Abraxas vs Dream of The Endless

Originally posted by zopzop
But he'd have to be omniscient to use the Nullifier in the way that he did. The whole point of the Nullifier is to have complete understanding of your intended victim/target for it to function as you want it too. For Reed to undo the multiversal damage Abraxas did requires omniscience.

Then there's the fact that Reed owned the LT and a bunch of other cosmics.

Then there's the fact that the Rogue Celestials were rampaging in "Reed Space" and were killing off IG (they ONE SHOTTED TWO Infinity Gauntlet Reeds) users and crushing Starbrand Reeds. Then Reed Richards pulls out a GUN FROM HIS CLOSET and offs one of the Rogue Celestials and they flee!

To recap : repairing multiversal wide damage with the UN (that requires complete understanding of the intended target), owning the second in command of creation (the LT) and his friends, owning the Rogue Celestials that were OFFING IG USERS. Reed >>>>>all!
😉

ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?

and quanch m'man, i'm sure your post above had something to do with me but.....i didn't bother reading it. 🙂 i had some fun at your expense but as happens with toys they get boring and predictable and outgrown. continue to troll if you must, continue to add....less than nothing to any thread you haunt. it's in your nature. heh and nice shot at galan btw. way to man up and address him via someone else's post. you really are as great as you claim. 👆

Originally posted by zopzop

Back on topic, Mr. M, I find it laughable that some posters on this
thread believe ONE aspect out of the multitudes that make up the
universe (Dream) would fare better against Abraxas than the
EMBODIMENT of the freaking Multiverse and EVERYTHING in it (Mult-
Eternity).

Multi-Eternity was powerless against Abraxas yet Dream would beat him?

Anyway, Abraxas was able to manipulate mighty Franklin's dreams effortlessly.

Mind you, Abraxas is NOT at all in 616 at this point,
so he's performing this feat from UniverseS away.

We know this is really him cause he has half of Uatu's emblem,
which he also took from Uatu while also wiping his memory
and then comatose his ass.

Again, he was not in 616 at this point.

So basically he performed this incredible feat from outside 616,
which means his ability to affect targets across Universes wasn't
isolated to humans like Reed, but even a cosmic like Uatu the Watcher.

Although I still think it's very impressive he was able to
simultaneously kill off all of Reed's alternates across the Omniverse
while enjoying 616 Reed himself die slowly.

That aside, all the other Concepts are beneath Abraxas.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?

I believe it was in an issue of Quasar (where Thanos gives him the Nullifier to get rid of Magus and Quasar goes off to that library planet Rus to research the UN). And again in an issue of the Fantastic Four. I'll have to find the scans.

^^ 👆 .. and other situations to strengthen that truth.

Originally posted by leonidas

where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total
understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you
intend?

... the kid is right on this one.

Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was in an issue of Quasar (where Thanos gives him the Nullifier to get rid of Magus and Quasar goes off to that library planet Rus to research the UN). And again in an issue of the Fantastic Four. I'll have to find the scans.

i await eagerly. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up Leo, ....

... the kid is right on this one.

yo,

he says he has the proof so i wait patiently......

(though i know what he's planning on showing..... 🙂 )

Originally posted by leonidas
yo,

he says he has the proof so i wait patiently......

(though i know what he's planning on showing..... 🙂 )

Quasar's (limited) understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/quasar.jpg/

Korvac's (alt reality) true understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/korvacnullify.jpg/

The above incident confirmed in Korvac's handbook entry :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/confirmedf.jpg/

I'm trying to remember the FF issue where it confirmed that this is how it works (total understanding of the subject you wish to Nullify).

PS I'd use thumbnails but Imageshack is acting up.

Originally posted by zopzop
Quasar's (limited) understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/quasar.jpg/

Korvac's (alt reality) true understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/korvacnullify.jpg/

The above incident confirmed in Korvac's handbook entry :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/confirmedf.jpg/

I'm trying to remember the FF issue where it confirmed that this is how it works (total understanding of the subject you wish to Nullify).

PS I'd use thumbnails but Imageshack is acting up.

a what if? 😐

after some have been discussing the unique (allegedly) nature of the "616" version of the un, you try and use a what if for some proof?

i'll keep waiting.

Originally posted by leonidas
a what if? 😐

after some have been discussing the unique (allegedly) nature of the "616" version of the un, you try and use a what if for some proof?

i'll keep waiting.

The incident was confirmed in his handbook entry. He used his cosmic awareness to completely understand the universe and how it works, once he had that total understanding he fired off the UN and destroyed the universe.

And supposedly the 616 version is more powerful than that. Reed used it to undo MULTIVERSAL wide damage caused by Abraxas. Korvac needed cosmic awareness to achieve his goals for a single universe, Reed did it on a multiversal scale.

In fact what Reed did required more skill and understanding than what Korvac did. Korvac just wanted to destroy his entire universe (and used his cosmic awareness to study it down to the most minute detail), Reed wanted to repair the freaking multiverse and used nothing but his own 'regular old human' mind to get it done.

so wait, your saying is that you actually think reed somehow did exactly what korvac did--he envisioned the entire multiverse, every aspect of it without any cosmic awareness or anything--and that he was required to do so because korvac focused on the universe in a what if? all quasar says is the target needs to be focused on without extraneous thought (and quasar returned from being nullified you kow, right...?). and yet you somehow want me to believe that reed is TRULY OMNISCIENT?

your claim is soooooooooooooooooooooo ludicrous i don't know where to begin with it zop. he's omniscient but he can't what--cure ben? cure johnny when he was unable to control his flame???

i am truly astounded that you want to continue this. had someone else used a what if (which is AGAINST forum rules for a reason) you'd be all over them for it. a what if to support that reed is omnisicent. THAT is what you're telling me? you seriously gotta be kidding.

Once Abraxas dreams, Morpheus will just dream him away. Like the endless, he is a multiverse level being or concept. He is one of the building blocks of creation. Morpheous can even chit chat with non living things like planets, stars, galaxies, etc etc. Plus Dream will just manifest itself again.

Originally posted by zopzop
Abraxas destroys him. He had the ultimate concept, Multi-Eternity, in fear and begging for assistance. Multi-Eternity embodies the WHOLE Multiverse. Dream is out of his league here.

Originally posted by lilshogun

Once Abraxas dreams, Morpheus will just dream him away.

Originally posted by lilshogun

Like the endless, he is a multiverse level being or concept.

He is one of the building blocks of creation.

He is the storm that smashes through that building of blocks.

Originally posted by lilshogun

Morpheous can even chit chat with non living things like planets, stars, galaxies, etc etc.

Originally posted by lilshogun

Plus Dream will just manifest itself again.

Originally posted by leonidas
so wait, your saying is that you actually think reed somehow did exactly what korvac did--he envisioned the entire multiverse, every aspect of it without any cosmic awareness or anything--and that he was required to do so because korvac focused on the universe in a what if? all quasar says is the target needs to be focused on without extraneous thought (and quasar returned from being nullified you kow, right...?). and yet you somehow want me to believe that reed is TRULY OMNISCIENT?

your claim is soooooooooooooooooooooo ludicrous i don't know where to begin with it zop. he's omniscient but he can't what--cure ben? cure johnny when he was unable to control his flame???

i am truly astounded that you want to continue this. had someone else used a what if (which is AGAINST forum rules for a reason) you'd be all over them for it. a what if to support that reed is omnisicent. THAT is what you're telling me? you seriously gotta be kidding.

Quasar, as shown in that very arc, had a limited understanding of how the UN truly functions. Even Epoch needed more time to research it. And you realize that Quasar came back because of the residual power of the Starbrand that he had right?

The "What If" was confirmed in the characters handbook entry. How many times does that happen? Here is another relevant scan from that issue :

Korvac in Captain America's mind : "Concentrate on your enemy, visualize every aspect of him. When your consciousness is filled with the concept of him and him alone press the Nullifier"

The fact remains, Reed managed to do, using nothing but his own "regular old human' intellect what it took Korvac and his cosmic awareness/omniscience to do.

as we know i don't 'debate' i admire the experts here my peers always shine

just pointing out as a 44 year old 'nerd' understand the concept of dream

powerful, don't count out because we don't realize his power

carry on friends

🙂

Originally posted by zopzop
Quasar, as shown in that very arc, had a limited understanding of how the UN truly functions. Even Epoch needed more time to research it. And you realize that Quasar came back because of the residual power of the Starbrand that he had right?

The "What If" was confirmed in the characters handbook entry. How many times does that happen? Here is another relevant scan from that issue :

Korvac in Captain America's mind : "Concentrate on your enemy, visualize every aspect of him. When your consciousness is filled with the concept of him and him alone press the Nullifier"

The fact remains, Reed managed to do, using nothing but his own "regular old human' intellect what it took Korvac and his cosmic awareness/omniscience to do.

i can't really get over this. you're saying reed is TRULY omniscient. and moreover, you're using feats from a NON-616 reed and a WHAT IF to support your stance??? 😐

okay, so, other than your (illegal) what if "support", what proof do you have? because (the non-616 reed) temporarily displaced lt with weapon he created? oh, and if we're using that what if it's not much of a feat for alternate reed since his ultimate attack could only conjure a supernova..... if he were actually omniscient, wouldn't he have been able to come up with a way to KILL lt for good? oh, wait, is the non-616 omniscient too? i assumed since you used him to support OUR reed being omnniscient.... or couldn't ONE of them, you know, cure ben? or cure banner? or do....any of the million other things he doesn't know how to do!

i utterly DEFY you to open up any ff book aside from this un nonsense, and show me PROOF that reed is OMNISCIENT. do you know what that word even means? or are you claiming that in this one instance he miraculously BECAME omniscient? somehow. even though quasar says you really only need to FOCUS on the target (just SLIGHTLY different from requiring omniscience......) maybe that's it because he certainly/absolutely/positively/1000% is NOT omniscient all the time.

your stance makes absolutely ZERO sense and is without a doubt the most ludicrous claim i've ever heard made on the forum. so.... congrats. 🙂

So let me see here about what I said about the Galactus head, Abraxas kills another universe's Galactus, and sends his skull to Earth-616, he then uses the skull as a homing beacon. This causes a disturbance in the space-time continuum, allowing people from other universes to come through the gap left by the head, including another Nova. This also seems to be controlled by Abraxas who is able to control who is coming in and out of the hole left by the head. The Law Enforcement Squad is there one second and gone the next with Abraxas writing "I am coming", Franklin wakes up sensing Abraxas is nearer.

Then and before that Eternity (with the help of Captain Universe) shows the FF who and what Abraxas is. When the Fantastic Four seeks the counsel of the Watcher, they find that he has forgotten who he was, and then he becomes comatose. He seems to have gotten mixed up and confused because space and time are messed up and the more destruction and havok in the 616 universe he becomes comatose. Is it not Uatu's job to keep a record of everything happening?? If all this is messed up how can he possibly do this?

😕

Originally posted by leonidas
i can't really get over this. you're saying reed is TRULY omniscient. and moreover, you're using feats from a NON-616 reed and a WHAT IF to support your stance??? 😐

okay, so, other than your (illegal) what if "support", what proof do you have? because (the non-616 reed) temporarily displaced lt with weapon he created? oh, and if we're using that what if it's not much of a feat for alternate reed since his ultimate attack could only conjure a supernova..... if he were actually omniscient, wouldn't he have been able to come up with a way to KILL lt for good? oh, wait, is the non-616 omniscient too? i assumed since you used him to support OUR reed being omnniscient.... or couldn't ONE of them, you know, cure ben? or cure banner? or do....any of the million other things he doesn't know how to do!

How is it illegal if it's confirmed in his official handbook entry? How many times has a "What if" been confirmed in a characters official bio? Korvac needed cosmic awareness to accomplish something Reed did using nothing but his own intellect.

Since there is only ONE LT throughout the multiverse his What if showings are valid. And I don't believe the displacement was temporary. The weapon was created to get rid of Galactus and the thread he posed to Earth. What would be the point of a temporary BFR?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/reedgun.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/reedgun2.jpg/

i utterly DEFY you to open up any ff book aside from this un nonsense, and show me PROOF that reed is OMNISCIENT. do you know what that word even means? or are you claiming that in this one instance he miraculously BECAME omniscient? somehow. even though quasar says you really only need to FOCUS on the target (just SLIGHTLY different from requiring omniscience......) maybe that's it because he certainly/absolutely/positively/1000% is NOT omniscient all the time.

your stance makes absolutely ZERO sense and is without a doubt the most ludicrous claim i've ever heard made on the forum. so.... congrats. 🙂

Quasar had little to no understanding on the true function of the UN. That entire arc made it plain. Even his mentor, Epoch, needed more time to research the UN.

Reed has owned the LT, Reed has used the UN to repair multiversal wide damage, Reed pulled out a weapon that he made himself that caused Rogue Celestials to retreat (these guys were one shotting IG users and laughing off the power of the Starbrand).

Originally posted by zopzop

Since there is only ONE LT throughout the multiverse his What if showings are valid. And I don't believe the displacement was temporary. The weapon was created to get rid of Galactus and the thread he posed to Earth. What would be the point of a temporary BFR?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/reedgun.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/reedgun2.jpg/

Originally posted by Galan007
Zop, you do realize this feat occurred in the MC2 universe, right? It doesn't apply to 616 Reed in the slightest.

i...... don't know what else to say. it seems mr m also supported zop's 'theory' that reed is omniscient.

the hell is happening around here?? 😑

zop, i have no clue how many what if occurences are listed in handbooks. could be dozens for all i know. but............... IT DOESN'T MATTER. handbook evidence is notoriously weak to begin with and WHAT IFs ARE ILLEGAL ON THE FORUM. are you kidding? so lt's biggest attack IS a supernova? dude, i like you. you even recently taught me something i hadn't known before. but step away from this omniscient thing. seriously. it's beyond ridiculous into the purely assinine.

using an alternate reed's feat with support from a what if to confirm that 616 reed is omniscient? that could CERTAINLY warrant a warning from a mod if one of them happened along to read this disasterously poor reasoning. 😬

chock it up to booze or.....something WAY stronger and just leave it be. hell, even if you DID find proof that someone had to know 'everything' about a target to use the un properly--you'd STILL look ridiculous with your claim. it would be simply chalked up to PIS, or some effect of the un, but even if you found the proof you 😐

I'd argue it very much depends on where the fight takes place...

In the Dreaming, Morpheus wins hands down.

In the outside, it's much more even.