Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Best theory? You are taking a hyperbolic statement very seriously. Star Wars and LOGIC don't complement each other very often. It is science fiction. Take it as such.
If such is fact, please stop your "debating" right now. After all, a universe in which logic cannot be taken into account clearly cannot be logically analyzed. Good day to you.
Now what has plagueis done that puts him above Vitiate? Any amazing combat feats?
I have not read the book yet. He was stated to be more powerful than any sith. Now it has been pointed out that such a statement cannot be taken as completely irrefutable fact, but it's still a canon statement. But wait, he cannot unleash the full power of the dark side against a defenseless droid!
Just watch the ownage Vitiate extends to 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously;[link removed]
If I had the privledge, I could post a video of Palpatien owning three "powerful Jedi" within seconds. After all, we know that "powerful Jedi" is such a quantifiable turn. I can show you a video of Jango Fett owning a "powerful Jedi" in AotC with a few shots as well.
Genius, Everest is CONFIRMED as tallest mountain in the world. This is the difference. Their is no hyperbole in this statement.
So if you had never heard of Everest, and a reliable, intelligent person told you that it was "the tallest mountain in the world", your obvious response would be "ah, he's just exaggerating. Mount Rushmore is so much taller."
It gives you some 'reality check' about Vitiate' command of the Force.
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Wait, what the fvk are you saying?
Listen genius, all of those sources are OLD. Plagueis novel is relatively new and he is claimed to be as such as well - hmm! I get the picture. So which source we should trust?
So I suppose that Darth Vader never killed Obi-Wan, because A New Hope is just so old.
Why do you think that their is no OFFICIAL ranking of Jedi and Sith on the OFFICIAL Star Wars website?
Hey, there is no official ranking of the shortest Jedi on the Council in RotS either; so Yoda cannot be stated as such. Additionally, in an interview on TFU.net, the answer to the question of the most powerful sith was "Palpatine at his peak". Next.
In SW-TCE; Yoda is still stated to be the strongest Jedi even when updated information of Luke is in it (up to LOTF period, I believe). Should we all accept that Yoda > Luke?
Which again brings up the question of whether "strongest" means "strongest in context" or "STRONGEST EVAR!!!! PAST AND FUTURE!" Funny thing is, your example simply lends credence to the interpretation that such statements are contextual, an interpretation that does not involve throwing away sources because they are "old".
Their was a time, when Sidious got the label of the strongest Sith Lord ever. However, now more are getting similar labels - this is not even funny.
The honest approach to this would be to rationalize the sources, rather than dismissing them as "old".
Then choice of words are wrong or hyperbolic, as I am pointing out.
Or, the word "EVER" perhaps has a different meaning than "PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE!!!!". Really, who in the galaxy uses this definition of the word?
Yes, POV of the narrator is the thing here. POV can differ from person to person. While POV of narrator has merit; we have to focus on the BIG PICTURE by ourselves.
Do you believe that when authors are writing novels, they take a good look at other materials? They don't usually. This is why we have contradictions in Star Wars mythos.
It should be made mandatory that if an author is writing a Star Wars novel, he or she should check all relevant materials properly. Unfortunately, this does not happens usually.
Ah, so you are breaking Suspension of Disbelief here. Tell me, do you think that the author fully considered the meaning of "full power of the dark side", or was he just coming up with (or copying) a metaphor from his arse? Does this really mean that Vitiate has the ability to summon the FULL POWER of the dark side (read: enough to make the Death Star "insignificant"😉, but only ever uses it once, against "the defenseless droid"?
Really, tell me now.
But Nyriss investigated Nathema. She can't dig out some information on her own? This is where you are wrong.
Of course she did. She even said it herself. My point being that your "she was on the Dark Council and had access to secrets!" point was completely irrelevant (again).
Not single but several parts of the account given by Nyriss have been validated by other sources.
For example:
- Marka Ragnos granted the title of Lord Vitiate to Tenebrae.
- Tenebrae became the ruler of Nathema.
- Revan' findings confirm that Vitiate killed Lord Dramath during his rise to power.
- Meetra Surik' investigation confirms that Tenebrae did invite many Sith Lords to Nathema.
The same thing can be applied to Achille's tale as well. After all, much archaeological evidence suggests that Troy really did exist. By your logic, it means that Apollo really did magically protect Hector's body from decay as he was dragged around by Achilles (who looked like Brad Pitt).
And you know the rest.So if several parts of the account are being validated, then what is the issue here? Yes, not every bit of the account is confirmed but nonetheless, we have some information from Nyriss to consider (as she got that information from somewhere). It is logical fallacy to outright reject/dismiss her account.
No, the burden of proof lies on actually substantiating the claim. Could it be true? Yes, it could. But we don't know for sure, and to do what you are doing; to claim that the legend is fact, is...um, incorrect.
We don't know exactly what information Vitiate shared with Dark Council members. However, Nyriss investigated his past on her own. Being a member of the Dark Council, she would have access to sources that other individuals wouldn't unless they are members of the Dark Council too. Get the memo?
That's not what you originally said. Again, you are backtracking. I don't understand what you are attempting to "prove" that Nyriss investigated Nathema herself when she quite obviously did. She stated it herself.
This;
You are clearly dismissing supportive material of Nyriss account - even if it only confirms a part of it.
And you have also dismissed the 'entire account' as unverified legend;
No, I misunderstood the purpose of your statement. I thought that you were trying to provide feats in Vitiate's name. But now, I realize that you are simply making completely irrelevant pieces of "information" to perpetuate the fallacy that a part of a story being true means that all of it is. Did you know that professional liars do exactly that; mix strands of truth into their lies? You would be a horrible interrogator.
This is what I find troublesome. Parts of her account have been verified through other sources. Their is equal likelihood that the remaining part of her account is also true. Nyriss is not sure but she shares what she knows. (Us) readers are not in the position to dismiss her account outright, when we can notice that parts of her account have been verified and we don't have any other source that contradicts or overrules Nyriss' findings as a whole. Get the point?
There is a likelihood that it is true, if not only for the (breaking SoD) common cliche that all legends in a fictional universe are true. But it still cannot be proven.
I have my share of lengthy debates on this subject.
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Sidious has never demonstrated the capability to turn a powerful opponent in to his mental slave during combat situation. Period.
I already said; in sheer power, Vitiate is probably the most impressive telepath in the mythos. But unless if you can prove that such a technique would work on Palpatine, or Luke Skywalker, it's pretty irrelevant.
In contrast, Vitiate has.
Against pre KoTOR Revan and Malak, yes. But a redeemed Revan resisted it. And even Revan and Malak, although corrupted by the dark side, twisted his own orders into their own ends, and managed to purge his involvement from their memory. Ie, in the long run, they partially broke free of it, even if they were corrupted.
No, Sidious did not mind dominate Marek.
Sidious certainly has great command of mind tricks. On sheer scale, he may trump all others. However, his mind dominating capabilities have been mostly effective against weak individuals and not so on strong individuals.
Here is another evidence of Vitiate' mind domination:
YouTube video
Warren Sedoru is one of the 4 Jedi and that Vitiate overwhelmed with his powers (first video provided above). Vitiate mind dominated all of them in the process as well. [/B]
None of them have demonstrated anything putting them in the same tier as Palpatine.
Really, one would question why Vitiate does not simply mind control the entire Dark Council. He obviously does not, given that a large portion of it was secretly plotting against him.