Originally posted by -Pr-
I could make a post about the guys Superman has fought that far outweigh Surfer, and make the same kind of claim, but I didn't, for obvious reasons.
Surfer has also dismissed enraged attacks from Hulk. Those alone are more than reasonable as a basis for saying that Surfer can take whatever Superman can dish out, without instantly crumbling to the floor.
Surfer is just being penalised for his huge versatility and the fact that he hardly ever resorts to h2h, where as Superman lacks in options other than rush and punch and so is viewed as being somehow superior in physical stats.
Originally posted by janus77
go ahead, wouldn't be the same thing. I'm claiming that "h2h" wouldn't be an auto loss or even a scenario within which Superman would necessarily dominate. As evidence, I cite some of Surfer's high-end durability and stamina feats, against pure physical assault.Surfer has also dismissed enraged attacks from Hulk. Those alone are more than reasonable as a basis for saying that Surfer can take whatever Superman can dish out, without instantly crumbling to the floor.
Surfer is just being penalised for his huge versatility and the fact that he hardly ever resorts to h2h, where as Superman lacks in options other than rush and punch and so is viewed as being somehow superior in physical stats.
It would, though, as Superman has similar if not superior showings.
He's not being penalised; if anything, you're making assumptions about Superman that are a, incorrect, and b, penalising him.
Originally posted by janus77
Surfer has also withstood prolonged assaults from skyfather+ beings. rematerialised from atoms (against UniLord) and been sliced and diced without any effect.Surfer can take assaults from T&A, Superman isn't doing anything much that Surfer cannot endure and counter.
Basically Surfer outmatches Superman on every metric of measure.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has survived source wall getting destroyed, a sun eater collapsing on him, attacks from COIE Anti-monitor, quantom zealot who were more powerful than 5-d imps, took a blast equivalent to 50 supernovas etc. He's also shattered the body of soulfire darkseid who battled the soul of orion with half the soulfire formula without any damage, koed PC Mon-el in a single slam, took on PC superboy and three PC kryptonians, punch out his own death. He's also sliced in pieces and was still alive and got his heart eaten by joker. We can play high end feats game all day long. Screw all of this, kal sings norrin out of existance.
Originally posted by -Pr-
It would, though, as Superman has similar if not superior showings.He's not being penalised; if anything, you're making assumptions about Superman that are a, incorrect, and b, penalising him.
You're both not getting the point. The point is that Surfer can take that kind of assault, that he has the feats to more than handle the physical barrage, not that Superman doesn't have similar physical feats.
Given Surfer's track record as mentioned above, Surfer can hang with Superman in h2h. And given his superior abilities all around, I see no reason why Surfer would be at a disadvantage in h2h combat.
All it would mean is that Surfer is fighting inefficiently and ignoring instant win methods and methods of causing extreme distress, extremely quickly (blackholes and eyeballs).
Originally posted by janus77
You're both not getting the point. The point is that Surfer can take that kind of assault, that he has the feats to more than handle the physical barrage, not that Superman doesn't have similar physical feats.Given Surfer's track record as mentioned above, Surfer can hang with Superman in h2h. And given his superior abilities all around, I see no reason why Surfer would be at a disadvantage in h2h combat.
All it would mean is that Surfer is fighting inefficiently and ignoring instant win methods and methods of causing extreme distress, extremely quickly (blackholes and eyeballs).
No, you're not getting the point.
You're saying that Surfer can take whatever Superman can dish out, while ignoring the fact that the argument could easily be made for Superman taking whatever Surfer can dish out, especially when it comes to physical damage.
and the whole "superior abilites" thing. It's debatable, sure, but in no way a stone cold fact that Surfer is superior to Superman in most, if not all departments.
Originally posted by -Pr-
No, you're not getting the point.You're saying that Surfer can take whatever Superman can dish out, while ignoring the fact that the argument could easily be made for Superman taking whatever Surfer can dish out, especially when it comes to physical damage.
and the whole "superior abilites" thing. It's debatable, sure, but in no way a stone cold fact that Surfer is superior to Superman in most, if not all departments.
Originally posted by janus77
It doesn't make any difference to my point, whether or not Superman can take the kind of physical punishment Surfer can hand out. I'm not concerned with that, as I was specifically countering the idea that Surfer cannot take a physical h2h encounter with Superman.
Nobody's saying he wouldn't put up a fight, just that he'd be at a disadvantage, which he most likely would be, given Superman's superior skill in hand to hand, and an arguable strength/durability advantage.
It is a cold hard fact that Surfer is superior to Superman in many departments, Superman is simply depicted as always overcoming the odds despite the shortcomings of his powerset. He's like the handyman that somehow manages to fix every problem that arises with skillful applications of a hammer, Philip's head screwdriver, and duct tape, versus Surfer who has an entire Home Depot worth of abilities but isn't always on the job to showcase it.
Originally posted by janus77
You're both not getting the point. The point is that Surfer can take that kind of assault, that he has the feats to more than handle the physical barrage, not that Superman doesn't have similar physical feats.Given Surfer's track record as mentioned above, Surfer can hang with Superman in h2h. And given his superior abilities all around, I see no reason why Surfer would be at a disadvantage in h2h combat.
All it would mean is that Surfer is fighting inefficiently and ignoring instant win methods and methods of causing extreme distress, extremely quickly (blackholes and eyeballs).
Originally posted by MF DELPH
It is a cold hard fact that Surfer is superior to Superman in many departments, Superman is simply depicted as always overcoming the odds despite the shortcomings of his powerset. He's like the handyman that somehow manages to fix every problem that arises with skillful applications of a hammer, Philip's head screwdriver, and duct tape, versus Surfer who has an entire Home Depot worth of abilities but isn't always on the job to showcase it.
I wouldn't say many, or most. Some, yes.
Originally posted by carver9
I think Surfer is more durable imo. In a h2h fight, Surfer is underestimated and has shown that he is as strong as he need to be physically and does well when put in this situation. Surfer can basically do anything.
Coming from somoene who doesn't read Superman, that doesn't mean a whole lot. 😬
PR, I don't understand how you can say Surfer doesn't beat Superman in terms of actual use and breadth of powers - he simply has more of them. In addition, Superman has no way of duplicating them without proficiently combining the few powers he does have, and even then, the results are not as tidy as with Surfer's. My personal opinion would be that Superman would trash Surfer in a physical contest, but Surfer does not need to go that route to effectively neutralize him. Would Superman be able to press the issue? Can Superman make the fight into a physical one before Surfer can use his weaknesses against him? That's the real question in a battle between the two, IMO.
With that said, this is not a Superman vs Surfer debate. I know that to some Superman is the prime example of an internal based powerset (probably the most complete tank there is) and Surfer is the prime example of an external based powerset (being able to effect, manipulate, and completely change almost anything he wants to at will. The world is basically putty in his hands). However, there are other candidates to consider, specifically Thor, who combines the two aspects that the above two excel at.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
[b]Superman -
Probably the most rounded character of all. He has the physical stats, the speed, and the energy expenditure to compete with just about everyone.Weakness:
He lacks the exotic energy manipulation feats that the others on my list have. I don't count his "psychic martial art".Thor -
Biggest combination of physical stats and exotic magical manipulation. He can take a beating, give a beating, or use magic to skip the entire fight.Weakness:
For all his abilities, he lacks the speed to counter or be extremely useful against all opponents.Silver Surfer -
He is the guy with the most exotic abilities of all - he can basically manipulate the Power Cosmic to do anything he wants.Weakness:
He's a better long range fighter than a top tier brute, physical stats being his one weak point.Wildcard:
Green Lantern -
Take your pick of which one, but they do wield the most powerful weapon in the universe. If it's a Green Lantern title, they crap on every single Earth based hero, including Superman. If it's a JLA title, depends on the writer, but they are the most versatile gun they have. I've always been a fan of theirs, so my opinion may be biased, but I feel that the physical representation of their willpower gives them the exotic abilities akin to Surfer and upgrades their physical/speed stats to Superman level.Weakness:
Entire ability is based on energy. That has been exploited in the past. [/B]
Originally posted by -Pr-
Coming from somoene who doesn't read Superman, that doesn't mean a whole lot. 😬
I wasn't just referring to Superman when I was talking about durability. I think Surfer is the most durable Herald imo. I never said Surfer would beat Superman in h2h but I do think Surfer hand skills is underated.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
PR, I don't understand how you can say Surfer doesn't beat Superman in terms of actual use and breadth of powers - he simply has more of them. In addition, Superman has no way of duplicating them without proficiently combining the few powers he does have, and even then, the results are not as tidy as with Surfer's.
i never said he didn't do that, though.
Originally posted by carver9
I wasn't just referring to Superman when I was talking about durability. I think Surfer is the most durable Herald imo. I never said Surfer would beat Superman in h2h but I do think Surfer hand skills is underated.
Thinking he's as skilled as Superman would be underrating Superman, though.
A thing about versatility is there's pure versatility, and versatility as it involves the tactical situation.
Like, let's say you have an energy user. Can do 20 different things with their energy powers. They can blast, redirect, make shields, etc. etc.. Still screwed against an energy absorber, which isn't a rare thing to face.
Then you have someone who can do two things. They can blast, and they're strong. They can arguably handle a wider range of foes than the first one, because someone who's great against energy, they can bash in physically, and someone who's great against physical, they can blast.
Overall, the second is often better off in combat.
So it's not purely a matter of just who has the most options, but how different those options are.
Superman has a couple categories of attacks (physical, energy, and freezing), but he can't do all that much in each. Still, he has enough categories that he's rather well-rounded.
Wonder Woman has a large number of categories of abilities too. Most of them aren't flexible (I.e. the tiara can only cut and isn't very flexible. The bracers shield is only right in front of her. The lasso's mental effects primarily just work when someone is bound, but overall it's the most versatile. The bracer's lightning is short ranged), but in terms of number of categories, she has physical, magic-cutting, energy, and mental, rather a lot. So her versatility is pretty good too, more than I think people give her credit for.
Some people have a lot of powers that mostly just boil down to alternate ways of blasting someone, or their versatility mostly comes up in non-combat ways.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i never said he didn't do that, though.Thinking he's as skilled as Superman would be underrating Superman, though.
Naah, he isn't close to being as skilled as Superman and in a fist cuff...Supes will beat Surfer. What I disagree with is once the fight gets up close and personal, Surfer is done. I disagree with that. I think Surfer can hold his own for an amount of time and use his versatility to put distance between him and Supes again.
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, he isn't close to being as skilled as Superman and in a fist cuff...Supes will beat Surfer. What I disagree with is once the fight gets up close and personal, Surfer is done. I disagree with that. I think Surfer can hold his own for an amount of time and use his versatility to put distance between him and Supes again.
Well yeah, nobody was saying otherwise.