Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
I'd argue it very much depends on where the fight takes place...In the Dreaming, Morpheus wins hands down.
In the outside, it's much more even.
i can see morpheus winning in dream as well. walking into frank's dream, when he isn't using any powers, really isn't much proof at all that abraxas could beat morpheus in the dream world.
Originally posted by leonidas
i can see morpheus winning in dream as well. walking into frank's dream, when he isn't using any powers, really isn't much proof at all that abraxas could beat morpheus in the dream world.
The dream world is The Dreaming, when sentient things dream that's where their conciousness exists.
The fact that Morpheus is essentially the entire realm is the reason why he's basically omnipotent there.
Originally posted by leonidasConcession accepted. We both knew it was coming down to this.
ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?and quanch m'man, i'm sure your post above had something to do with me but.....i didn't bother reading it. 🙂 i had some fun at your expense but as happens with toys they get boring and predictable and outgrown. continue to troll if you must, continue to add....less than nothing to any thread you haunt. it's in your nature. heh and nice shot at galan btw. way to man up and address him via someone else's post. you really are as great as you claim. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Zop, you do realize this feat occurred in the MC2 universe, right? It doesn't apply to 616 Reed in the slightest.
The feat is valid because there's only ONE LT throughout the multiverse. Reed Richards, even if it's the MC2 one, defeated the LT and a host of other cosmics. In all Marvel that's only occurred like twice : Thanos with the HotU and the Protege.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The dream world is The Dreaming, when sentient things dream that's where their conciousness exists.The fact that Morpheus is essentially the entire realm is the reason why he's basically omnipotent there.
And what happens when you wipe out all sentient beings in the universe (along with the universe and everything in it)?
Originally posted by leonidas
i...... don't know what else to say. it seems mr m also supported zop's 'theory' that reed is omniscient.the hell is happening around here?? 😑
zop, i have no clue how many what if occurences are listed in handbooks. could be dozens for all i know. but............... IT DOESN'T MATTER. handbook evidence is notoriously weak to begin with and WHAT IFs ARE ILLEGAL ON THE FORUM. are you kidding? so lt's biggest attack IS a supernova? dude, i like you. you even recently taught me something i hadn't known before. but step away from this omniscient thing. seriously. it's beyond ridiculous into the purely assinine.
using an alternate reed's feat with support from a what if to confirm that 616 reed is omniscient? that could CERTAINLY warrant a warning from a mod if one of them happened along to read this disasterously poor reasoning. 😬
chock it up to booze or.....something WAY stronger and just leave it be. hell, even if you DID find proof that someone had to know 'everything' about a target to use the un properly--you'd STILL look ridiculous with your claim. it would be simply chalked up to PIS, or some effect of the un, but even if you found the proof you 😐
No I was using the alt universe feats for Reed because it shows that Reed Richards, even an alt universe one, did what only occurred twice in all Marvel history. He beat the LT (along with other cosmics).
The omniscient thing comes into play in how he used the UN to undo multiversal wide damage. I even provided scans showing why he'd basically have to be omniscient to have pulled that feat off. The resetting of reality was done by 616 Reed.
Then there's the time he whipped out a gun from his closet and OWNED Rogue Celestials that were rampaging in the Council of Reeds pocket universe. These Rogue Celestials ONE SHOTTED TWO IG users and were no selling attacks from a Reed with the power of the Starbrand! This was 616 Reed too.
Mr. Master isn't agreeing with me in Reed LITERALLY being omniscient but he's laughing at the whole incident (of the resetting of the multivese by Reed using the UN) because there's no way a human being should have been able to do what he did in that issue.
For all the talk on how Reed used the UN so well, only means he has extensive knowledge on how Marvel's Multiverse works at least.
http://imageshack.us/f/137/22584438ke1.jpg/
Reed Richards of 616 even has a scanner that tells if a dead Galactus skull is from 616 or from an alternate reality.I remember Reed stating, " In order to realign all that is, we needed to end all that was" after he used the UN on Abraxas.That alone makes me think that he knows how Marvel's Multiverse works.That also mean he knows how to use the UN properly.
I still say Abraxas wins this.
I'm seeing some horrible logic in this thread. Really, really horrible. Its origins can be traced back to Mr Masters hyping of this Abraxas character and unfortunately too many people swallowed his sh*t without any analysis of the story arc themselves. 🙄
I think i may have to read the story arc again so im fully equipped to come back and resolve this predicament. 😬
I'm coming y'all! 😱
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'm seeing some horrible logic in this thread. Really, really horrible. Its origins can be traced back to Mr Masters hyping of this Abraxas character and unfortunately too many people swallowed his sh*t without any analysis of the story arc themselves. 🙄I think i may have to read the story arc again so im fully equipped to come back and resolve this predicament. 😬
I'm coming y'all! 😱
GS, Mr. M wasn't BSing. Even if, for some reason, you don't put much weight in the fact that the Embodiment of the Multiverse being powerless to stop Abraxas is a sign of Abraxas' power, you can't ignore what happened between him and Franklin Richards.
Franklin didn't dare attack Abraxas directly and was in fear of him. You have Rogue Celestials (that were one shotting IG users and brushing off attacks from a Starbrand wielder) in panic of Franklin calling him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". All that power and he feared the "Dark Man".
I can't see Abraxas losing this fight (vs Dream).
Originally posted by zopzop
Then there's the time he whipped out a gun from his closet and OWNED Rogue Celestials that were rampaging in the Council of Reeds pocket universe. These Rogue Celestials ONE SHOTTED TWO IG users and were no selling attacks from a Reed with the power of the Starbrand! This was 616 Reed too.
why would he need a gun when sue has already demolished EXITAR.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/f43.jpg
and doom could do the same thing. with prep strange has held his own and beaten some big guys. who cares? reed's brain is a pis machine. everyone knows that.
NO ONE thinks he's omniscient. because he is manifestly NOT.
Mr. Master isn't agreeing with me in Reed LITERALLY being omniscient but he's laughing at the whole incident (of the resetting of the multivese by Reed using the UN) because there's no way a human being should have been able to do what he did in that issue.
a human with an understanding of how things work DID do it. reed was SHOWN IN THAT ARC how the multiverse was set up. he used the knowledge and did what he did. sure it's impressive but it in no way at all means he was omniscient. at all.
i fall on gs and galan's side of the abraxas issue. i have never been overly impressed with him as i've always felt his feats were vague and ill-defined in that arc and for all the narration and bios he never really did anything in that arc.
Originally posted by zopzop
GS, Mr. M wasn't BSing. Even if, for some reason, you don't put much weight in the fact that the Embodiment of the Multiverse being powerless to stop Abraxas is a sign of Abraxas' power, you can't ignore what happened between him and Franklin Richards.Franklin didn't dare attack Abraxas directly and was in fear of him. You have Rogue Celestials (that were one shotting IG users and brushing off attacks from a Starbrand wielder) in panic of Franklin calling him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". All that power and he feared the "Dark Man".
I can't see Abraxas losing this fight (vs Dream).
Nah i understand why youre saying what you are, but think about Franklin as a whole character as opposed to just his power set when making the assessment.
Franklins what. about 7 or 8, hes not a very experienced fighter, hes not experienced in the use of his powers because for the majority of his life they have been suppressed, most of the great stuff he has done has been subconsciously. As a 7 or 8 year old kid, running away from some nightmare figure that was haunting you in your dreams is understandable. That instance cant then be used as an indicator for Abraxas' power.
If it was an experienced, battle ready Franklin in full command of his power fighting Abraxas, losing and running away, then your point would be solid. However in this case when you take all points into consideration, a child running away from a boogeyman is not good enough evidence to make the point youre trying to. Im a grown man, however i hate spiders, they spark an irrational fear in me and i will evacuate a house if a big one comes near me, thats in spite of me being very physically capable of squashing it like its nothing. So think about the character, not just his powerset.
As for Eternity, i mentioned the Chaos War incident for a reason. The top tiers not getting involved despite a threat to themselves is standard. It would make for a boring story if they stomped a threat in two panels. Again, if Eternity had faced off against Abraxas and lost or made a comment pertaining to his power being dwarfed by Abraxas' then your point would be solid, but in Marvel there is a precedence for the top tiers to leave the heroes to do the work and save the day because it is them that we buy comic books to read about 🙂
Originally posted by zopzop
And what happens when you wipe out all sentient beings in the universe (along with the universe and everything in it)?
You'd need to wipe out every single thinking thing that could possibly Dream (in the Vertigoverse, this includes stars, planets, gods etc) in the entirity of creation to Destroy Dream that way.
But considering the fight is just Abraxas vs Dream, he can't leave the battle to kill an unknown number of universes, especially with Dream actively trying to stop him...
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah i understand why youre saying what you are, but think about Franklin as a whole character as opposed to just his power set when making the assessment.Franklins what. about 7 or 8, hes not a very experienced fighter, hes not experienced in the use of his powers because for the majority of his life they have been suppressed, most of the great stuff he has done has been subconsciously. As a 7 or 8 year old kid, running away from some nightmare figure that was haunting you in your dreams is understandable. That instance cant then be used as an indicator for Abraxas' power.
If it was an experienced, battle ready Franklin in full command of his power fighting Abraxas, losing and running away, then your point would be solid. However in this case when you take all points into consideration, a child running away from a boogeyman is not good enough evidence to make the point youre trying to. Im a grown man, however i hate spiders, they spark an irrational fear in me and i will evacuate a house if a big one comes near me, thats in spite of me being very physically capable of squashing it like its nothing. So think about the character, not just his powerset.
As for Eternity, i mentioned the Chaos War incident for a reason. The top tiers not getting involved despite a threat to themselves is standard. It would make for a boring story if they stomped a threat in two panels. Again, if Eternity had faced off against Abraxas and lost or made a comment pertaining to his power being dwarfed by Abraxas' then your point would be solid, but in Marvel there is a precedence for the top tiers to leave the heroes to do the work and save the day because it is them that we buy comic books to read about 🙂
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
You'd need to wipe out every single thinking thing that could possibly Dream (in the Vertigoverse, this includes stars, planets, gods etc) in the entirity of creation to Destroy Dream that way.
How on Earth do you see ONE ASPECT of the universe, Dream, doing better than the conceptual being representing the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT. Does that make ANY sense?
But considering the fight is just Abraxas vs Dream, he can't leave the battle to kill an unknown number of universes, especially with Dream actively trying to stop him...
Dream? "Stopping" Abraxas from doing ANYTHING?! 😆
Originally posted by zopzop
What do you mean, "the entirety of creation"? You trying to tell me the Endless are multiversal entities? Cause I call BS on that.How on Earth do you see ONE ASPECT of the universe, Dream, doing better than the conceptual being representing the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT. Does that make ANY sense?
Dream? "Stopping" Abraxas from doing ANYTHING?! 😆 [/B]
