Phoenix vs Onslaught

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Since when has Archangel been depicted in comics as a destructive energy wielder?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

How can you lie so blatantly?

But I've been asking you since your lies back o5'
you know, the whole LT bowing to Phoenix bull shit
but some things just are, and I've accepted you for what you are.

it's still fun watching your Phoenix delusions in play.

That is it ....

+++++++++++++

Simple.

Scott Summers left the X-Men in 616 and this caused "Here Comes Tomorrow" to diverge,
like all What Ifs.

Now,
had Scott never made that decision, then "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) does not diverge,
in other words, it's NEVER created, it never existed.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple.

thankyou

Incredible 😂

Youve fallen so far Mr Master.

Ive said all i need to say anyway, youve had no impact today whatsoever, the true debate was between me and ODG and that is now over.

With regards to the HCT/Phoenix issue my argument came out on top because of points i had which could not be countered.

I depart as champion.

Farewell 😉

GAME OVER 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

A lot happened in the 150 years between the HCT trigger point (Scotts negative reaction to Emma) and the end of the timeline we saw in New X-men 154:

Sublime made a breakthrough and adapted to affect mutants

Sublime consolidated his power on the planet

Most importantly, Sublime gained the power of the Phoenix mutation.

All prior to this controversial amputation moment.

So lets really get to crux of this lesson. 🙂

Jeans mission as Phoenix was to [B]not only remove the threat of Sublime from reality, to disinfect it, but also to remove the conditions in which he managed to gain such a stronghold.

By merely removing Sublime at the end of that 150 year duration that was HCT reality and then going on to change the past, Sublime with the power of the Phoenix still exists within reality. D'OH bangin

Furthermore if thats all that she did, the Here Comes Tomorrow future reality would still exist in the multiverse as a divergent reality if as per your flawed and officially denied interpretation in both instances of the "future" reference Jean was referring to Sublime 🙂

So try as you might to deflect by focusing on the fact that its not stated to be achieved by telekinesis (irrelevant, the Phoenix can generate any energy/power by canon) so that you actually have more than one sentence to write

Try and ignore Jeans statement, the consequences of her actions and the handbook entry which all similarly reject your interpretation

But at the end of the day Sublime being the subject in question does NOT explain why the actual reality 15104 was severed from the multiverse

I does NOT explain why there is not a Phoenix powered Sublime running around in the multiverse.

So youre back where you started.

HCT the actual future doesnt exist in the multiverse anymore. WHY?!! 😱 😂 [/B]

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incredible

Youve fallen so far Mr Master.

You've fallen so far Galactic Storm.

See how easy it is to type meaningless drivel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Ive said all i need to say anyway, youve had no impact today
whatsoever, the true debate was between me and ODG and that is
now over.

But that aside:

"the true debate" ... ? 😂

There was no debate, it was a slaughter.

OneDumbGo owned you completely.

No different than when you and I go at it.

Result:

You get owned.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

With regards to the HCT/Phoenix issue my argument came out on
top because of points i had which could not be countered.

LOL! ... You're pathetic, but funny.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I depart as champion.

Jean: "I had to amputate the future"

MARVEL HANDBOOKS: Phoenix severed the reality 15104 from the multiverse BEFORE going on to ensure that future never came about in 616 by altering past events. The prior destruction of this future reality by Phoenix explaining why HCT didnt just continue to exist as a divergent reality following the past alteration:

MARVEL COMICS- Future realities cannot be affected by altering past events, altering the past, it merely creates a divergent reality and leaves that future unaffected

Originally posted by zopzop

@OnedumbG0 and GS

I think GS is on to something when he said changing the past under normal circumstances does not change the future. In an issue of Quasar some being that Quasar couldn't stop was tricked into going back into time to achieve his goals. Another hero stated that this was madness since once there, he could basically conquer all reality. Quasar said that Uatu stated it's not that easy. Merely going back in time or trying to alter the future only produces an alternate timeline and does NOT affect mainstream reality.

Originally posted by 13658518[B
]Originally posted by zopzop
@OneDumbG0 and GS

It seems that it's been confirmed multiple times on panel by different writers that you can't just go back in time or remove something from a universe willy-nilly and expect to change the future or reality in general (the best you can do is cause a divergent reality).

Here is another one from the Fantastic Four, Reed states that their only chance is to use the UN to wipe that entire future from the timeline.

They give it to Galactus, he fires it off and it's successful.

So we have two cases where a possible future was not only averted but done away with all together. It took the UN wielded by Galactus for one and Jean/PF for the other. So it's still a damn impressive feat. [/B]

Mr Master in response to all of this:

Originally posted by Mr Master

I don't care what unrelated, irrelevant outside source anyone ontains to derail facts.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple, and I'm done. swank

So despite the comic and handbook saying Jean got rid of HCT from the multiverse before going on to replace it by altering the past and despite comics saying you cant affect a future by merely changing the past he continues to ignore the feat and evidence and insist HCT ceased to exist merely because Jean altered Scotts reaction. 😐

And when that doesnt shut me up we get :

Originally posted by Mr Master
+++++++++++

Yet again!

The Phoenix Force getting OWNED!

++++++++++

Archangel annihilates several X-Men and OWNS the Phoenix almost effortlessly,
even after withstanding the Phoenix's initial attack.

Don't make me bring out the 6 Heroes who stalemated and then displaced the Phoenix Force.

Or the Alien Ship that impaled and nearly killed the Phoenix Force.

Or the Shiar shattering it and nearly killing it as well.

Or Xorn exploding the Phoenix Force into billions of pieces,
while simultaneously killing the host. (Jean)

Or Quasar owning Rachel Summers with the full Force.
[/B]

TRANSLATION: I'm beat. I aint got nothing to say but look here Phoenix is sh*t anyway 🙄

Originally posted by zopzop
I honestly think it's just his and ODG's different take on what was going on in those HCT scans.

At this point, I can see where he and ODG are coming from with their opinions but then again statements like "it's an orphan universe" and "if it were me I'd just let it die" statement by the PC member concerning what Jean had in her hands is a slam dunk in favor of it being an actual universe and not merely a visualization. But I don't care about that anymore.

After all this, I'm more impressed with Jean erasing that future from the timeline WITHOUT causing a divergence, she literally wiped it out. Nothing short of the UN wielded by an experienced user can do that (so far that I've seen). And all this is backed up with on panel proof (I don't put much faith into Handbook stuff).

You know what could end this? Or at least add more insight into what was going on? If someone could contact the writer and ask him. I know Guy or someone else had luck contacting other writers and asking questions about certain comics. I wonder if that would be possible here?

Merry Christmas all

Thanks for the word Zop

I tweet em all the time got a reply back from Kieron Christmas Eve

Remember friends, there was a certain Celestial in an issue. Who knows about the Celestial Death Seed? Is it Continuity? And did Warren fear the Celestials coming? I know all those questions

Peace and Love All

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You can't possibly be so dense as to think anybody would be
fooled by your waffling. Jean literally holds Sublime (which she
undeniably refers to as the "future"😉, Jean states she had to
"amputate" the "future," and the Phoenix consciousness states that
her "disinfection" was successful. Go away.

At this point, you're trolling. "Waaaah... Jean was being literal about amputating the future... but she wasn't being literal when she referred to Sublime as the future... waaah." Not only do we have on-panel confirmation that the "disinfection" and the "amputation" were the same thing, as confirmed in the handbook but your argument that they somehow aren't hinges on a completely hypocritical double-standard. It's insufferable. From your mouth to God's ear. Projection, much? Yeah, say g'night.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean: "I had to amputate the future"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Phoenix severed the reality 15104 from the multiverse BEFORE going on
to ensure that future never came about in 616 by altering past events.

We know she extracted Sublime first which lead to the amputation of said future,
she then at the end "nudged Cyclops of 616 to re-open the X Institute to prevent
this future from coming about"

This is what I've been saying dude.

Jean didn't directly affect Reality 15104.

Jean traveled back in time to 616, changed Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men.

Reality 15104 now no longer exists.

This is the SAME description in the actual "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio:

🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
and as much as i've been enjoying this little tete-a-tete, (much more enjoyable than the usual gs/masters scan blitz wars) this is really the only question that odg hasn't really been able to counter aside from saying it's a trope that's ignored as often as it is addressed. i'm not so sure about that. that future universe is gone--not diverged, not disinfected, but......gone. that is a pretty unique event. 😬

😱 😂

...................................................................................

Bottom line:

When Scott changed his mind,
that "Possible" Future (Reality 15104) was nulled/altered.

Nothing more imo..

15104 is just ONE of Countless possible Futures of 616,
nothing more imo.

This is why the BIO clearly states,

"ensuring that At least ONE apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"

...................................................................................

Every "What if" (which is what "Here Comes Tomorrow" is, basically)
as in "What if Scott left the X-Men and Emma"
can be altered/nulled in the SAME manner.

Go back into 616's Past before the divergence,
and stop whatever occured that created said divergence,
but the "Future" never had to come, because it was happening already 150 years later,
while the Present Reality is happening now, in this continuum called 616.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

despite comics saying you cant affect a future by merely changing the past

...................................................................................

Any who,

here are several FUTURES that are direct products of 616.

Yea, as in actual "FutureS" of 616,

yes, as in,
if you travel back in time from these Realities, you end up in 616.

Furthermore,
most of these Realities I'll be presenting
[b]have been manipulated and/or altered[/u]
by affecting the MODERN Age of 616 (yes ... as in the Present)

Just like the events of Reality 15104 and Jean. ✅

First off ...

+++ "Here Comes Tomorrow" is just ANOTHER Alternate Reality: +++

(does anyone see anything special/distinguishing next to the title? ... Me neither) 😬

...................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................

======== Days of Future Past - Earth - 811 (a Future of 616) =======

(Rachel is from the Future ... and came to 616)

Kate/Rachel/PhoenixForce going back and forth in Time (from 616 to the Future)

They literally altered the Future, by their actions in 616:

"The Force followed Rachel BACK to Her TIME (the Future)
the Force possessed Rachel,
and used her power to SEND her BACK to the Earth-616 of the Past,
Ahab, learned of Rachel's TIME TRAVEL and sought to locate her,
Kate/Ahab merged and became Widget,
while Ahab set about preventing any FURTHER REWRITING of what was, for him HISTORY"

"Soon after,
adult Franklin from Rachel's TIME appeared in the MODERN ERA (Present) of Earth-616"

.....................................................................................................................

======= Earth - 8410 (the Year 2020 of 616) another Future =======

The Iron-Man of the this Future, travels BACK in TIME (to 616)

to change events in his Future:

"Arno used a Time Machine to seek a retina scan of Saunders' younger self,
ARRIVING in the MODERN ERA of Earth-616,
he only succeeded in scarring the YOUNG Earth-616 Saunders"

.....................................................................................................................

==== Earth - 928 (the Year 2099 of the 616) another Future ====

"2099's Spider-Man twice encountered the heroes of Earth-616's MODERN AGE,
616's Fujikawa & 2099's Stark-Fujikawa opened temporal rifts,
sending Peter Parker forward into 2099
and Miguel O'Hara BACK nearly 100 YEARS into the PAST"

.....................................................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................

======== Earth - 4935 (the Year 3806 of 616) ========

This Future (in it's entirety) is ALTERED from again,

the MODERN ERA of 616 (Present)

"Christmas Day in 3806 Canaanites consolidate control,
Stryfe fled to Earth-616's MODERN ERA, (Present)
Tyler was captured by the Canaanites and ... was SENT to the PAST as well"

To the WHAT? ... TO THE PAST!!! (616's Modern Era)

"Nathan ALSO went BACK in Time,
hoping to PREVENT Apocalypse's rule from ever occurring,
ARRIVING Years BEFORE His Birth, he took the name Cable,
Ultimately, Cable destroyed Apocalypse in the PRESENT,
DIVERGING His FUTURE from Earth-616"

.................................................................................................................

Hmm ...
Isn't that exactly what Jean did?
(change A Future by affecting Scott on 616?) ... sarcasticclap

................................................................................................................

======= Earth-691 (the 31st Century of 616) =======

616 Heroes Time Travel to "the" FUTURE (the Year 3014)

Guardians of the Galaxy Time Travel BACK in Time to Present (616)

"In 3014, Tarin was accidentally SENT BACK to Earth-616's MODERN ERA,
CA/Thing/Sharon Carter accompanied Tarin BACK to her Time,
where they teamed with the Guardians to liberate NYC from the Badoon ...
learning that the Badoon
had staged a failed invasion of Earth in the HEROIC AGE (616)
the Guardians ...
VIA TIME TRAVEL, visited Earth-616's Modern Era, meeting that era's YOUNG Vance"

+++++++ Wow, look at that

Vance is literally Young in 616, signifying the direct link between Time periods,
obviously, the GOTG's 31st Century is a direct FUTURE of 616,
but This Future is labeled 691, just like Here Comes Tomorrow" is labeled 15104,
just like ALL "possible" FutureS of 616,
are labeled something other than 616. +++++++

"After erasing young Vance's knowledge of the Guardians and their period,
the Guardians returned to the 31st-Century Earth-691"

................................................................................................................

I guess (actually I knew) this was accurate:

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"

.................................................................................................................

.................................................................................................................

A guess I'll throw in this On Panel proof
to give the above evidence more substance.

Here's the FF traveling to the Future,
what's amazing is, even before they reach the Future,
already there's HUNDREDS of other Diverged FFs mirroring their actions:

.................................................................................................................

BTW. After they did reach said Future,
the Writer first points out that this is another Dimension,
the Dr Strange of that Future, who has risen to the position of the Ancient One there,
clearly differentiates this Reality as another Dimension:

.................................................................................................................

This is why I've told yall,
there's an infinite amount of Future Timelines,
because every action that takes place in 616,
is constantly Diverging other selves of the decision maker into other UniverseS.

.................................................................................................................

It's exactly the reason when a fan asked the Editor's of 2099,
if placing the REAL FF in this Future Timeline,
wouldn't cause a Continuity disaster for the FF on 616 he was replied with ...
actaually, read for yourselves:

.................................................................................................................

Meh, and the Cable example is a strong argument,
as he ALTERED his entire FUTURE Reality,
by traveling to the Past (Present 616) and manipulating events there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No doubt, by extracting Sublime's atoms
and shifting outside Space-Time into the WHR.

Yea, and?

We know she extracted Sublime first which lead to the amputation of said future,
she then at the end "[b]nudged Cyclops of 616 to re-open the X Institute to prevent
this future from coming about"

Upload

This is what I've been saying dude.

Jean didn't directly affect Reality 15104.

Jean traveled back in time to 616, changed Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men.

Reality 15104 now no longer exists.

This is the SAME description in the actual "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio:

[/B]

Nope.

As confirmed by this handbook scan when Jean said she amputated the future she wasnt referring to Sublime, she amputated the actual future as the handbook verifies by explicitly stating that Jean severed reality 15104.

The second bio states that Jean disinfected the future reality and then nudged cyclops to prevent that reality from occurring-

To disinfect is to free from infection. As we saw in the comic Jean 1st extracted sublime from Beast and then as she stated had to go as far as actually amputating the future because the infection was too deep. The end result was the same, she freed that reality from infection so she successfully disinfected it.

With that done she later altered the past to replace that future she had cut away.

As i proved if Jean had merely altered the past Here Comes Tomorrow would not have been affected as past alteration merely causes a divergent reality to spring up. Thats fact-

Originally posted by zopzop

@OnedumbG0 and GS

I think GS is on to something when he said changing the past under normal circumstances does not change the future. In an issue of Quasar some being that Quasar couldn't stop was tricked into going back into time to achieve his goals. Another hero stated that this was madness since once there, he could basically conquer all reality. Quasar said that Uatu stated it's not that easy. Merely going back in time or trying to alter the future only produces an alternate timeline and does NOT affect mainstream reality.

Originally posted by 13658518[B
]Originally posted by zopzop
@OneDumbG0 and GS

It seems that it's been confirmed multiple times on panel by different writers that you can't just go back in time or remove something from a universe willy-nilly and expect to change the future or reality in general (the best you can do is cause a divergent reality).

Here is another one from the Fantastic Four, Reed states that their only chance is to use the UN to wipe that entire future from the timeline.

They give it to Galactus, he fires it off and it's successful.

So we have two cases where a possible future was not only averted but done away with all together. It took the UN wielded by Galactus for one and Jean/PF for the other. So it's still a damn impressive feat. [/B]

What made this case different and the reason why the past alteration didnt merely cause a divergent reality is because prior to her past alteration as depicted in the comic and as explicitly and clearly stated in the handbook Jean 1st amputated/severed reality 15104 from the multiverse meaning her past alteration continued the 616 timeline 😄

Theres no getting around this Mr Master.

Be a grown up and accept this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
.....................................................................................................................

======== Days of Future Past - [b]Earth - 811 (a Future of 616) =======

(Rachel is from the Future ... and came to 616)

Kate/Rachel/PhoenixForce going back and forth in Time (from 616 to the Future)

They literally altered the Future, by their actions in 616:

"The Force followed Rachel BACK to Her TIME (the Future)
the Force possessed Rachel,
and used her power to SEND her BACK to the Earth-616 of the Past,
Ahab, learned of Rachel's TIME TRAVEL and sought to locate her,
Kate/Ahab merged and became Widget,
while Ahab set about preventing any FURTHER REWRITING of what was, for him HISTORY"

"Soon after,
adult Franklin from Rachel's TIME appeared in the MODERN ERA (Present) of Earth-616"

.....................................................................................................................

======= Earth - 8410 (the Year 2020 of 616) another Future =======

The Iron-Man of the this Future, travels BACK in TIME (to 616)

to change events in his Future:

"Arno used a Time Machine to seek a retina scan of Saunders' younger self,
ARRIVING in the MODERN ERA of Earth-616,
he only succeeded in scarring the YOUNG Earth-616 Saunders"

.....................................................................................................................

==== Earth - 928 (the Year 2099 of the 616) another Future ====

"2099's Spider-Man twice encountered the heroes of Earth-616's MODERN AGE,
616's Fujikawa & 2099's Stark-Fujikawa opened temporal rifts,
sending Peter Parker forward into 2099
and Miguel O'Hara BACK nearly 100 YEARS into the PAST"

..................................................................................................................... [/B]

Just demonstrating your lack of understanding about the issue.

In all of those circumstances, travelling back in time and altering time never had an affect on the future reality.

In the Days of Future Past example specifically adult Kitty Pryde travelled back in time to alter the Senator Kelly assasination attempt which caused her future. After she possessed kitty Pryde and changed the past, she went back to the future to see that the past alteration had had no affect on her future all she did was ensure that the event that lead to her future never happened in 616. However Days of Future Past still existed 🙂

If the future that Jean amputated was merely Sublime, then why following her past alteration does HCT not exist. Why was this future reality not left to exist as an alternate future reality as was the case with all other past alteration stories in marvel such as days of future past and age of apocalypse?

I'll tell you why, because when jean stated she amputated the future, when the handbook elaborated and stated jean actually severed not sublime but reality 15104 from the multiverse it was true.

Be mature, you cant win them all mate. Go off and debate in another thread and be merry 🙂 👆

Originally posted by Mr Master

"Nathan ALSO went BACK in Time,
[b]hoping to PREVENT Apocalypse's rule from ever occurring,
ARRIVING Years BEFORE His Birth, he took the name Cable,
Ultimately, Cable destroyed Apocalypse in the PRESENT,
DIVERGING His FUTURE from Earth-616"

.................................................................................................................

Hmm ...
Isn't that exactly what Jean did?
(change A Future by affecting Scott on 616?) ... sarcasticclap

[/B]

Ive been mistaken it seems.

You havent just been arguing out of revenge or playing the fool just to favour your hierarchy. You actually do not understand. 😬

NO the Cable example you mention isnt just what Jean did.

Your own evidence discredits your argument and merely bolsters my own.

As stated clearly, Cables past alterations never destroyed or affected his future, it prevented 616 from becoming that future whilst the future he came from continued to exist as a diverged reality.

Remember this scan:

Take the time out to read it and comprehend it properly, it says all of that.

So now try and understand this whole Here Comes tomorrow business:

If all Jean did was remove sublime and then alter the past then:

1) Here Comes Tomorrow would still exist in the multiverse as a diverged future. It does NOT

2) 150 years of timeline existed from the point of Scotts negative reaction to the point Jean removed Sublime, so by merely removing Sublime at the end of that timeline, Sublime with the power of the Phoenix which he obtained prior to the extraction would still exist in reality as a threat to evolution so the disinfection would not have been a success. Look how in the Dark Avengers comic Morgan Le Fey travelled from the past to the future to fight the avengers and even when sentry killed her in the present she just travelled back to the present from the past to cause havoc again seconds later 😬

So what Phoenix did was amputate the timeline to the point before Cyclops negative reaction and altered the past so that HCT not only wouldnt be the future for 616 but wouldnt exist in the multiverse at all as confirmed by the handbook-

"Phoenix disinfection successful"

😮‍💨

@MR MASTER- Avengers the Childrens Crusade is one of the titles that leads into 2012s main event Avengers Vs X-men where the Phoenix Force returns and has business with both Hope and Wanda-

We now know that all of Wandas power in House of M wasnt her own, but came from a mysteriously named "life force entity" The final two issues of this limited series will reveal exactly who this life force entity is. Given that the Phoenix Force is the primal life force of reality and this title is a lead into the Phoenix Force event Avengers Vs X-men, if the source of Wandas power really is revealed to be the Phoenix Force then you are well and truly finished here 🙂

Hey Emmie, i see you up there. 😉

Unless youre gonna post a scan that explains what happened to reality 15104 bearing in mind that:

a)Jean and the handbook states that she severed it from reality

b)You cant affect a future reality by merely changing the past according to marvel canon

Then its probably best to be a grown up and call it quits 👆