Rachel is an idiot. She just told the Celestials to f'off this thrall power if hers is something else.
That's why I said that PF is from the Cancerverse. Loeb said there's a significant reason why it's blue.
Alo the fragment thing is going to be ignored. The editors said you don't have to know a thing about the PF to understand it's motivations. Which is why I believe he PF is already whole.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Rachel is an idiot. She just told the Celestials to f'off this thrall power if hers is something else.That's why I said that PF is from the Cancerverse. Loeb said there's a significant reason why it's blue.
Alo the fragment thing is going to be ignored. The editors said you don't have to know a thing about the PF to understand it's motivations. Which is why I believe he PF is already whole.
The Phoenix that we saw in Point One isnt the whole Phoenix Force. If you remember the Phoenix shards from Rachel and Korvus' Phoenix Blade were blue so thats blatantly the Phoenix thats razing worlds which is another point that doesnt match up with your statement that Hope yanked the Phoenix from Rachel.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix that we saw in Point One isnt the whole Phoenix Force. If you remember the Phoenix shards from Rachel and Korvus' Phoenix Blade were blue so thats blatantly the Phoenix thats razing worlds which is another point that doesnt match up with your statement that Hope yanked the Phoenix from Rachel.
Yes which is why I said it's the Phoenix Force from the Cancerverse. Terrax's planet is right next door to it. The fragment thing was already dealt with the moment Hope returned to the 616 Universe. Just saying, none of those architects give a crap about continuity and as far as all of them are concerned Jean is dead. Heck Matt Fraction thinks Jeans body is still in one piece. They're going to re work the Phoenix mythos. Also Bendis and Loeb are also writing this.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakYes which is why I said it's the Phoenix Force from the
Cancerverse. Terrax's planet is right next door to it. The fragment
thing was already dealt with the moment Hope returned to the 616
Universe. Just saying, none of those architects give a crap about
continuity and as far as all of them are concerned Jean is dead. Heck
Matt Fraction thinks Jeans body is still in one piece. They're going to re
work the Phoenix mythos. Also Bendis and Loeb are also writing this.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yes which is why I said it's the Phoenix Force from the Cancerverse. Terrax's planet is right next door to it. The fragment thing was already dealt with the moment Hope returned to the 616 Universe. Just saying, none of those architects give a crap about continuity and as far as all of them are concerned Jean is dead. Heck Matt Fraction thinks Jeans body is still in one piece. They're going to re work the Phoenix mythos. Also Bendis and Loeb are also writing this.
Well theres no point wasting energy over that which has yet to happen.
Lets just wait and see 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormAnd you can just SMD 😂
Damn GS, that's just one,
while your cyber tongue has given happy endings for years
to any and all who dispute anything Mr M posts.
So while the thought of me SYD may entertain you,
I find the idea even constricted in your mind appalling. 😘
Please let's stick to comics and leave our evil urges at home.
Originally posted by GalacticStormIf youre gonna try and drop a "witty" rebuttal
then at least make sure your sh*ts spelled correctly."Our evil urges"? Speak for yourself chick
We have different kinks,
mine isn't yours but it could be considered an "evil" urge to the less carnal. 😈
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It doesnt include the Phoenix Force. As the sum of all life it cant include the Phoenix Force. She has on panel already been called a child of the Phoenix Force and as Sinister suggests here on panel shes actually just a fragment of the Phoenix Force. Given the Forces shattered status and Jean being on a mission to recover her missing pieces it all fits in that hopes one of them.
*Crosses Fingers
Legion vs Thor!
Originally posted by GalacticStormYes, please.
So lets really get to crux of this lesson. 🙂Jeans mission as Phoenix was to [B]not only
remove the threat of Sublime from reality, to disinfect it, but also to remove the conditions in which he managed to gain such a stronghold. [/b]
We won't get there when you keep assuming all your conclusions. Actually... what you're doing is assuming a set of premises which naturally leads you to your conclusion. I care less for your loaded scenarios than I do your assumed conclusions. I don't agree wit your premises. The rest of your post is conjecture based off same.
Originally posted by GalacticStormBecause he got wrecked by Jean on-panel??? Seriously, I don't know what point you're trying to refer to here.
I does [B]NOT explain why there is not a Phoenix powered Sublime running around in the multiverse. [/b]
Originally posted by GalacticStormSo your entire argument now rests on your interpretation of a feat/consequence from a handbook, rather than what's depicted on-panel. Because, yea... nowhere is it mentioned on-panel that the Here Comes Tomorrow future no longer exists anywhere in the Marvel Multiverse of all alternate realities. Should I post the other handbook entry that mentions nothing of this severing, much less that it was telekinesis-related?
So youre back where you started.HCT the actual future doesnt exist in the multiverse anymore. [B]WHY?!!
😱 😂 [/B]
Originally posted by leonidas"[A] pretty unique event" from a handbook. And I read, with much laughter, how GalacticStorm himself was offered a job to write some up. Needless to say, I already held low estimations of handbooks as any sort of evidence and having now heard what sort of people actually write them or are approached to write them, I'm even less inclined to put any sort of stock in them when the actual comic itself makes little or no note, ambiguous or otherwise. In the comic, the Here Comes Tomorrow future is its own separate reality, divergent and thus separated from the 616 universe due to Jean's nudging of Scott.
and as much as i've been enjoying this little tete-a-tete, (much more enjoyable than the usual gs/masters scan blitz wars) this is really the only question that odg hasn't really been able to counter aside from saying it's a trope that's ignored as often as it is addressed. i'm not so sure about that. that future universe is gone--not diverged, not disinfected, but......gone. that is a pretty unique event. 😬
As far as an explanation of secondary evidence (that conflicts with other secondary evidence as I've already pointed out), here's one possibility. The handbook he's relying on may refer to "multiverse" but actually meant "616 universe," which has been, itself, referred to as a multiverse several times. So, that handbook entry may have meant that the 15104 alternate reality was severed from the 616 multiverse, much in the same way that any divergent reality severs itself from the 616 canon reality into its own alternate reality with # designation. We all know from my many discussions with Mr Master, how often "multiverse" and "universe" get mixed up with each other. Particularly in handbooks. Heck, we still don't know from Chaos War, whether Mikaboshi absorbed "98% of the multiverse" (which is what was stated on-panel several times) or if he actually absorbed "98% of the multiverse 616 universe." Most people go with the latter. I don't blame them.
So color me skeptical when all I'm presented with is some vague handbook entry that isn't even consistent with other handbook entries. We've got handbook entries that do not mention the Here Comes Tomorrow alternate reality being completely banished from the Marvel Multiverse of all alternate realities. And I didn't see that happen on-panel. And even if it did happen between panels, the recklessness we've seen terms like "multiverse" being used both on and off-panel can be resolved by the above explanation. Convenient explanation? Maybe, but I don't see how I can be blamed for it when it happens all the time even with on-panel statements within a comic, much less inconsistent off-panel statements found in a random handbook entry.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, please.We won't get there when you keep assuming all your conclusions. Actually... what you're doing is assuming a set of premises which naturally leads you to your conclusion. I care less for your loaded scenarios than I do your assumed conclusions. I don't agree wit your premises. The rest of your post is conjecture based off same. Because he got wrecked by Jean on-panel??? Seriously, I don't know what point you're trying to refer to here. So your entire argument now rests on your interpretation of a feat/consequence from a handbook, rather than what's depicted on-panel. Because, yea... nowhere is it mentioned on-panel that the Here Comes Tomorrow future no longer exists anywhere in the Marvel Multiverse of all alternate realities. Should I post the other handbook entry that mentions nothing of this severing, much less that it was telekinesis-related? "[A] pretty unique event" from a handbook. And I read, with much laughter, how GalacticStorm himself was offered a job to write some up. Needless to say, I already held low estimations of handbooks as any sort of evidence and having now heard what sort of people actually write them or are approached to write them, I'm even less inclined to put any sort of stock in them when the actual comic itself makes little or no note, ambiguous or otherwise. In the comic, the Here Comes Tomorrow future is its own separate reality, divergent and thus separated from the 616 universe due to Jean's nudging of Scott.
As far as an explanation of secondary evidence (that conflicts with other secondary evidence as I've already pointed out), here's one possibility. The handbook he's relying on may refer to "multiverse" but actually meant "616 universe," which has been, itself, referred to as a multiverse several times. So, that handbook entry may have meant that the 15104 alternate reality was severed from the 616 multiverse, much in the same way that any divergent reality severs itself from the 616 canon reality into its own alternate reality with # designation. We all know from my many discussions with Mr Master, how often "multiverse" and "universe" get mixed up with each other. Particularly in handbooks. Heck, we still don't know from Chaos War, whether Mikaboshi absorbed "98% of the multiverse" (which is what was stated on-panel several times) or if he actually absorbed "98% of the
multiverse616 universe." Most people go with the latter. I don't blame them.So color me skeptical when all I'm presented with is some vague handbook entry that isn't even consistent with other handbook entries. We've got handbook entries that do not mention the Here Comes Tomorrow alternate reality being completely banished from the Marvel Multiverse of all alternate realities. And I didn't see that happen on-panel. And even if it did happen between panels, the recklessness we've seen terms like "multiverse" being used both on and off-panel can be resolved by the above explanation. Convenient explanation? Maybe, but I don't see how I can be blamed for it when it happens all the time even with on-panel statements within a comic, much less inconsistent off-panel statements found in a random handbook entry.
Blah blah blah 🙄
The handbook entry isnt consistent with other handbook entries because youre stubbornly looking at it through the eyes of your interpretation.
If you were objective you would acknowledge that one handbook says Phoenix disinfected the future reality and then influenced Scotts reaction, the other says the Phoenix severed the future reality from the multiverse and then influenced Scott.
They do not contradict each other. As aforementioned to disinfect is to free from infection. So if we were to take Jeans statement in the 1st instance(where she said the future was so badly infected she had to resort to amputating it) literally then the handbooks are very much consistent.
Your interpretation conflicts with the 2nd handbook. How arrogant to see fault in the handbook before considering that your argument may actually be wrong.
My argument is supported by both handbooks and its easy to see how it can be interpreted from the comic book scenes.
Yours is contradicted by-
1.one handbook which states the actual future was severed
2.by the vocabulary used on panel (extracting bacteria from Beast doesnt correlate with amputating the future)
3.by the non-existence of HCT (reality 15104) in the multiverse according to an official source
4.By the fact that simply removing the Phoenix powered Sublime from the endpoint of the 150 years that was the HCT reality would have left a major threat to evolution operational.
Think of the Dark Avengers when Sentry killed Morgan Le Fay. The sorceress from the past. All she did was travel from the past to the present again and took out Sentry. That would NOT be a successful disinfection 😂
Your interpretation has too many holes in it.
And i dont wanna hear any rubbish about how the handbook simply meant 15104 diverged from 616 when it said Jean severed the reality from the multiverse. AGAIN you are twisting and overlooking the actual meaning of words to coincide with the conclusion you have already made instead of being humble enough to just accept you are contradicted. To amputate is to cut off an extremity from a main body thats what it said on panel, the handbook said Jean severed the future reality from the multiverse which is a consistent description. To diverge is to take different paths from a common point. That does not match up with your offered explanation.
Furthermore on panel Jean stated she amputated the future way BEFORE she was shown to alter the past. What causes a reality to diverge in marvel is an alteration of the past. So if this amputation happened prior to that which by canon causes a divergence, how can the handbook be referring to a divergence when it says she severed the reality from the multiverse.? The amputation happened before she altered the past 😕
Your offered explanation is therefore conclusively incorrect.
I can and have answered ALL queries thrown my way, you cannot do the same with the discrepancies i have highlighted. I am supported on panel and by the handbooks and not contradicted by any official source. You can NOT say the same.
If you were objective and humble that would tell you all that you need to know.
Originally posted by GalacticStormIrony.
Blah blah blah 🙄
Originally posted by GalacticStormNo. The handbooks that don't mention this severing of the future telekinetically simply don't mention it at all. Odd how handbooks could leave out such a stupendous, one-of-a-kind feat out. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But it is evidence of contradiction... in secondary sources.
The handbook entry isnt consistent with other handbook entries because youre stubbornly looking at it through the eyes of your interpretation.
Originally posted by GalacticStormCorrection: One handbook says by extracting Sublime, Phoenix disinfected the future reality. That is also what is revealed by Jean's conversation with the Phoenix consciousness, the two are one and the same:
If you were objective you would acknowledge that one handbook says Phoenix disinfected the future reality and then influenced Scotts reaction, the other says the Phoenix severed the future reality from the multiverse and then influenced Scott.
Sorry you can't even get to the propriety of the handbook entry when on-panel conversation disproves your very assertions in the first instance (which, ironically, is supported by another handbook -- you love handbooks).
Originally posted by GalacticStorm1. emphasis on handbook contradicted by another handbook and not supported by anything we actually see on-panel
Yours is contradicted by-1.one handbook which states the actual future was severed
2.by the vocabulary used on panel (extracting bacteria from Beast doesnt correlate with amputating the future)
3.by the non-existence of HCT (reality 15104) in the multiverse according to an official source
4.By the fact that simply removing the Phoenix powered Sublime from the endpoint of the 150 years that was the HCT reality would have left a major threat to evolution operational.
Originally posted by GalacticStormOne handbook, contradicted by another. I don't have to make excuses about how telekinesis wasn't even mentioned in any handbook. I don't have to make excuses that you still haven't shown s which panel this telekinetic severing of future actually happened. I don't have to make excuses that telekinesis isn't used on time in the first place. I don't have to make excuses that handbooks flat out don't even mention this severing, much less a telekinetic one. I don't have to ignore that severing/destroying a future timeline is wholly needless in the face of context. I don't have to ignore that changing Scot's heart doesn't require telekinetically summoning a universe. I don't have to make excuses over how flimsy and unreliable handbooks are.
And i dont wanna hear any rubbish about how the handbook simply meant 15104 diverged from 616 when it said Jean severed the reality from the multiverse. AGAIN you are twisting and overlooking the actual meaning of words to coincide with the conclusion you have already made instead of being humble enough to just accept you are contradicted. To amputate is to cut off an extremity from a main body thats what it said on panel, the handbook said Jean severed the future reality from the multiverse which is a consistent description. To diverge is to take different paths from a common point. That does not match up with your offered explanation.
You think your interpretation is more solid? Get real. Possible. Not probable at all. Not even realistic. More feat-crafting for the sake of feat-crafting. I'll not apologize that all you have is a handbook entry contradicted by others. Figure out when you have something on-panel that doesn't upend your interpretation.
Originally posted by GalacticStormRead the comic. If I wanted to argue handbooks, I would. I'm not arguing which handbook entry is more reliable. I'm arguing what happened on-panel. What you said happened, didn't. Get over it.
If you were objective and humble that would tell you all that you need to know.
Originally posted by OneDumbG01. emphasis on handbook contradicted by another handbook and not supported by anything we actually see on-panel
Irony. No. The handbooks that don't mention this severing of the future telekinetically simply don't mention it at all. Odd how handbooks could leave out such a stupendous, one-of-a-kind feat out. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But it is evidence of contradiction... in secondary sources. Correction: One handbook says by extracting Sublime, Phoenix disinfected the future reality. That is also what is revealed by Jean's conversation with the Phoenix consciousness, the two are one and the same:
You think your interpretation is more solid? Get real. Possible. Not probable at all. Not even realistic. More feat-crafting for the sake of feat-crafting. I'll not apologize that all you have is a handbook entry contradicted by others. Figure out when you have something on-panel that doesn't upend your interpretation. Read the comic. If I wanted to argue handbooks, I would. I'm not arguing which handbook entry is more reliable. I'm arguing what happened on-panel. What you said happened, didn't. Get over it. [/B][/QUOTE]
I love how none of that actually dealt with the discrepancies i highlighted. 😖hifty:
Argue all you want but to disinfect is to free from infect. That is FACT. One handbook said Jean disinfected that future reality. Thats true. One said she amputated that future reality. Both would result in freeing reality from infection, so both would be worthy of the response "Phoenix disinfection successful"
Simple 🙂
The fact remains is that if we were to take your interpretation and explore its implications then it doesnt make sense-
to extract Sublime from Beast does not match up with the term amputate. They are two separate distinct surgical procedures, they are two different words. Do NOT equate them to suit your interpretation
An official source takes my interpretation and says that the actual future was cut off from the multiverse. Thats THAT.
Your offered explanation that they were referring to a divergence makes no sense because the amputation happened prior to the past alteration. Once again you were wrong. 🙂
To simply remove Sublime from the endpoint of 150 years of timeline leave him in reality to be a threat to evolution. How is that a successful disinfect. HOW?!! 😱
Once again look at what Morgan Le Fay did in Dark Avengers.
With an open mind and objectivity you can take my interpretation and see how it can be taken from the scenes and how it is supported by all official sources.
Yours doesnt fare nearly as well.
Thats all that needs to be said. Happy New Year 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStormActually I did. Severely. Sorry you're left speechless.
I love how none of that actually dealt with the discrepancies i highlighted. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by GalacticStormCorrection: 1) Again, one handbook said extracting Sublime = disinfection of future reality. 2) And on-panel, the Phoenix consciousness equated disinfection with amputation of future.
Argue all you want but to disinfect is to free from infect. That is FACT. One handbook said Jean disinfected that future reality. Thats true. One said she amputated that future reality. Both would result in freeing reality from infection, so both would be worthy of the response "Phoenix disinfection successful"
1) "She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body, disinfecting the entire future reality."
2) Jean literally talks about Sublime and makes her statement, "Some kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue... I... had to amputate the whole future." And in direct response... the Phoenix consciousness literally states, "Phoen/////ix disinf///ection suc///cessf///ul."
Both the comic and the handbook state that when she extracted Sublime, she disinfected/amputated the future. They're the same thing, flowery prose for the same thing. Not to be taken literally. After all, we know that in the very next panel, she refers to Sublime itself as the "future." And of course, we know not to take that literally. That you need to take one statement about "future" literally and not the very next one... is simply hypocritical. Simple.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAnd another doesn't mention sh1t. And the comic doesn't mention that sh1t either. That's THAT.
An official source takes my interpretation and says that the actual future was cut off from the multiverse. Thats THAT.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWho cares what she did off-panel to keep resurrecting herself. She didn't telekinetically sever futures. 😂
Once again look at what Morgan Le Fay did in Dark Avengers.
Originally posted by GalacticStormPhuck off with your inane feat-crafting. Happy New Years.
Thats all that needs to be said. Happy New Year 😉
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1. emphasis on handbook contradicted by another handbook and not supported by anything we actually see on-panel
2. no, the vocabulary on-panel clearly equates disinfection with amputation of reality
3. and Earth 15104 exists in secondary sources
4. it did, and it got stomped on-panel by Jean in that dystopic future, which sucks for that future but like we said, you can't change the future, you can only prevent that future from happening to 616
1 Do i really have to define the word contradict to you? 🙄 One handbook says she disinfected that future reality and thats true. Its stated on panel. One said she severed the future from reality. Thats true. Its stated on panel. Same event with different aspects of the story highlighted. Theres no contradiction there. If you wish to go down that route then my handbook entries far more recent 😄 And we dont see it on panel? Maybe not clear as day bang in your face but as Jean says she had to amputate the future reality 15104 fades from view. Its all about interpretation. Either way mine is officially backed.
2 NO The results of Jeans actions gain her the congratulatory "Phoenix disnfection successful". To disinfect is to free from disinfection. Jean 1st extracted Sublime and then stated the infection was so bad she had to go as far as amputating the future. Her actions meant Sublime was no longer a threat to evolution which is the Forces job to perpetuate by canon in all reality. To extract and to amputate are two entirely different surgical procedures and as words have completely different meanings. The two are NOT equated. Jean extracting Sublime and then resorting to remove the timeline he infected resulted in her achieving her mission objective 🙂
3 What secondary sources would they be? The latest reference to reality 15104 would be the M'kraan crystal handbook entry which tells us that that reality is no longer a part of the multiverse. Not diverged, just gone 🙂
4 And this is where your argument falls apart. Jeans mission wasnt to save 616 or continue the timeline, but instead to remove a threat to evolution from reality. Which is why before Jean altered the past [/B]she was told her Phoenix work was successful.[/B] Its also why the other Phoenix said to Jean that he'd just leave the universe to die, because the Force and its work goes beyond any single reality. One of its purposes is to perpetuate multiversal wide evolution and to burn away that which does not work. Sublimes agenda however is to hinder evolution and keep everything under his control
With the Phoenix mutation that he gained during the timeline he would have been able to cause multiverse wide havoc and spread his infection. By removing Sublime at the end of the timeline and then proceeding to
It was Jean who wished to do something to help the reality she had a personal connection with. With that in mind, simply removing Sublime at the endpoint of that timeline would have left a major threat to evolution wthin reality, so what does Jean do? 😖hifty: She amputates the whole timeline as supported by her statement and the latest handbook profile on the matter 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormStop ignoring what I posted. I clearly posted and corrected you twiceover.
[B]1 Do i really have to define the word contradict to you? 🙄 One handbook says she disinfected that future reality and thats true. Its stated on panel.[/b]
The handbook entry didn't just state that she disinfected the future reality. It stated in no uncertain terms: that extracting Sublime from Beast disinfected the future reality. And the Phoneix conversation on-panel (most important), literally equates the disinfection with the amputation:
Jean literally talks about Sublime and makes her statement, "Some kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue... I... had to amputate the whole future." And in direct response... the Phoenix consciousness literally states, "Phoen/////ix disinf///ection suc///cessf///ul."
So seriously, stop trying to ignore one of the most pointed and clearly damning indictments on your interpretation. Extracting Sublime = disinfection/amputation of "future." Disinfection = amputation with Grant Morrison's imaginative flowery prose. Sublime = future, which you ALREADY ADMITTED in the very next statement. Which is why you don't read one small phrase in isolation literally. Because you can't just pick and choose when to take a flowery statement literally and when not to, when they share the same exact term.
Stop being such a blatant hypocrite. That's the third time I've had to correct you on such a clearly unequivocal point. Not a small one, mind you, since it completely destroys your assertion that he handbooks square with your interpretation (they don't) and that they don't literally support my interpretation of what's stated on-panel (it does).