Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A lot of extrapolation there, but it's not wrong to draw conclusions with evidence to bridge the gap. Either you bridge the gap and make a conclusion or you say it can't be bridged and you void the fight.
Not thaat this is a reflection of my personal belief on the matter, but isn't this exactly why theres a rule against using Unknown combatants?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
At first glance, that appears to be fairness, but in reality the idea of applying it to Revan is an attempt to bridge a huge medium gap. We simply don't have live footage of Revan dueling anyone. We're left to draw our own conclusions, and that injects a lot of subjectivity on behalf of the observer to determine his ranking. The intent of the game creators is "Revan is boss of his era". The only being that conclusively defeats Revan is a Force God who cannot be measured as anything but vastly superior to everyone else at this point. Meanwhile, you have him not just defeating but dominating opponents like Malak (foremost Sith of his era besides Revan, warhero, Jedi Guardian of exceptional talent), Yusanis (foremost echani duelist, echani have a precedent of defeating Jedi in melee), Mandalore (high ranking enemy warrior, lifelong combatant, Mandalorians are among the most dangerous opponents in the galaxy), and Nyriss (Sith Lord of exceptional strength and standing, head and shoulders above Scourge at this point, considerable lightning skills imply considerable Force talent).
All of which point to the conclusion that Revan was a prodigious and uncommonly powerful Force user, which is an idea that isn't contested by anyone I'm aware of. It's the idea that this extrapolation can be refined so precisely as to indicate obvious superiority over Dooku that you begin to lose me.
Stealth Moose
Dooku hasn't shown us Force mastery on Revan's level.
He hasn't? With the exception of Revan's ability to "channel light and dark side" powers into an explosive burst of telekinesis, I'm unsure of anything that Dooku hasn't equaled in terms of power. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku's telekinetic powers outstrip Revan's own in terms of scale and control. If I'm leaving out canonical feats from the game, feel free to remind me.
Stealth Moose
Revan is not a mid-tier or novice fighter.
Of course not, no one has suggested otherwise.
Stealth Moose
The implication seems that he's top-tier or best of his era.
The implication is likewise that the good Count is top tier of his era, too, rivaling Mace Windu and second only to Yoda and Sidious, in the timeframe that Lucas refers to as "the golden age of Jedi."
Stealth Moose
Revan even goes so far as to call him the best champion of the Jedi at this point.
While not necessarily false, Revan was written in third person limited, meaning that this accolade comes from Revan's own mind.
Herbert Spencer
[quote]Stealth Moose
Dooku hasn't shown us Force mastery on Revan's level.
He hasn't? With the exception of Revan's ability to "channel light and dark side" powers into an explosive burst of telekinesis, I'm unsure of anything that Dooku hasn't equaled in terms of power. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku's telekinetic powers outstrip Revan's own in terms of scale and control. If I'm leaving out canonical feats from the game, feel free to remind me.[/quote]
With respect to this claim, consider the following:
^ At the 0:17 mark.
^ At the 0:14 mark.
I don't have access to the comics and books, but hopefully that will do for now.
I gonna back up Herbert here. Dooku was extremely skilled in offensive Force use. In last encounter with Obi-Wan he defeated him with Force alone. Yoda was extremely powerful in the Force, he snatched off lightsabers from Ventress, who was very powerful herself engaging other council members on equal terms, yet, Yoda had to engage Dooku in lightsaber combat as not able to defeat him with Force alone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oh13eBEtu4
On this video Anakin entered "angry mode" not giving a f*** about paralysing spear of Magnaguard and showed himself better with lightsaber, yet, Dooku succesfully countered him with the Force.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Anakin was clearly overpowering Dooku in Sabers there, and I don't even think he was In The Zone in that fight. Just angry.Not sure why on Earth Dooku thought he would be capable of handling both Obi-Wan and Anakin by ROTS.
Originally posted by Arhael
When that In the zone actually happened and what it is about? I meant he entered similar state as in RotS in their encounter.
The Zone is when in the ROTS novel he's described as having achieved a perfect clarity. Being completely focused.
In that moment he was able to defeat Count Dooku instantly.
He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.
The way he's fighting in that above video though is probably more akin to the way he was in his fight against Obi-Wan (but probably less confused).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.
That's actually a very astute point. Mortis is a Force nexus, of course, "an amplifier" in the words of ghost!Qui-Gon, but naturally the Son and Daughter's powers would have been bolstered by it as well.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Zone is when in the ROTS novel he's described as having achieved a perfect clarity. Being completely focused.In that moment he was able to defeat Count Dooku instantly.
He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.
The way he's fighting in that above video though is probably more akin to the way he was in his fight against Obi-Wan (but probably less confused).
Mortis is a Force nexus, of course, "an amplifier" in the words of ghost
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I didn't suggest that they could.
I know. Wasn't arguing. Was just adding what the Father said.
Originally posted by Arhael
Well, it is not something miraculous to experience it only ones in a lifetime. In both cases Dooku was trolling and constantly driven back and Sidious relish Anakin succumbing to his anger. The only difference is that in first case he got chance to save situation with Force lightning, while in second his hands were chopped off suddenly and unexpectedly.
The first fight(in your video) was a lot longer. And Dooku's Force powers seemed to be the only thing holding Anakin at bay.
In the ROTS one, according to the novel, he chopped his hands off in that moment of clarity. The hands went off as soon as Anakin decided to win.
Hence the decisive victory. Not giving his opponent the chance to use any force powers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the ROTS one, according to the novel, he chopped his hands off in that moment of clarity. The hands went off as soon as Anakin decided to win.Hence the decisive victory. Not giving his opponent the chance to use any force powers.
Originally posted by Arhael
Interesting concept. I guess I need to be patient before I reach the novel myself. Wondering how Dooku could get so smug thinking he could defeat Anakin in pure lightsaber fight and why he didn't attempt to use Force. My assumption is that there was no objects to grasp and Force pushing would only delay time and tire him up. Also, apparently, Anakin's Force defenses were too good to get Force choked like Obi-Wan.
Actually, my thoughts are useless, since they clearly come from EU perspective and CW wasn't even planned at the time.
Some of the ROTS version of the fight needs to be ignored.
For instance Dooku not knowing what form Anakin prefers. After 3 fights in CW (so far), that's pretty unlikely.
I really don't think Dooku could have done anything to Anakin with the Force in their final confrontation. I used to think he could. But after seeing the fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it seems like Anakin can take all Dooku's Force attacks.
So when he had that state of clarity in ROTS, it's probable Dooku's force attacks would not have had much effect at all.
So yes your right, Skywalker's natural force defenses must be very good.
Now the real brain teaser is how the heck Ventress managed to Force Choke him?! Even if she was in some temporary rage boost, surely that couldn't have made her more powerful in the force than Count Dooku!
Edit- Perhaps Skywalker is more powerful in season 4 than he was in season 3. Or perhaps he gained confidence, hence becoming more powerful on a consistent basis, after his trip to Mortis.
Now the real brain teaser is how the heck Ventress managed to Force Choke him?! Even if she was in some temporary rage boost, surely that couldn't have made her more powerful in the force than Count Dooku!
And actually, anger can give very huge power boost. If we think about it, anger cannot be amplified willingly, it's an emotion that gets stronger depending on circumstances.
Before Ventress fought them, Dooku said that she failed and that she is no longer his apprentice and shall die. At the same time her hatred for Jedi increased even more as they were the reason of her failure, that they kept spoiling her plans and then Obi-Wan didn't help the matter by giving taunts.
It's not a typical encounter, she experienced far greater anger, than usually.
Same with Opress. Both Ventress and Dooku treated him like a smear, chiding him and telling what to do. He got enraged and as the result unleashed it on them, then on Obi-Wan and Anakin and finally giving that Force blast knocking everyone over.
I read book The Old Republic: Deceived and it shows very well how anger can greatly amplify power.
On Alderaan on negotiation about piece treaty between Republic and empire Aryn Leneer - a Jedi Knight felt death of her master. Two Sith sitting and smirking at front of her became target of her rage. She gave immense Force blast, Sith blocked it but still were pushed against the wall, however, two statues on sides got shattered into pieces. Then one of the Sith took out lightsaber but she simply yanked it of with the Force. She didn't even want to take out lightsaber, she wanted to quash them with Force alone but fight was interrupted.
In another scene Malgus came to medical center on blockaded Corruscant by Empire. As he walked outside he felt how people despised and feared him. His anger started increasing and he was absorbing their fear and suffering. He clapped his hands and gave Oppress like Force blast that turned cars upside down, injured/killed people and broke windows. And he wasn't described to make a particularly big effort in performing this feat.
In first fight with Malgus Aryn gave in to her rage completely(he killed her master). Whole fight she was on offensive, successfully blocked his lightning and seriously injured him with lightsaber. But fight was interrupted and she decided to fly away as killing him in anger would lead to darkside.
In their second fight she tried to fight without anger, she wasn't as offensive anymore and failed to block Force lightning with lightsabers like last time and as the result lost fight.
Malgus after fight was angered about a lot of things. Then he killed Twilek girl he truly loved, which can be referenced to a Sith saying: "He will sacrifice his love". It caused him enormous pain and far greater anger. After he totally dominated a Sith Lord he rivaled and the implication of that fight was that Malgus's anger was far stronger.
It's a great book. Strongly advice to read it.
Apart from these situations there are far more examples showing what enraged Force user can do. For instance Galen Marek's feats were achieved not just because of his potential but because he was psycho.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Point being if an enraged Ventress can choke Obi-Wan and Anakin together, then surely Count Dooku should be able to Force Choke Anakin in a one on one (assuming Anakin doesn't go into his Crystal clear state of mind).
^ I understand Ventress can't do that any time she likes.
But what I'm saying is Dooku is so far ahead of Ventress in the force that she would need an absolutely huge boost to match/surpass him.
So I still think if Ventress can choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan in a bit of rage, then surely Count Dooku should be able to choke just Anakin in a one on one.