Top Tier/Herald Class: Who is the #1 p4p?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Versatility =/= power, though, and he's only relatively un-versatile. It's not as if it's hindered him much before.

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Also, lol @ the definition of trans for Hulk. Superman has steamrolled teams of heralds (including the JLA), but we don't put him at trans level do we? No.

^Winning=/=power. Flash would win against thor but he isn't more powerful. IMO superman edges out thor and get edged out by surfer. Genis is trans IMO.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree, versatility =/= power. However, all of the people I mentioned have both power and versatility in excess. Superman is very limited compared to them. Most of them could easily win through energy manipulation. It is not like compared to characters like Thor and SS Superman has a big power edge any way.

I disagree, but that's me.

Originally posted by carver9
It shouldn't be laughable since people like HP Doomsday is a high trans and Current Hulk is FAR stronger than him. The only thing Hulk is missing is versatility and that shouldn't be something that should be used to put someone in a certain tier.

That's the thing about HP DD, he's pretty much whatever he has to be at the moment. If he needs to be tough enough to withstand Omega beams, he will be, if he needs to grab an intangible energy being and kill him, he will. If he needs to match hulk blow for blow, he'll do that too. It's not dynamic power or poor writing, or even PIS, it's simply the character's power. He adapts. So that's why he's in the trans-tier, because he can match whatever opponent that comes his way barring ridiculous circumstances.

In fact, the only way to consistently (lol) kill the character is with entropy-- arguably the most destructive form of energy in the DC universe. This happened twice. Once in HP, when the only way to kill him was to send him to the beginning of time, seconds before the big bang and let entropy incinerate him, the second was done by Imperiex, the big bang and entropy incarnate who one-shotted him with a blast capable of killing him.

The point is that he has gone through all of these things under his own power. He busts teams consistently (even before HP), adapts to anything, and has only been truly 'killed' by the big bang itself. When compared with HP DD, the hulk simply doesn't have consistent feats like this. HP DD does, and quite frankly, thats why he's in the trans-tier.

So it isn't his speed, strength, durability, or versatility. It's all of those put together on a level that allows him to do things that other heralds are not capable of efficiently defending against or even performing themselves. In other words, his mid-range feats make him herald+, which is another way of saying trans.... Hulk busted a planet with a lot of powerful players on it, thor cracked exitar's dome, and superman sang reality back to normal-- but they're all heralds, because these feats are not the 'norm' for them. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Originally posted by abhilegend
^Winning=/=power. Flash would win against thor but he isn't more powerful. IMO superman edges out thor and get edged out by surfer. Genis is trans IMO.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would not object to having Genis as trans. He is a good example of someone who is simply beyond the heralds. I can't think of a single high herald who could defeat him.

I completely agree. I didn't know that he wasn't on the trans list.

Originally posted by Sirius77
That's the thing about HP DD, he's pretty much whatever he has to be at the moment. If he needs to be tough enough to withstand Omega beams, he will be, if he needs to grab an intangible energy being and kill him, he will. If he needs to match hulk blow for blow, he'll do that too. It's not dynamic power or poor writing, or even PIS, it's simply the character's power. He adapts. So that's why he's in the trans-tier, because he can match whatever opponent that comes his way barring ridiculous circumstances.

In fact, the only way to consistently (lol) kill the character is with entropy-- arguably the most destructive form of energy in the DC universe. This happened twice. Once in HP, when the only way to kill him was to send him to the beginning of time, seconds before the big bang and let entropy incinerate him, the second was done by Imperiex, the big bang and entropy incarnate who one-shotted him with a blast capable of killing him.

The point is that he has gone through all of these things under his own power. He busts teams consistently (even before HP), adapts to anything, and has only been truly 'killed' by the big bang itself. When compared with HP DD, the hulk simply doesn't have consistent feats like this. HP DD does, and quite frankly, thats why he's in the trans-tier.

So it isn't his speed, strength, durability, or versatility. It's all of those put together on a level that allows him to do things that other heralds are not capable of efficiently defending against or even performing themselves. In other words, his mid-range feats make him herald+, which is another way of saying trans.... Hulk busted a planet with a lot of powerful players on it, thor cracked exitar's dome, and superman sang reality back to normal-- but they're all heralds, because these feats are not the 'norm' for them. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Why didnt Doomsday bypass a blast from Imperiex that turned him to a skeleton or prevent KC Superman and main stream Superman from one shotting him?

Originally posted by Sirius77
I completely agree. I didn't know that he wasn't on the trans list.

By the way, I would put Thor above any herald.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Insane Genis I'd probably place higher..

Originally posted by carver9
Why didnt Doomsday bypass a blast from Imperiex that turned him to a skeleton or prevent KC Superman and main stream Superman from one shotting him?

DD jumped right at him. He wasn't trying to avoid anything. He just wanted to kill Imperiex, but Imperiex was too much. Also, DD couldn't fly at that point. How would he have avoided it lol?

Do you mean in IC? Probably because that wasn't the same DD. As I recall, he's been cloned several times, and tbh I don't even know how why he appeared in the story. It had nothing to do with the plot, it seemed to be for dramatic effect. Anyway, I never stated that he was unable to be hit, just "Not that speed is the determining factor. DD is pretty fast though."

Originally posted by King Kandy
You know he got a power upgrade in his later incarnations.

I actually bought the tpb up to about vol. 3, and then stopped because they were out for some reason. That was years ago though lol. Is the storyline as good as the previous arc?

Originally posted by Sirius77
I actually bought the tpb up to about vol. 3, and then stopped because they were out for some reason. That was years ago though lol. Is the storyline as good as the previous arc?

Later on, in Thunderbolts, he gets a genuine upgrade, changing to the Photon incarnation. He drew power from the beginning and ends of time, so much in fact that his existence was threatening the space-time continuum, and he had to be killed. This version is actually even stronger than insane Genis, but he again consciously limited himself.

Once, there was a story where Genis merged with a future self, and had full power and complete control. He killed an entire alien army simply by willing it, and they fell into an illusion of their death.

Originally posted by King Kandy
In volume three he goes insane due to his cosmic awareness overwhelming him. He never got upgraded per se, he just decided that ethics did not apply to him and abandoned all restraint and therefore, used his powers to do things that would have previously been unthinkable for him. Later, he was made to regain sanity. Again he still has the same level of power and skill he had as insane Genis, he consciously restrains himself and purposely does not use all of the powers he could.

Later on, in Thunderbolts, he gets a genuine upgrade, changing to the Photon incarnation. He drew power from the beginning and ends of time, so much in fact that his existence was threatening the space-time continuum, and he had to be killed. This version is actually even stronger than insane Genis, but he again consciously limited himself.

Once, there was a story where Genis merged with a future self, and had full power and complete control. He killed an entire alien army simply by willing it, and they fell into an illusion of their death.

Nice. That sounds interesting, I never really got into thunderbolts, but the storyline seems interesting. I think I might start reading that. So is the future-self instance in vol 4?

Originally posted by Sirius77
He bypassed the Olympian's 'divine grace and trounced him, when even WW couldn't.

WW did it too (and through similar method- high speed sweeping attacks), but yea, it's still good speed showing.

Originally posted by Sirius77
Nice. That sounds interesting, I never really got into thunderbolts, but the storyline seems interesting. I think I might start reading that. So is the future-self instance in vol 4?

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, I would put Thor above any herald.

Why would you put him above Surfer?

Surfer has the power to blow up planets. Does Thor has more power than that?
Surfer is fast. Is Thor faster?
Surfer is very versatile. Is Thor more versatile?
Surfer is very durable. Is Thor more durable?

Originally posted by h1a8
Why would you put him above Surfer?

Surfer has the power to blow up planets. Does Thor has more power than that?
Surfer is fast. Is Thor faster?
Surfer is very versatile. Is Thor more versatile?
Surfer is very durable. Is Thor more durable?

Good point. Looking at fts of Surfer liiiiiikkke...

Blowing up planets.

Shooting blasts so powerful that it created a Black Hole that was light years in width.

Turning into snow

Creating multiple of clones with his powers.

Super strength

Following a light trail to its designation.

Creating life

Letting everyone on Earth see from his eyes while he roamed through space (it was actually Mary J. With his powers.).

Turning intangible

Taking People powers away from them

Cosmic awareness

Giving people powers

Surfer can basically do anything.

I would put him as the prime Herald and people tend to underate Surfer physical stats, he can physically hang with the big guys as well and I would say he is the fastest out of all of them imo.

Originally posted by Stoic
Strange has typical human reaction speeds, Gladiator is so far above human that it's unreal. Do you think that you may be selling this team short with everything considered?

His shield reaction speed is up to par and after it's up, game over. You're not going to beat Doc by only brawling.

/.