot if he reacted prior to Aragorn's sword would have burned prior to their attack. That's why I bring it up.
The point is, that Gandalf does attack them in order to disarm them. He does not react as you wanted to sell it to us. He anticipates being shot and has the power to prevent this from happening - unlike Achilles. So unless you want to compare Gandalf to Achilles (and you better refrain from doing so), why do you even bring that scene in?Achilles doesn't have anything to save him from being shot from a rather short distances with an arrow that moves with the speed of a Formula One car, delivered with pinpoint accuracy, by a being who can fire shots like this in rapid succession.[/B]
Legolas hasn't killed one foe of exceptional skill anywhere near Achilles' abilities. Achilles has block an arrow with his focus divided. Legolas has failed in killing an unprotected foe charging in a straight line so yes the guy isn't a machine.
You ignore showings I don't. /thread
You repeat previously defeated points ad nauseam and ignore visual evidence while not adhering to logic at all. Cut it off.[/B]
Warriors are in front of him and yes he can do so as evidenced by the video. He has to be aware of what the warriors are going to do while being aware of the arrow coming for his back all the while. Legoals doesn't always put an arrow right through someone's eye you using this is the basis for every arrow attack is ridiculous. Legolas has failed in killing a foe and against unskilled opponents has been dead accurate. Key word being unskilled. Your stance I ignore everything and pretend every arrow shot can pierce any eye he deems fit. Not even close to being realistic or something we see fromt he character on average.
Achilles can not block arrows while taking on multiple warriors, because you entirely made that up and have agreed to having made that up. Are you that dense?And wow. He doesn't die immediately, from arrows by a lesser archer, not exactly hitting parts of his body that are recognized resulting in an instakill when getting hit. Receving an arrow right through his eye (where Legolas can put them) would do that job. Nailing his legs with arrows while he tries to close into melee would also suffice to win the duel. Your point? As usual: Nonexistant.[/B]
You piss and moan when I repeat myself because you still don't get it. Legolas hasn't killed anyone skilled, Achilles has. Achilles destroyed Hector. Achilles showed himself well above his cousin. Achilles destroyed a country's greatest warrior with one sword jump attack. Legoals' long ranged weapon is better suited in certain situations than a warrior with a sword and shield but this is abc logic and has nothing to do with HOW THESE CHARACTERS MATCH UP. That's the issue.
And you can't name one opponent as skilled as Legolas that was killed by Achilles. Where is the point? You can't show me Achilles taking on giant war beasts or cave trolls or slaughtering more than 100 opponents in less than 10 minutes of screen time. Does that mean Legolas wins? [/B]
Originally posted by KingD19
This is a lot to jump in on, but I want to point out 2 things.1. The Uruk-Hai carrying the bomb was a berserker. Berserker humans are usually hell to take down, a berserker Uruk-Hai is assuredly several levels of difficulty above that, and iirc, those shots would have, and did kill Orcs and regular Uruk before and after.
2. Legolas' accuracy was to the point that he was threading the needle at the battle of Helm's Deep. While he was sliding down the stairs, on a shield, in the rain and the dark, he was popping Uruk's in their eyes, throats, and other small areas without shielding...and their eye holes weren't that big.
👆
Originally posted by quanchi112
You ignore showings I don't. /thread
haermm
Quan, no-one will think less of you if you just admit defeat. Seriously.
Originally posted by NephthysI take into consideration their entire body of work, who they did it too, and then think about it realistically. He wants to take a few high feats ignore the rest and say screw Achilles' skill and pretend he gets arrowed in the eyeball. He knows I have bested him.
👆haermm
Quan, no-one will think less of you if you just admit defeat. Seriously.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Achilles can deflect spears and block arrows. I have admitted as such very early on upon rewatching the scene. If it wasn't thrown and was wielded why doesn't the soldier press on and attack him from the side ?
I accept your concession.
As a reward, you get a free lesson in ancient Greek warfare to fill the gaps of knowledge necessary to understand what you're looking at: Phalanx.
The spear isn't completely the same as the javelin used today and the entire feat is what's impressive. In a javelin toss accuracy is thrown aside for sheer distance unlike Achilles showing complete mastery over his spear with the accuracy to hit a moving target perfectly and with relative ease. That's superhuman. You can pretend iti isn't but I think everyone here knows better.
My previous response addressed this perfectly. In your attempt to downplay the accuracy the general ease in which he accomplished a perfect toss isn't the same thing as Achilles just hurling it as far as he can without giving a rat's ass about accuracy.
Great. So now he does exhibit accuracy rather than superhuman strength? I, once again, accept your concession. Accuracy can be archived with enough training, even to this point - he clearly sacrifices range in order to archive this - much like your usual human would do.
Almost doesn't mean equal to. You go on these long tirades and are leaving out key words in my original point. Plus feats aren't always 100 percent accurate. If someone in real life hits 7 three pointers in a game and only misses once that doesn't mean every game in which they attempt 8 three pointers are they going to hit 7 of 8. We have to take into account human error and Legolas has definitely failed and been deflected. You want to isolate certain feats and only look at those while ignoring the rest. No on my watch my german adversary.
You mean I shouldn't behave like you do in order to talk down characters? I've seen Legolas missing on two occassions. Once against Gandalf, a being using magic, and once against the Orc carrying the explosive at helms deep. Oh. Wait. He did actualy hit the Orc but didn't manage to kill it, which is kind of hard considering the distance and situation.
So he missed with one arrow that was deflected by magic. Is that your "reasonable argument" for Achilles being able to somehow deflect multiple arrows from Legolas, coming at the speed I've shown from a rather close distance? You may want to find a better argument. Otherwise: I will accept another concession.
Again, almost doesn't mean equal to. Cut the tirades a little shorter in duration please you're wasting bandwith.
I don't know what kind of dictionary your using but "almost as fast" doesn't describe "twice or thrice as fast" in mine. I accept another concession, even though you try to gloss over your defeat.
He can't have precog he's not from star wars. He can't predict Paris is going to shoot him in the foot with his attention on the woman but in battle he has incredible awareness of the entire battlefield. You are also ignoring his focus isn't just on the archer but on multiple foes along with the archer thus his focus is divided. Try and cover this fairly and accurately you continue to downplay Achilles.
Right. He can't have precognition (which isn't exclusive to Star Wars) and this means he was just lucky. I accept your concession.
We take into account their entire body of work. You also don't ignore failings or the times in which their attacks were blocked. Legolas clearly failed in killing the Uruk Hai in the time needed to prevent entry into Helms Deep. Legolas clearly kills down fodder in massive amounts just like Gimli. Achilles is highly skilled unlike 100 percent of Legolas' kills.
If we take into account their entire body of work - not just their "lowest" showings, I'd would like you to watch the Legolas movie I posted, and accept, that Achilles would stand no chance versus the troll and much less the Mumakill. Then, I accept your concession, because Achilles would totally be screwed.
Gandalf reacts in time to prevent being shot if he reacted prior to Aragorn's sword would have burned prior to their attack. That's why I bring it up.
Gandalf reacts with magic. An option that Achilles doesn't have. The options that Achilles does have aren't sufficient to avoid being hit by Legolas.
Legolas hasn't killed one foe of exceptional skill anywhere near Achilles' abilities. Achilles has block an arrow with his focus divided. Legolas has failed in killing an unprotected foe charging in a straight line so yes the guy isn't a machine.
Legolas killed a tower sized war beast and it's entire crew. Anything close to that on Achilles list of feats? No? Thanks. And stop trying to make up feats for Achilles - it's getting boring. Also stop the downtalking. Look at the distance between Achilles and his target, acknowledge the fact, that he had to try and shoot the target through the surrounding bystanders and accept that he did still hit his enemy in this scene, despite of that circumstances.
You ignore showings I don't. /thread
You ignore every single demonstration of skill from Legolas, talk him down based on losing against a prepared magician and not killing a target that was almost impossible to hit. This while making up feats for Achilles. /thread
Warriors are in front of him and yes he can do so as evidenced by the video. He has to be aware of what the warriors are going to do while being aware of the arrow coming for his back all the while. Legoals doesn't always put an arrow right through someone's eye you using this is the basis for every arrow attack is ridiculous. Legolas has failed in killing a foe and against unskilled opponents has been dead accurate. Key word being unskilled. Your stance I ignore everything and pretend every arrow shot can pierce any eye he deems fit. Not even close to being realistic or something we see fromt he character on average.
All answered and debunked already. You're reaching. I accept your inferiority, my child. Moving on.
You piss and moan when I repeat myself because you still don't get it. Legolas hasn't killed anyone skilled, Achilles has. Achilles destroyed Hector. Achilles showed himself well above his cousin. Achilles destroyed a country's greatest warrior with one sword jump attack. Legoals' long ranged weapon is better suited in certain situations than a warrior with a sword and shield but this is abc logic and has nothing to do with HOW THESE CHARACTERS MATCH UP. That's the issue.
Achilles did never face anyone close to Legolas in terms of ability - which is a fact you don't get. Logic has nothing to do with your side of the argument - the entire forum did already notice that. So I will chalk up any further comment from you as an attempt to keep face in front of your non-existant online friends and amuse myself by holding you up to ridicule as long as I see it fit. You can avoid that by stopping to post. Have a nice life.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I take into consideration their entire body of work, who they did it too, and then think about it realistically. He wants to take a few high feats ignore the rest and say screw Achilles' skill and pretend he gets arrowed in the eyeball. He knows I have bested him.
I seriously LOL'ed at this.
Originally posted by quanchi112😬
I take into consideration their entire body of work, who they did it too, and then think about it realistically. He wants to take a few high feats ignore the rest and say screw Achilles' skill and pretend he gets arrowed in the eyeball. He knows I have bested him.
You lost pages ago, and you're the only one who can't accept it.
Originally posted by BorbaradYou can continue to play the role of a funny man but it isn't winning you any debates.
I accept your concession.
As a reward, you get a free lesson in ancient Greek warfare to fill the gaps of knowledge necessary to understand what you're looking at: Phalanx.
The distance along with the target moving and the strength required to do so shows this feat to be superhuman. You can pretend a normal guy can toss spears and always hit their targets like Achilles does in Troy but I still know you really can't believe that.
Great. So now he does exhibit accuracy rather than superhuman strength? I, once again, accept your concession. Accuracy can be archived with enough training, even to this point - he clearly sacrifices range in order to archive this - much like your usual human would do. [/B]
So you admit Gandalf can block his attacks or that his attacks aren't always fatal aka he failed big time in bringing down a Uruk Hai. All he had to do was shoot him in the eyeball and according to you it's automatic maybe he just was kidding around. If Legolas isn't clutch why argue he's clutch here. You say the situation being so overwhelming or implying as such when his target is just running in a straight line doesn't instill in him a great confidence.
You mean I shouldn't behave like you do in order to talk down characters? I've seen Legolas missing on two occassions. Once against Gandalf, a being using magic, and once against the Orc carrying the explosive at helms deep. Oh. Wait. He did actualy hit the Orc but didn't manage to kill it, which is kind of hard considering the distance and situation.So he missed with one arrow that was deflected by magic. Is that your "reasonable argument" for Achilles being able to somehow deflect multiple arrows from Legolas, coming at the speed I've shown from a rather close distance? You may want to find a better argument. Otherwise: I will accept another concession. [/B]
Achilles is using his complete focus. We've seen what he can do with partial focus and we've seen Legolas fail and his arrow blocked. it doesn't take a german genius to connect the dots. Wait are you saying you're not the smartest man in germany like neph previously claimed ?
Quit mincing words almost isn't equal to. End of story.
I don't know what kind of dictionary your using but "almost as fast" doesn't describe "twice or thrice as fast" in mine. I accept another concession, even though you try to gloss over your defeat. [/B]
He can have enhanced battle awareness just like in comics characters can have cosmic awareness. You acting like this idea is mutually exclusive to star wars alone is a treat alright.
Right. He can't have precognition (which isn't exclusive to Star Wars) and this means he was just lucky. I accept your concession. [/B]
based on what would he stand no chance ? He'd easily kill that troll while dancing around it's clumsy attacks. he wouldn't need an entire group to do so. If you threw Legolas into a duel with Hector with a sword he'd lose as well.
If we take into account their entire body of work - not just their "lowest" showings, I'd would like you to watch the Legolas movie I posted, and accept, that Achilles would stand no chance versus the troll and much less the Mumakill. Then, I accept your concession, because Achilles would totally be screwed. [/B]
Gandalf has to be quick enough to react. We've seen Saruman get stabbed to death so yes he needs to react beforehand.
Gandalf reacts with magic. An option that Achilles doesn't have. The options that Achilles does have aren't sufficient to avoid being hit by Legolas. [/B]
Storming the beach is easily better than Legolas' feat there. Achilles overtook an entire battle not just used a ranged weapon to take out mere fodder amidst a giant beast.
Legolas killed a tower sized war beast and it's entire crew. Anything close to that on Achilles list of feats? No? Thanks. And stop trying to make up feats for Achilles - it's getting boring. Also stop the downtalking. Look at the distance between Achilles and his target, acknowledge the fact, that he had to try and shoot the target through the surrounding bystanders and accept that he did still hit his enemy in this scene, despite of that circumstances. [/B]
No, I said he's very accurate against brutish unskilled warriors but not as effective against Gandalf or as clutch against the Uruk Hai when it was the fourth quarter and with the game on the line.
You ignore every single demonstration of skill from Legolas, talk him down based on losing against a prepared magician and not killing a target that was almost impossible to hit. This while making up feats for Achilles. /thread[/B]
You haven't debunked anything. You just ignore the times he failed and highlight the fodder feats.
All answered and debunked already. You're reaching. I accept your inferiority, my child. Moving on.[/B]
Achilles' feats and the situation he was in was far more impressive than a guy who competed against Gimli in a killing competition. Achilles wins battle he doesn't have stupid side bets with dwarves. Achilles is simply beyond him much in the same vein as I am beyond you.
Achilles did never face anyone close to Legolas in terms of ability - which is a fact you don't get. Logic has nothing to do with your side of the argument - the entire forum did already notice that. So I will chalk up any further comment from you as an attempt to keep face in front of your non-existant online friends and amuse myself by holding you up to ridicule as long as I see it fit. You can avoid that by stopping to post. Have a nice life. [/B]
I will have great life. Thanks for being so polite and not being a sore loser. 👆
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can continue to play the role of a funny man but it isn't winning you any debates.
Wow. Apparently, I have to spell it out for you.
I've tried to fill the giant gap between your ears with some knowledge that could be useful when discussing an ancient Greek warhero - namely: ancient Greek warfare. The link answers two questions you have asked me:
a) Why the enemies don't surround Achilles
b) How I know that those are trusting spears
You see: As demonstrated in the battle right in front of the city gates, the Troy soldiers fight as Phalanx. The soldiers in a phalanx (hoplites) usually carry heavy (rather large) shields and trusting spears and act as a unit. This method of fighting was so crucial to Greek infantry, that they coined the phrase "e tan a epi tas" meaning "with it or on it", refering to the heavy shield the hoplites carried. It was considered a cardinal sin to flee the Phalanx formation, because once it was broken, the soldiers were rather helpless and they could only flee from battle, when throwing their heavy shield away.
So the answers to your questions are: They are constantly outmanouvred by Achilles, because they carry around those heavy shields and use trusting weapons, designed for a combat range father than that of Achilles sword. No spear throwing at your favorite happening, I'm afraid.
The distance along with the target moving and the strength required to do so shows this feat to be superhuman. You can pretend a normal guy can toss spears and always hit their targets like Achilles does in Troy but I still know you really can't believe that.
He throws one spear and hits one target. Where do you find the material needed to conclude that he can always hit in the same situation? Because there isn't a second demonstration of his skill in spear throwing? This is especially funny, coming from the guy that attempts to talk down Legolas, because of delivering a grant total of two shots not lethal over the course of three movies, firing several hundred arrows.
So you admit Gandalf can block his attacks or that his attacks aren't always fatal aka he failed big time in bringing down a Uruk Hai. All he had to do was shoot him in the eyeball and according to you it's automatic maybe he just was kidding around. If Legolas isn't clutch why argue he's clutch here. You say the situation being so overwhelming or implying as such when his target is just running in a straight line doesn't instill in him a great confidence.
Are you nuts?
Gandalf can just block his attack, because he blinded Legolas before he loses his arrow which would logically result in a lack of accuracy, and has magic to deflect the arrow.
The Uruk Hai was running through a narrow alley between other Uruk Hai with Legolas being rather far away from him. Despite of that circumstances, he still manages to hit him twice, which - even though Legolas failed to kill his target - is a display of finest archery skills. I wonder, how you fail to recognize it as such. Bias? Probably.
Achilles is using his complete focus. We've seen what he can do with partial focus and we've seen Legolas fail and his arrow blocked. it doesn't take a german genius to connect the dots. Wait are you saying you're not the smartest man in germany like neph previously claimed ?
Neph claimed, that I'm the smartest guy that he knows. And as such, I can tell you once more that you are either missing or dodging the point.
The arrows would come flying with 240-360 kph over a distance of 30 feet, which gives Achilles a great total of 0,1 to 0,15 seconds in order to react to an arrow shot. So...if he does so much as blink, he dies. It is completely impossible, that he manages to react to a shot by moving his shield in a position to block it in that short amount of time. And even if he could:
At 0:53, Legolas puts an arrow through two Orcs attacking him, which means that the arrow has enough power to pierce at least three layers of metal armor and one Orc, with still enough energy left to kill the second Orc as well. I'd say Achilles' shield and armor would be completely useless. But maybe you want to hand in an argument, that he is capable of dodging Legolas shots. 🙄
Quit mincing words almost isn't equal to. End of story.
"2" is not "almost 4 million". And now acknowledge, that it is far harder to block an arrow than do the same to a trusting spear, so that I can accept your concession and be done with this idiocy.
He can have enhanced battle awareness just like in comics characters can have cosmic awareness. You acting like this idea is mutually exclusive to star wars alone is a treat alright.
He doesn't have anything, unless it is mentioned or shown on screen. Stop making up feats and abilities for your favorite character - it's simple ridiculous.
based on what would he stand no chance ? He'd easily kill that troll while dancing around it's clumsy attacks. he wouldn't need an entire group to do so. If you threw Legolas into a duel with Hector with a sword he'd lose as well.
Right. May I point to the fact, that the entire fellowship was hacking away on the troll, without archiving much. And no - this is no reason to talk the companions down, but demonstrates the durability of the troll. And what about the Mumakill? Ignored again.
Legolas in a swordfight with Hector? Either you did miss how the elf handles his blades - as usual - or you hold the same bias for Hector you have for Achilles. You may watch the video above. There is a short sequence of him mawing down "fodder", offing two Uruk Hai in two seconds.
Gandalf has to be quick enough to react. We've seen Saruman get stabbed to death so yes he needs to react beforehand.
How does Gandalf need to react in a way that Achilles would need to react? Gandalf had the benefit of magic, using it to blind Legolas. Then he again uses magic to repel the arrow. He doesn't need to react on the arrow at all, since summoning some kind of magical field in front of him would be enough to get the job done. An easier task, mind you, than Achilles would be confronted with, provided he will face Legolas without blinding the elf (higher accuracy) at a closer distance (less reaction time).
Storming the beach is easily better than Legolas' feat there. Achilles overtook an entire battle not just used a ranged weapon to take out mere fodder amidst a giant beast.
How is storming the beach better than the usual adventures of the fellowship. Achilles doesn't slaughter anybody of decent skill in his take on the beach, faces less opponents than Legolas does in almost every situation of the movie and generates less kills than the elfs. So how is his feat better? There is nothing to put him above Legolas there - not even something making him on par with the elf.
He did hit an easy to hit target just running wildly without a shield or any manner in which to defend himself unlike Achilles.
Easy to hit? Either you honestly no idea about archery, are devoid of reason or just exhibit bias once more. Look at the scene, look from where Legolas attempts to hit the target. Factor in movement speed and the cover present in form of the countless Uruk Hai surrounding the target. There is no way any human archer would have even managed to hit that target at all - much less twice in a row.
And Achilles shield would be utterly useless against Legolas considering the range and the power behind the shots of the elf.
No, I said he's very accurate against brutish unskilled warriors but not as effective against Gandalf or as clutch against the Uruk Hai when it was the fourth quarter and with the game on the line.
Holy shit.
How is his accuracy affected by the skill of his target? Correct: It is not. You try to argue two absolute exceptions in which - funny fact - Legolas did still hit his mark against impossible odds. What is your point? Attempting to talk down a character on his lowest showings, which are still impressive to everybody not completely devoid of common sense?
You haven't debunked anything. You just ignore the times he failed and highlight the fodder feats.
You fail to acknowledge, that even his "failure" makes him look pretty uber, because you understand jack shit about the art of fighting, which you have demonstrated by trying to sell us, that it's harder to block a spear with a sword, than deflecting an arrow using one. Do you want to litter this thread with more bullshit?
Achilles' feats and the situation he was in was far more impressive than a guy who competed against Gimli in a killing competition. Achilles wins battle he doesn't have stupid side bets with dwarves. Achilles is simply beyond him much in the same vein as I am beyond you.
And now, it's character design that wins fights? Seriously?
But you're correct. Achilles is beyond Legolas in much the same vein as you are beyond me: just in your imagination. 🙂
I will have great life. Thanks for being so polite and not being a sore loser. 👆
Rather easy, provided I already won three postings ago and just spent my time here, out of curiousity, if that fact will ever make it to Quanchiland.