Abraxas vs Dream of The Endless

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Dream is Multiversal, you see this in how he's got authority in ANY universe (For instance he pretty much shows that Boss Smiley, the local god of a whole universe, that he can do nothing to him)

Add to the fact he's called the mainstream DCU a "little universe" and it was implied that through Dreams, the entirity of creation was nullified and rebuilt so that the "previous" creation never even existed.

Good points, but when did he say mainstream DCU a little universe?

^After daniel caught starro on a chain, he said "your debt to that little universe is repaid, morpheus".

Ah, thanks, abhil.

Morpheus.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's false good friend.

How could a singular Universe be comprised of entire Universes
with pasts, present, and futures?

Leo, you're scarring me.

who exactly is it that says eternity is limited to being a single universe....? that dr strange scan (before any mention of a multi eternity) shows clear as day that eternity (616) is comprised of universeS, dimensionS, etc.....

That's cool, and I always respect your opinion friend ...

... but I completely disagree,
not with everything you've posted here,
but with the logic your pasting together.

meh. your perogative.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That,
and considering I think their tagging this bad boy as something lesser:

"Multi" Eternity was the term Captain Universe dubbed "All of Eternity"
or Eternity's "Totality"
which is a consciousness that spans everything that ever was, is
or ever will be on the Marvel side concerning Space-Time (Reality)
and everything in-between.

Eternity/Infinity has always been one central Universe that
kills/births alternate/parallel realities resembling the prime one. (616)

It began with one Universe (616)
and it's been expanding ever since into endless alternatives of 616.

In the end, it's still just one big ass Universe. Labeled the Omniverse.

.............................................................................................

Dormammu gets ready to travel to Eternity's core, which is inside the 616 reality:

"All of [B]Eternity's power will be mine ...
I go now into the mystery of Eternity ...
the power of Creation itself"

.............................................................................................

He transcends from the Dimension of Manifestations, into the 616 Reality.

What is the power of 616 Eternity/Infinity?

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"

.............................................................................................

Is this a surprise?

not at all.

.....................................................................................................

616 Reality/Eternity = the foundation of the Marvel Omniverse!

.....................................................................................................

This is why this can happen:

.....................................................................................................

Uatu and the Watchers realized
that nanoseconds after the 616 Reality dies,
the Omniverse will die:

"We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.

And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "

..................................................................................

Dr Stange is confused with Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.

Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.

Everything there is, will End.

Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"

..................................................................................

Is this a fluke? Not at all folks.

..................................................................................

Here we are in yet another title where the same thing is stated,
by Ute: (another Watcher)

"Or THIS, the Prime Reality (616) will fall and with it ... ALL EXISTENCE" [/B]

that stance is completely different from the one you used to have, and frankly i have no idea what you're even claiming here. are you saying that multiple eternities do not exist?

^^^ I can't see why you would say that friend.

And I'm not saying that.

Originally posted by leonidas

who exactly is it that says eternity is limited to being a single universe....?
that dr strange scan (before any mention of a multi eternity)
shows clear as day that eternity (616) is comprised of universeS,
dimensionS, etc.....

But that's also my point, it was from the Infinity Crusade arc,
where there was a being trying to change the Multiverse.

There is no single Universe that holds or supports entire extra Universes within it.

The 616 Reality/Eternity is one Universe.

Earth 616: (616 Universe)

"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"

***

It's just that the power of all realities comes from this center point,
which is 616 Eternity/Infinity are depicted as containing the power
of all Space-Time that make it up.

Originally posted by lilshogun
Dream of Endless ( Gaiman version ) is a anthropomofic personifications entity. Marvel concept beings are like superheroes shooting lasers from their hands. Abraxas is a Galactus level being.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^^ I can't see why you would say that friend.

And I'm not saying that.

I know it's 616 Eternity.

But that's also my point, it was from the Infinity Crusade arc,
where there was a being trying to change the Multiverse.

There is no single Universe that holds or supports entire extra Universes within it.

The 616 Reality/Eternity is one Universe.

[B]Earth 616: (616 Universe)

"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"

***

It's just that the power of all realities comes from this center point,
which is 616 Eternity/Infinity are depicted as containing the power
of all Space-Time that make it up.

[/B]

i say that because i used to UNDERSTAND your stance. this? i still have no clue what you're even saying.... you know it was 616 eternity, but eternity cannot hold more than one universe? 😕

one thing at a time. did that dr strange scan show that eternity (616) was comprised of multiple universeS?

Originally posted by Eon Blue

good seeing u post

Originally posted by leonidas
the first scan ALREADY confirms that eternity (singular) is comprised of universeS..... 😕

I remember that Dr Strange scene was used against me in an argument because someone thought I was trying to prove that Multi-Eternity didn't exist back then.I told him that I never said Multi-Eternity didn't exist back then and I cleared up my stance of Multi-Eternity being described and shown in the FFAnnual2001 arc.The Dr Strange scene can be taken as Multi-Eternity acting through his universal representation to show Dr Strange Universes.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, i could turn that question around--if he were actually speaking of multi-eternity and said that, would the comment make anymore sense? i think it would make even less. what more COULD there be if he were referencing multi-eternity?

just look at the evidence:

(a) we know eternity (singular) is made of universeS. (on panel)
(b) we know dormmy once confronted eternity, and this meeting is actually REFERENCED by eternity in that same arc.
(c) dormmy actually (through pis) CONQUERED the eternity entity in that arc
(d) multi is never mentioned by name

now we're supposed to just suppose that the entity is multi, and that he remembers dormmy because one infinitesimally small portion of him once confronted him? we're also supposed to ignore the fact that multi was never mentioned and simply except (without a shred of proof) that dormmy ACTUALLY took over the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE (ruled all alternate dimensions, etc)? only to lose--again--to strange and the defenders.

yeah, i'm afraid that is something that i will NEVER be convinced of.

We know Dormammu and Umar defeated Eternity(universal) because of their power being joined and that they took advantage in a shift in the cosmic axis.Here's how I interpret it.After Dormy and Umar took out Eternity(Universal), Dormammu proceeded to bathe in Eternity's blood.Lets say that blood acted as a portal sending Dormammu inside Multi-Eternity.You can see the proof in Dormammu's description and experience when he said "Universes" while being inside.If he didn't say "Universes" while being inside, then your stance would be valid that it wasn't Multi-Eternity.But the fact remained that he said Worlds,Dimensions and Universes and he continues to say "this is the merest of fraction of what Eternity is."You can use FFAnnual2001.But the diiference between Reed in that scene and Dormammu in the Defenders arc, is Reed was just introduce to Eternity in his fullest form while Dormammu was inside Eternity's fullest form.And Dormammu was only defeated because his power was still joined to Umar's.

The Defenders arc is open to your interpretation, but to me, it actually shows Universal Eternity and Multi-Eternity are one and the same.With Universal Eternity as being an avatar of Multi-Eternity to interact with beings in a Universe.This are abstracts were talking about after all.

and morpheus is above beings like eternity/abraxas/galactus

Originally posted by Igniz
I remember that Dr Strange scene was used against me in an argument because someone thought I was trying to prove that Multi-Eternity didn't exist back then.I told him that I never said Multi-Eternity didn't exist back then and I cleared up my stance of Multi-Eternity being described and shown in the FFAnnual2001 arc.The Dr Strange scene can be taken as Multi-Eternity acting through his universal representation to show Dr Strange Universes.

that's cool and is certainly your perogative. you are retroactively ascribing the multi-entity to that strange scene though, and i think that overcomplicates things. i've always viewed eternity as more than universal, and i see no reason to change that. the terms universe, dinemsions, realms, cosmos, have always been used interchangeably, which is why i think eternity can be created of all these things. then, each eternity is likelwise composed of all these things. this multi entity is simply the accumulation of these eternities pretty simple imo.

i'm curious though--if you think 616 eternity is just one universe, where do you place things like all the splinter realms (hell, cyttorak's universe, vishanti's universe, etc....)? asgard? olympus? are they within 616 eternity? we've seen alternate versions of all these things. so, where do you put them if not inside 616 eternity? do they exist on their own somehow? and if they are within eternity (which is what i believe) then eternity (616) can indeed be viewed as multiversal. the term 'universe' is too limiting and forces a hierarchy that doesn't consistenly fit. eternity is also referred to the totality, the sum of all things, etc..... those terms fit better my impression of what 616--and all eternities--are.

here is another couple scans supporting that eternity is actually an accumulation of many dimensions/universes--iow, a multiverse unto himself:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/468/universes2ya2.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/524/lt2cm.jpg/

some can claim that lt's description was a typo. i don't think that is required at ll. each eternity IS a multiverse on its own. least imo. and that first scan indicates to me that all those splinter realms i mentioned are indeed within 616 eternity (as shown by the seven spheres that was mentioned).

We know Dormammu and Umar defeated Eternity(universal) because of their power being joined and that they took advantage in a shift in the cosmic axis.Here's how I interpret it.After Dormy and Umar took out Eternity(Universal), Dormammu proceeded to bathe in Eternity's blood.Lets say that blood acted as a portal sending Dormammu inside Multi-Eternity.You can see the proof in Dormammu's description and experience when he said "Universes" while being inside.If he didn't say "Universes" while being inside, then your stance would be valid that it wasn't Multi-Eternity.But the fact remained that he said Worlds,Dimensions and Universes and he continues to say "this is the merest of fraction of what Eternity is."You can use FFAnnual2001.But the diiference between Reed in that scene and Dormammu in the Defenders arc, is Reed was just introduce to Eternity in his fullest form while Dormammu was inside Eternity's fullest form.And Dormammu was only defeated because his power was still joined to Umar's.

The Defenders arc is open to your interpretation, but to me, it actually shows Universal Eternity and Multi-Eternity are one and the same.With Universal Eternity as being an avatar of Multi-Eternity to interact with beings in a Universe.This are abstracts were talking about after all.

that also is cool, and your opinion. i disagree that we need to call down multi-eternity to explain any of that. again, we see that dormmy created his own world. how you or anyone can go and say he ruled completely over the entire multiverse (so NO alternate universes existed that were not ruled by dormmy?) i have no idea. what you're saying is that there was no alternate where dormmy chose NOT to act. where the exis did NOT shift in that way.

it's been said in comics (in what ifs and other places) that each time a choice is made, a divergent universe is born. and yet, to say that dormmy took control over the entire multiverse means nothing--no what ifs, no nothing, existed that he didn't absolutely control. i have problems with this pov. we only saw him in control of ONE 'place', not ALL places. then we have the simple issue that multi-eternity is never named at all. you think the author wrote that assuming readers would just.....figure it out for themselves? IF he were aware of the multi-entity, you'd think he'd have mentioned that. 😬

then, if not mentioning his name and forcing readers to make assumptions many wouldn't even be aware of in the first place wasn't enough, the writer goes out of his way to TELL us that was 616 eternity that faced dormmy. man, that's a LOT of confusion he's put in there. yet on top of that we have to assume that dormmy took control of multi because something happened where dormmy 'somehow'..... took over multi from WITHIN 616 eternity? 😑

ew. WAYYYYYYY too complex for me.

616 eternity has always been comprised of numerous dimensions/universes/etc, and that viewpoint HAS been supported on panel. if we take that view, dormmy took over the 616 version of eternity, no missing names, no wild assumptions. he did what was shown. simple and crystal clear, imo.

whew. sorry for the lengthy reply. cosmology is interesting stuff. 🙂

Without a doubt I'd say the Ultimator is far beyond Abraxas. Dream effortlessly put him to sleep.

Dream wins.

So Mr. Master you believe that Abraxas presence walking pass the universes caused them to collapse?? I don't believe he was doing that at all, he was going into them searching for the different versions of Galactus to kill them, and then moving on to another while getting closer and closer to the main 616 Universe. This seems to be the reason for the merging. imo

Dream wins also.

Originally posted by leonidas

i say that because i used to UNDERSTAND your stance. this?

Originally posted by leonidas

i still have no clue what you're even saying.... you know it was
616 eternity, but eternity cannot hold more than one universe?

Once I understood this, I've always said, 616 Eternity > all others,
and I go further and say, 616 Eternity/Infinity = power of the
Multiversal Space-Time Continuum.

It makes sense.

616 was the starting point of everything, the center/core of the Omniverse.
It is from 616 that all other alternates realities are born.

616 Eternity has been witnessed by Strange holding entire UniverseS in one hand, past, present and future.

616 Eternity has been witnessed by Dormy destroying/creating entire Universes.

616 Eternity has been called "the lord of all that is" by the LT.

Both Reed & Roma called 'multi' Eternity ... "Eternity."

Originally posted by leonidas

did that dr strange scan show that eternity (616) was comprised of multiple universeS?

That scan shows 616 Eternity has power over all the other
universes that make up its totality.

I know for a fact, that 616 Eternity is a single Universe/Reality,
so therefore I have no choice but to interpret this as a
representation of 616 Eternity's power which is obviously not
universal as the aspect is in size.

Now, if you can show me an instance where any other Eternity was
even alluded to being more than universal, I'll give you the argument.

But, I'm certain that isn't gonna happen. 😛

edit

Originally posted by Cogito
Without a doubt I'd say the Ultimator is far beyond Abraxas. Dream effortlessly put him to sleep.

Dream wins.

Dream BORED him to sleep. Plus there were people that thought the entire thing was a story made up by Mxy. I provided links to the scans from Comicvine.

Originally posted by kevdude

So Mr. Master

you believe that Abraxas presence walking pass the
universes caused them to collapse??

I don't believe he was doing that at all

Ok, so you don't "believe" it, ... and?

You believed the Galactus Head was what mind wiped & comatose Uatu,
you also believed it was the cause of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum's disruption.
you also believed Abraxas attacked Uatu when his wraith-like state appeared even though Abraxas attacked Uatu from UniverseS away,
you also believed Abraxas was merging realities by killing Galactuses.

So, when we add this up,
I certainly am not concerned with your beliefs concerning Abraxas.

Originally posted by kevdude

he was going into them searching for the different versions of
Galactus to kill them, and then moving on to another while getting
closer and closer to the main 616 Universe. This seems to be the
reason for the merging. imo

Alternate Galactuses have died in other stories and the reality suffered no ill affects.

Originally posted by zopzop

Dream BORED him to sleep.
Plus there were people that thought the entire thing was a story made up by Mxy.