Lord Vitiate vs Gauntlet

Started by Arhael7 pages
Arhael Devoid of reality

This is lame argument. Nyax almost dominated the minds of these Jedi and then what happened? How the Jedi resisted his telepathic assault - Through combined efforts or on individual basis?
For you everything is lame, which doesn't favor your beliefs. They managed to resist him with combined effort. I am not going to search quotes for you, open wookieepedia, it perfectly describes each situation and powers of those individuals.

Revan and Malak are not the only examples. Vitiate succeeded in crushing the wills of many other individuals. In one case, he did so to 4 Jedi simultaneously and none of them were close to darkness. Play the game and you will get more insight.
Nice try. I don't play game, yet, I saw video, where he incapacitated them with Force lightning, not mind domination. Plus, as it is game, everything is over-hyped and much more visually effective.

No human being is devoid of emotions.

And Jedi like Luke are masters at controlling their emotions and how to use positive emotions and believes to resist whatever influence is to come.

Leia was a Jedi by this time. She learned Battle Meditation, Force Harmony and similar techniques, which could empower individuals.

Awkward times, when missing facepalm smiley 👆

If your assertion is true then it is safe to assume that Luke matched Palpatine' skills with the lightsaber at least. This also affirms the dynamic nature of Star Wars. In one duel, Palpatine subdued Luke. In the other, tables turned.
Lightside offers inner balance and noble reason of fighting selflessly to protect others, which gives far greater strength, than constant drilling combat skills and abusing Force powers.

Luke was emotionally stable during this duel.
Another fail. Stop making up stuff. He was anything but not emotionally stable.

A dark sider cannot defeat another dark sider? Nonsense.
It was only a few days of Luke's apprenticeship. He certainly didn't enjoy it. He completely lost confidence in himself. He was uncertain, he was scared. All his strength was coming from lightside and by giving in to darkside he lost it all. Nonsense to assume Luke with no experience and knowledge in Sith ways could win most powerful Sith with decades of experience and far superior power. He was less experienced in combat and much weaker in power but it was the lightside that gave him greater self-control, moral strength, pure clarity and Force perception to defeat Palpatine.

Unu'Thul was using Dun Moch. Objective is to erode the will of the opponent or demoralize the opponent. Luke was doing the same too in response. It was a test of wills of both.
Your points never stop amazing me. Dun Moch is a Sith thing. Thul wasn't Sith, he was part of killik mind and was thinking in very same bug way, there is no way he would use something like that. It was plain attempt to mind dominate Luke with use of combined power from millions killiks. And saying that Luke did the same to him in response is totally wrong. He used his will in very different way aimed at breaking killik's control over him, of teacher giving hand to his old student.

Their are several techniques to influence the mind of the opponent. Some are more effective then others.
Sigh..

True to some extent. But Vitiate has shown greater proficiency in comparison. Dominating the wills of several powerful adversaries simultaneously during combat situation is not a joke.
Give me at least on example, where he mind dominated someone during combat. Every time it happened before any fight could start. You are describing it as if he instead of Force pushes was throwing mind dominating ultra ballz. sorcerer

Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them.
Pff. Seriously?

Being son of the chosen one is not an argument. It means nothing when the father himself was very vulnerable to manipulation and other things.
Having father's potential without his weaknesses weights a lot and unlike father Luke showed himself superior among Jedi to ever live. You are trying to prove that Vitiate can mind dominate Luke, when he couldn't dominate Jedi Knight. Argument is finished.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
For you everything is lame, which doesn't favor your beliefs. They managed to resist him with combined effort. I am not going to search quotes for you, open wookieepedia, it perfectly describes each situation and powers of those individuals.

Everything is not lame for me. I appreciate your input.

You just ended this debate with your answer. In this contest, Luke is alone. Do the math now.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nice try. I don't play game, yet, I saw video, where he incapacitated them with Force lightning, not mind domination. Plus, as it is game, everything is over-hyped and much more visually effective.

1. You cannot grasp these events by just looking at a single video. You need to play the game or watch more videos.
2. Vitiate mind-dominated all 4 Jedi simultaneously and turned them in to his mental servants. Recheck that video and pay attention to what Vitiate says after he incapacited them.
Spoiler:
Later on, the main hero (Jedi Knight) broke free from Vitiate' mental grip with help from a Force Ghost (or something similar) of one of the Jedi Masters who was immensely skilled in these matters.

3. Visual appeal is not the point here. Events shown in the cutscenes are canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Jedi like Luke are masters at controlling their emotions and how to use positive emotions and believes to resist whatever influence is to come.

You don't get the point - do you? No where I have stated that Luke is not a master at controlling his emotions. Most powerful Jedi are. Revan was also immensely good at controlling his emotions.

Vitiate' command of the dark side is immense and goes beyond normal Sith practices. This is why he is able to perform feats that most Sith cannot. Vitiate is UNNATURAL - an ABOMINATION. Try to comprehend this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Awkward times, when missing facepalm smiley 👆

It is my general assessment of her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lightside offers inner balance and noble reason of fighting selflessly to protect others, which gives far greater strength, than constant drilling combat skills and abusing Force powers.

Yes. Luke will be certainly a formidable opponent for Vitiate too. He is for any opponent. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
Another fail. Stop making up stuff. He was anything but not emotionally stable.

He wasn't broke during this time. Just prior to the duel, he was doing what he intended to do originally - understand the weakness of Palpatine and destroy his life support (cloned bodies). Sidious fought and broke him during the process. It is just that he had relatively less command of the dark side and lost.

Originally posted by Arhael
It was only a few days of Luke's apprenticeship. He certainly didn't enjoy it. He completely lost confidence in himself. He was uncertain, he was scared. All his strength was coming from lightside and by giving in to darkside he lost it all. Nonsense to assume Luke with no experience and knowledge in Sith ways could win most powerful Sith with decades of experience and far superior power. He was less experienced in combat and much weaker in power but it was the lightside that gave him greater self-control, moral strength, pure clarity and Force perception to defeat Palpatine.

Luke made a blunder. He thought that he could conquer the dark side from within but he was wrong. However, Luke lost his confidence after Sidious broke him. Try to understand the difference.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your points never stop amazing me. Dun Moch is a Sith thing. Thul wasn't Sith, he was part of killik mind and was thinking in very same bug way, there is no way he would use something like that. It was plain attempt to mind dominate Luke with use of combined power from millions killiks. And saying that Luke did the same to him in response is totally wrong. He used his will in very different way aimed at breaking killik's control over him, of teacher giving hand to his old student.

Your grasp of these things is inadequate. Unu'Thul was trying to dissuade Luke in his attempt to reach his position. Luke was trying to redeem Unu'Thul in response. It was a test of wills of both and taunts and words were being exchanged in the process - as it happens with Dun Moch. In the end, Luke overpowered Unu'Thul in combat and forced his will upon the defeated foe - very similar to what Sidious did to him long ago. Their was no telepathic bombardment.

And Jedi do not necessarily restrict themselves to light side powers only. Remember Electric Judgement?

Revan also uses Dun Moch; "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Originally posted by Arhael
Sigh..

I am correct.

Originally posted by Arhael
Give me at least on example, where he mind dominated someone during combat. Every time it happened before any fight could start. You are describing it as if he instead of Force pushes was throwing mind dominating ultra ballz. sorcerer

This shows your ignorance. Vitiate uses his telepathic powers like a weapon in combat. Those powers typically succeed in crushing the will of the opponent to fight him early on.

Originally posted by Arhael
Pff. Seriously?

Yes. He does so with Revan.

Also, read this:

Spoiler:
"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

This was just a minor mental brush from Vitiate. If Vitiate had exerted more power, Scourge would be speaking everything.

Originally posted by Arhael
Having father's potential without his weaknesses weights a lot and unlike father Luke showed himself superior among Jedi to ever live. You are trying to prove that Vitiate can mind dominate Luke, when he couldn't dominate Jedi Knight. Argument is finished.

See above. This argument finishes in my favor. Thank you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge is more or less a Sith Juggernaut iirc and in the novel is shown to focus mainly on the martial aspects of lightsaber combat. I doubt he has much experience against telepathic assaults at all. A similar case would be Raskta Lsu who focused on lightsaber combat to the detrement of her Force defenses.

Good point. However, Vitiate just gave him a minor glimpse of himself. The purpose of this example is to reveal that how potent are the mental powers of Vitiate. He can exert much more power to break an opponent whose command of the Force would be significantly above then that of Scourge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that he did it simultaneously? What happens in the game is that he subdues them with lightning and then you cut to months later as you've been forced to work for the Emperor. He isn't shown mentally dominating them to my knowledge.

Recheck the video and pay attention to what Vitiate was saying after he incapacitated all of them. Of course, you will not see mental powers in action during the duel. 😉

And their are other videos which prove my point. One of them is of Warren Sedoru, which I also provided.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good point. However, Vitiate just gave him a minor glimpse of himself. The purpose of this example is to reveal that how potent are the mental powers of Vitiate. He can exert much more power to break an opponent whose command of the Force would be significantly above then that of Scourge.

Indeed. Though I personally don't see it as impressive given how vulnerable to mental assualt Scourge would logically be and how theres nothing suggesting he could adequately defend himself. It's you who allways requests proof of a combatants mental prowess in a Vitiate vs match, is it not? No matter how powerful the person is. Power is meaningless if you can't actually use it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Recheck the video and pay attention to what Vitiate was saying after he incapacitated all of them. Of course, you will not see mental powers in action during the duel. 😉

And their are other videos which prove my point. One of them is of Warren Sedoru, which I also provided.

It appears we have suffered some miscommunication. I believed you meant he dominated them at the same time i.e. 'simultaneously', as in during his speech he used telepathy on all of them at once. But it appears you just meant that they were mentally subjugated to him in the same time period. Which is of course correct.

Rogue Gladiator Restricted
Vitiate did not forged any link with Scourge.

No fvking shit. That was my point, laced in very transparent sarcasm that was neverthless far too complex for you to understand.

He wanted Scourge to know that he can extract truth from him without much effort and what horrors he is capable of committing, if he wants to.

You lie. Scourge dismissed the idea that the Emperor could easily extract any information from anyone, because if this were true, he would have easily have uncovered the plot against him.

If the Emperor could have easily extracted the truth from Scourge, he would have done so. Instead, he actually hast to analyze the datacard himself.

However, Vitiate did forged a telepathic link with Revan to probe him.

Yes, and Revan resisted him for three centuries, and influenced the Emperor along the way more than vice versa. Do you think that this helps your argument that "Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them"?

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No fvking shit. That was my point, laced in very transparent sarcasm that was neverthless far too complex for you to understand.

You need to calm down. Tossing insults at me will do you no good.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You lie. Scourge dismissed the idea that the Emperor could easily extract any information from anyone, because if this were true, he would have easily have uncovered the plot against him.

If the Emperor could have easily extracted the truth from Scourge, he would have done so. Instead, he actually hast to analyze the datacard himself.


You fail to understand the plot. Vitiate was testing Scourge for his loyality. He was not trying to probe Scourge' mind.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yes, and Revan resisted him for three centuries, and influenced the Emperor along the way more than vice versa. Do you think that this helps your argument that "Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them"?

My point is that he was capable of probing the minds of his targets. Very simple.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Supporting evidence:

"It's true," Revan assured her. "When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Rogue Gladiator Restricted
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to calm down. Tossing insults at me will do you no good.

Firstly, you started that. In fact, your very first post ever directed at me consisted of [very poor grammar] flamebaits. So there’s no need to play the victim, or play the shameless hypocrite. Apologize first.

Secondly, what I said is actually true. My post was very obvious sarcasm, and you completely missed it. I will ask, this time with no hint of sarcasm, if English is your first language. If it isn’t, then maybe your mistake[s] can be overlooked.


You fail to understand the plot. Vitiate was testing Scourge for his loyality. He was not trying to probe Scourge' mind.

If his mental powers are so advanced that he could know “all” the secrets of Palpatine in the middle of a fight just by probing his mind, he wouldn’t need to ‘test’ Scourge’s loyalty. He would already know how loyal he was.


My point is that he was capable of probing the minds of his targets. Very simple.

Plenty of Force users can probe people’s minds. Sidious does it constantly. Luke Skywalker can do it. Really, what is your point? Your initial claim implied that Vitiate could know everything about Sidious, in the middle of a fight to the death, just by probing his mind. This you have failed miserably to prove.

Supporting evidence:

"It's true," Revan assured her. "When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)


Oh, wow! So after he broke Revan’s will, he can look into his mind. Amazing.

Arhael Devoid of reality


You just ended this debate with your answer. In this contest, Luke is alone. Do the math now.
I am talking not about unexperienced Luke from dark empire who still had much to learn. Nevertheless, he defeated Palpatine after learning his lesson and understood his mistakes.
Post DE Luke had much more trials, which made him much stronger mentality. He was immune to Abeloth who is beyond Vitiate in every way, the math works pretty well.

You cannot grasp these events by just looking at a single video.
I grasped enough to understand that it wasn't "mind-dominating 4 Jedi simultaneously in combat". He incapacitated them and then did whatever rituals and sessions were required.

You don't get the point - do you? Vitiate is UNNATURAL - an ABOMINATION. Try to comprehend this.
So was Palpatine, so was Nyax, so was Lomi Plo, so is Abeloth and many others that were beyond of what feats normal Sith could perform including Vitiate. And I am not talking just about Luke, there are other Jedi that would be capable mind resisting your Vitiate.

It is my general assessment of her.
Which is not only wrong but hilarious.

He wasn't broke during this time. It is just that he had relatively less command of the dark side and lost.
He was. He tried to win using darkside, which is against all his believes and morals. It is called broken as you can't fight properly, when there is mess in your head.

Luke lost his confidence after Sidious broke him. Try to understand the difference.
Luke lost his confidence the day he met him. Otherwise he would fight him instead of submitting to apprenticeship.

Your grasp of these things is inadequate. Their was no telepathic bombardment.
My grasp is perfectly adequate. Thul telepathically attacked him using overwhelming power given by millions of killiks. Didn't work. Then he mustered same overwhelming power to Force push Luke(Or Force blast in its raw form as you prefer to call it). Didn't work. Then he tried engaging in combat. Didn't work. You are trying arguing with me about things that you don't know. And Luke did not overpower him, please, don't use this word like that on Luke.

And Jedi do not necessarily restrict themselves to light side powers only. Remember Electric Judgement?
Jedi absolutely necessary restrict themselves from darkside powers, they sometimes loose control but is another matter.
Power nature is determined by emotions. Force lightning is darkside power because it is mustered by channeling anger. Electric Judgment is not darkside power as it is not created by negative emotions and nowhere it is described as darkside power. Jedi restrict themselves from anger, hence, whatever they produce is lightside based.

Revan also uses Dun Moch; "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."
🤘

I am correct.
Fine, if you think so. 😉

Yes. He does so with Revan.
When?

This was just a minor mental brush from Vitiate. If Vitiate had exerted more power, Scourge would be speaking everything.
Scourge was coward and scared. Yes, he would speak, which would only prove his weak will, lack of confidence and cowardice submission but it would never be the same for Jedi.

See above. This argument finishes in my favor. Thank you.
The argument will finish with everyone left with their own opinions as it was right at the beginning. No general SW book fun will follow your game based delusions.

"It's true," Revan assured her. "When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)
Which only proves that he was able to do it only after mind dominating Revan. After capturing Revan again, he couldn't break his will and had no clue about what was happening in republic. Moreover, Vitiate got influenced himself. Such an embarrassment for "all powerful abomination".

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
I am talking not about unexperienced Luke from dark empire who still had much to learn. Nevertheless, he defeated Palpatine after learning his lesson and understood his mistakes.
Post DE Luke had much more trials, which made him much stronger mentality. He was immune to Abeloth who is beyond Vitiate in every way, the math works pretty well.

Yes, I accept that Luke would be challenging to dominate mentally but is it impossible? Vitiate has element of surprise in this aspect.

Also, we have been though the Abeloth part already. Don't bring it up again and again.

Originally posted by Arhael
I grasped enough to understand that it wasn't "mind-dominating 4 Jedi simultaneously in combat". He incapacitated them and then did whatever rituals and sessions were required.

You need to support you arguments with evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
So was Palpatine, so was Nyax, so was Lomi Plo, so is Abeloth and many others that were beyond of what feats normal Sith could perform including Vitiate. And I am not talking just about Luke, there are other Jedi that would be capable mind resisting your Vitiate.

That is a bold claim, genius. Vitiate would have destroyed the entire Galaxy, if given a chance. He was such an abomination that even Sith began to resent him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is not only wrong but hilarious.

She doesn't know those powers?

Originally posted by Arhael
He was. He tried to win using darkside, which is against all his believes and morals. It is called broken as you can't fight properly, when there is mess in your head.

Your understanding is messed-up. When Luke embraced the dark side, he was no longer a pure Jedi. He went against his beliefs. One doesn't get broke by embracing the dark side. Look up in the canonical sources, if you cannot understand my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke lost his confidence the day he met him. Otherwise he would fight him instead of submitting to apprenticeship.

Again, your understanding is messed-up. Luke embraced the dark side with his own will. He wanted to learn about Palpatine. He did not loose his confidence until he was subdued in a duel.

Originally posted by Arhael
My grasp is perfectly adequate. Thul telepathically attacked him using overwhelming power given by millions of killiks. Didn't work. Then he mustered same overwhelming power to Force push Luke(Or Force blast in its raw form as you prefer to call it). Didn't work. Then he tried engaging in combat. Didn't work. You are trying arguing with me about things that you don't know. And Luke did not overpower him, please, don't use this word like that on Luke.

You need to support you arguments with evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi absolutely necessary restrict themselves from darkside powers, they sometimes loose control but is another matter.
Power nature is determined by emotions. Force lightning is darkside power because it is mustered by channeling anger. Electric Judgment is not darkside power as it is not created by negative emotions and nowhere it is described as darkside power. Jedi restrict themselves from anger, hence, whatever they produce is lightside based.

Yes. However, your original claim that Jedi don't use Dun Moch is flawed. Jedi do use Dun Moch (often dubbed as inverse Dun Moch).

Originally posted by Arhael
🤘

It validates my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fine, if you think so. 😉

It is valid point. Concede.

Originally posted by Arhael
When?

Provided evidence already. Look it up.

Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge was coward and scared. Yes, he would speak, which would only prove his weak will, lack of confidence and cowardice submission but it would never be the same for Jedi.

Cowardice is not a valid argument. He wasn't immune to Force powers. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
The argument will finish with everyone left with their own opinions as it was right at the beginning. No general SW book fun will follow your game based delusions.

Their are no delusions. Only delusion is that fans of Luke consider him to be invincible.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which only proves that he was able to do it only after mind dominating Revan. After capturing Revan again, he couldn't break his will and had no clue about what was happening in republic. Moreover, Vitiate got influenced himself. Such an embarrassment for "all powerful abomination".

Don't underestimate Revan. It is not necessary that what Revan accomplished - others can do so too. These events show the dynamic nature of Star Wars. Luke' fans fail to understand this and rely on static set of assumptions. Does not works with me.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Yes, I accept that Luke would be challenging to dominate mentally but is it impossible? Vitiate has element of surprise in this aspect.
Yes, it is impossible because he is Jedi. Vitiate has no element of surprise. Meaningless walking darkside nexus like many others Luke already encountered including Palpatine and Abeloth.

I will bring aeloth part as much as needed as she is beyond your Vititate in every way. She proved that she can mind dominate by invading Grand Lord dream. She was not just mind dominating, she was consuming essences and she couldn't consume Luke, though she was in physical contact with him more than ones.

You need to support you arguments with evidence.
You support me with evidence that they were mind dominated in combat simultaneously.

That is a bold claim, genius. Vitiate would have destroyed the entire Galaxy, if given a chance. He was such an abomination that even Sith began to resent him.
Over hyping. If it was that easy, he would start by dominating Sith minds, then unanimously perform ritual on each Republic planet. But that would demonstrate his Sith sorcery skills, not his immense power.
Abeloth was such an abomination that Jedi and Sith allied together. Killiks stated that end of the galaxy is coming.

She doesn't know those powers?
Yes, she deosn't have those power and unlikely will. Battle meditation in Revan time was demonstrated only by Bastilla. In Luke's time only by Jacen. Mind meld, which was invented much later, than DE was allowing Jedi to work perfectly as team but was not empowering Jedi in any way. Luke was the only person to demonstrate it by empowering Jaina. Moreover, Lea at DE time had struggles to lift even small objects. During Luke's combat with Palpatine she was described both in comics and audio book as seeing light and dark confronting each other, there was not a single mention about her empowering him in any way. You made that up entirely. And even, if she could empower him, are you saying that it would be enough to overpower Palpatine? Impossible, because Palpatine's power was more, than both twins together. And more important is that Luke won not by overpowering but by winning combat, so power is irrelevant.

Your understanding is messed-up. When Luke embraced the dark side, he was no longer a pure Jedi. He went against his beliefs. One doesn't get broke by embracing the dark side. Look up in the canonical sources, if you cannot understand my point.
You are messed up. One does get broke by embracing darkside. Revan got mind dominated because of being exposed to darkside on first place.

Again, your understanding is messed-up. Luke embraced the dark side with his own will. He wanted to learn about Palpatine. He did not loose his confidence until he was subdued in a duel.
Nope, you are messing up. He wanted to learn darkside to understand how to defeat it, not embracing it. And he chose that pass because he wasn't confident in himself. By accepting lessons from Emperor he got consumed by darkside.

You need to support you arguments with evidence.

My evidence is darknest book 3. It is available for you to open and read.

Yes. However, your original claim that Jedi don't use Dun Moch is flawed. Jedi do use Dun Moch (often dubbed as inverse Dun Moch).
Agree but not in case with Thul.

It validates my point.
What exactly it validates? Did Naryss got weaker from that? She gave lightning powerful enough to kill her.

It is valid point. Concede.
It validates nothing. It was just a useless statement I started making fun on.

Provided evidence already. Look it up.

"When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind". He needs to break will first. He couldn't read Revan's mind for 300 years. Which by default means he would know nothing about Luke during fight.

Cowardice is not a valid argument. He wasn't immune to Force powers. Simple.
Cowardice is the most valid point. When I was coward, I was getting punched in face and humiliated. When I got brave, I kicked asses of the very same bullies. Same principle in star wars. Lomi Plo was kicking Luke's ass the whole trilogy until the end. She was invisible to him. She was constantly draining life from him making him weaker. One time she exposed his fear for Mara and Jacen's lives and made him freeze in one place(and this is not exaggeration). But then he got read of his doubts, restored confidence, had not fear and Lomi is suddenly visible and later in four pieces.

Their are no delusions. Only delusion is that fans of Luke consider him to be invincible.
I have no delusions about Luke being invincible as he lost plenty of fights to much weaker foes both in skill and in power. However, you have delusion that your Vitiate will be able to mind dominate someone of Luke's caliber, which means that he could mind dominate anyone. He was fighting Jedi Knight 1x1. Why didn't he mind dominate him then?

Don't underestimate Revan. It is not necessary that what Revan accomplished - others can do so too. These events show the dynamic nature of Star Wars. Luke' fans fail to understand this and rely on static set of assumptions. Does not works with me.
Stop saying underestimate. I am not underestimating anyone. But at the same time I not gonna give a single more credit to Revan, then to Luke, Yoda, Exile, Jedi Knight or any other powerful individuals with strong will. And most important I won't accept your opinion of Vitiate being able to mess up mind of anyone, especially, when he ended up having his mind messed up.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, it is impossible because he is Jedi. Vitiate has no element of surprise.

So being a Jedi makes an individual immune to mental influence? Is this why Vitiate managed to mind-dominate many Jedi? 🙄

Originally posted by Arhael
I will bring aeloth part as much as needed as she is beyond your Vititate in every way. She proved that she can mind dominate by invading Grand Lord dream. She was not just mind dominating, she was consuming essences and she couldn't consume Luke, though she was in physical contact with him more than ones.

Don't confuse story arc with lack of capability. Now since you want to consider Abeloth for this debate - I have a question for you. Please do answer.

When did Abeloth attempted to dominate the mind of Luke?

Originally posted by Arhael
You support me with evidence that they were mind dominated in combat simultaneously.

No problem.

This;

"You are mine. Servants. Slaves. Weapons. And you will obey... (Vitiate to the Jedi Strike Team after defeating it)

First;

YouTube video

Afterwards;

YouTube video

"The Emperor clouded your mind in darkness. Made you do terrible things. You've been the Emperor's pawn a long time." (Jedi Master to main hero - while helping him break free)

Same was the situation with the other 3 Jedi Masters who fell along side the main hero. Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves.

Here;

YouTube video

For example:

"This isn't you Warren. The Emperor is controlling you." (Main hero to Warren Sedoru)

Another example:

YouTube video

The Emperor broke you, Master Braga (Main hero to Tol Braga)

You can see how strong Tol Braga is. Four of these Jedi stood no chance against Vitiate when he bombarded them with his powers.

--------------------------------

Spoiler:
"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him." She glanced back at the door behind which they had left the Jedi. "I suspect that instead of executing Revan as he publicly proclaimed, the Emperor turned him into a puppet of his will and sent him back to the Republic to gather information."
(Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Now you understand that how Vitiate lasted so long? His telepathic powers were immense.

Get the picture now?

Originally posted by Arhael
Over hyping. If it was that easy, he would start by dominating Sith minds, then unanimously perform ritual on each Republic planet. But that would demonstrate his Sith sorcery skills, not his immense power.
Abeloth was such an abomination that Jedi and Sith allied together. Killiks stated that end of the galaxy is coming.

The second video above reveals the true nature of Vitiate. He is planning to repeat Nathema again and again.

"Nathema was just the beginning," Scourge agreed. "He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

These rituals were significantly boosting Vitiate' personal power. You cannot get more twisted then this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, she deosn't have those power and unlikely will. Battle meditation in Revan time was demonstrated only by Bastilla. In Luke's time only by Jacen. Mind meld, which was invented much later, than DE was allowing Jedi to work perfectly as team but was not empowering Jedi in any way. Luke was the only person to demonstrate it by empowering Jaina. Moreover, Lea at DE time had struggles to lift even small objects. During Luke's combat with Palpatine she was described both in comics and audio book as seeing light and dark confronting each other, there was not a single mention about her empowering him in any way. You made that up entirely. And even, if she could empower him, are you saying that it would be enough to overpower Palpatine? Impossible, because Palpatine's power was more, than both twins together. And more important is that Luke won not by overpowering but by winning combat, so power is irrelevant.

Then how is Leia performing Force Harmony with Luke?

And how is Leia performing Battle Meditation?

Originally posted by Arhael
You are messed up. One does get broke by embracing darkside.

Really?

By your logic, all Sith are broke because they embrace the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Revan got mind dominated because of being exposed to darkside on first place.

Correction: Vitiate broke Revan. Dark side did not broke Revan.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope, you are messing up. He wanted to learn darkside to understand how to defeat it, not embracing it. And he chose that pass because he wasn't confident in himself. By accepting lessons from Emperor he got consumed by darkside.

Actually the return of Palpatine stunned Luke. He understood that he could not challenge and defeat Palpatine by himself. Therefore, he decided to join the Sith and plot from within.

This;

No longer the impulsive youth at war with his own anger, Luke Skywalker faced a moment of great decision. He believed he had to use the Emperor's own knowledge of the dark side against him. (Source: The Essential Chronology)

Luke did embrace the dark side willingly;

Skywalker told her that his destiny had led him to the dark side, which he felt was the only path to save the Galaxy. (Source: The Essential Chronology)

And Luke was not broke. He was confident until he fought Palpatine directly.

Originally posted by Arhael
My evidence is darknest book 3. It is available for you to open and read.

Yes. I have rechecked it.

Actually Luke had past history with Unu'Thul and his family. This made it possible for him to counter the attempts of Unu'Thul to manipulate him. Each time Unu'Thul attempted to enforce his will on Luke, the Jedi made him realize about his past history with him, and Unu'Thul stopped.

Finally, when Luke and Unu'Thul met in person, they resorted to taunts.

In the start;

Spoiler:
"It's not too late to surrender." Luke started forward at a walk.

"I'm not eager to do this."

Raynar's burn-scarred lips twitched in a faint hint of a smile. "We are."

Raynar raised his lightsaber and jumped onto the carnage heap.

Later on;

"Your days as UnuThul are done, Raynar. It's time to surrender and come home." (Luke to Unu'Thul during combat)

During the actual combat, their was no telepathic bombardment from Unu'Thul. In the end, Luke overpowered Unu'Thul and forced his will upon the latter through inverse Dun Moch.

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree but not in case with Thul.

Covered above.

Originally posted by Arhael
What exactly it validates? Did Naryss got weaker from that? She gave lightning powerful enough to kill her.

Recheck my original point:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their are several techniques to influence the mind of the opponent. Some are more effective then others.

And if you are talking about Nyriss, then she got owned after Revan used her own power against her.

Originally posted by Arhael
It validates nothing. It was just a useless statement I started making fun on.

Useless rant.

Originally posted by Arhael
He needs to break will first. He couldn't read Revan's mind for 300 years. Which by default means he would know nothing about Luke during fight.

Vitiate got all the answers he needed with passage of time. However, this happened very slowly because Revan put up incredible resistance. Revan' sources of strength were Meetra Surik and memories of his family.

And you cannot compare the situation of Luke with that of Revan. The latter has history with Vitiate but Luke does not.

More? You can again consider the example of Unu'Thul. Luke had history with Unu'Thul and this made it possible for him to resist attempts to dominate his will by the latter. Understand now?

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
Cowardice is the most valid point. When I was coward, I was getting punched in face and humiliated. When I got brave, I kicked asses of the very same bullies. Same principle in star wars. Lomi Plo was kicking Luke's ass the whole trilogy until the end. She was invisible to him. She was constantly draining life from him making him weaker. One time she exposed his fear for Mara and Jacen's lives and made him freeze in one place(and this is not exaggeration). But then he got read of his doubts, restored confidence, had not fear and Lomi is suddenly visible and later in four pieces.

You cannot use real life example to support your argument for Star Wars. In real life, you were not contending with any telepathic powers and neither your opponents were capable of dominating your mind with such powers. Silly analogy from you.

As far as example of Luke is concerned; it is interesting. Yes, self-control gives you focus and mental stability. However, Lomi Plo is no Vitiate when it comes to manipulating individuals. Once again, where is the telepathic bombardment?

Originally posted by Arhael
I have no delusions about Luke being invincible as he lost plenty of fights to much weaker foes both in skill and in power. However, you have delusion that your Vitiate will be able to mind dominate someone of Luke's caliber, which means that he could mind dominate anyone. He was fighting Jedi Knight 1x1. Why didn't he mind dominate him then?

You are having delusions. I have supported most of my assertions with evidence. Time for you to concede and move on. Vitiate did broke the main hero during first encounter. However, the main hero managed to break free from his influence through external help. Luke does not have this luxury in this fight. Sorry.

Originally posted by Arhael
Stop saying underestimate. I am not underestimating anyone. But at the same time I not gonna give a single more credit to Revan, then to Luke, Yoda, Exile, Jedi Knight or any other powerful individuals with strong will. And most important I won't accept your opinion of Vitiate being able to mess up mind of anyone, especially, when he ended up having his mind messed up.

Vitiate ended up with his mind messed up? Is this a joke? Dude, Vitiate invaded the Republic and also put his personal plans in motion in the background. Are you really following the story of SWTOR?

Also, it is not necessary for Luke to be exceptionally good in every aspect of life and Force. Enough with the unnecessary hype of Luke. Every character has strengths and weaknesses.

My assessment is that Vitiate can defeat Luke. However, for Luke to defeat Vitiate, he has to gain knowledge about him. Knowledge is power.

Arhael Devoid of reality

So being a Jedi makes an individual immune to mental influence? Is this why Vitiate managed to mind-dominate many Jedi? 🙄
No, but pure Jedi had much better chance to resist, than Sith. General Sith are selfish and fear more powerful oponents. If they fear, Vitiate can easily expose it. They simply wouldn't dare to confront him. Although, they could but they confront only, when they know that they are more powerful. Sith like Palpatine, Malgus, Bane .e.g are as exceptional as Vititate. While Scourge is a typical example of general Sith, who always measure strength of oponent and, if oponent is more powerful, he simply piece his pants and surrender.

Don't confuse story arc with lack of capability.

Don't confuse lack of "display" of capabilities with lack of those capabilities in general.

When did Abeloth attempted to dominate the mind of Luke?
Lake of Apparitions. It was dream, so it was on mental level. She attempted to consume his spirit and he was strong enough to break from it. Apart from that Luke touched her mind like Scourge and, frankly, didn't start crouching and convulsing on the floor like Scourge.
I assume you expect book to describe Luke straggling to resist "telepathic bombardment", well, apparently he didn't have to struggle.

"You are mine. Servants. Slaves. Weapons. And you will obey... (Vitiate to the Jedi Strike Team after defeating it)

Exactly, AFTER. It is much easier to mind dominate unconscious person with their mental guard down. And you can't know, if he started mind dominating at that point or not. It could be just words, which they likely are.

Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves.
AHAHAHAHA 🤣 And you dare to say I am over hyping? How could you possibly know that? Simultaneously Force lightning, breaking will and mind domination? 💃
You proved nothing and only made me laugh ones more.

Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him.
This statement is about non-Force users in general. Sith council for instance wasn't under his spell. although, some of them could.

Get the picture now?
Ye, I get the picture of your fanaticism for Vitiate.

"Nathema was just the beginning,"[/I] Scourge agreed.[quote]
Opinion of Naryss and Scourge.

[quote]These rituals were significantly boosting Vitiate' personal power. You cannot get more twisted then this.

Twisted on what? He performed such ritual ones and never did it again over millennia. Why not to consume another 4-5 remote planets then, if it would help him so much?

Then how is Leia performing Force Harmony with Luke?[quote]
She did it with assistance from Luke. They twin affinity was another factor. And it was one time achievement she was able to do due to circumstances. Blue glow was emanating from them, so it can even be considered as oneness. And it still doesn't help Luke defeating Palpatine, since they did it after duel.

[quote]And how is Leia performing Battle Meditation?

It is not battle meditation, it is sensing through the Force.

By your logic, all Sith are broke because they embrace the dark side.
By my logic Luke didn't have experience to use his anger and darkside in general to defeat Palpatine, he only exposed himself to Palpatine's mind influence and got his mind twisted very same way as Anakin. It is proved by Luke loosing duel first fight and winning second.

Correction: Vitiate broke Revan. Dark side did not broke Revan.
Vitiate broke Revan because of all dark emotions Revan had in him. When Jedi gets close to darkside, it is his most vulnerable point in life as strength coming from Jedi teachings weakens and a lot of effort is spend on controlling dark emotions instead of using them to gain strength.

Luke did embrace the dark side willingly;
Ok, agree. But Sith from Luke is same embarrassment as from Anakin.

And Luke was not broke. He was confident until he fought Palpatine directly.
Confidence of Sith apprentice...


Finally, when Luke and Unu'Thul met in person, they resorted to taunts.

"as Luke felt it, it began to press down inside, urging him to turn back." - mental pressure. If Luke was weak minded, he would simply turn and go.

"His murky presence wrenched free, and the heaviness vanished from inside Luke's chest." - it means that Luke was mentally pressured all along.

You cannot use real life example to support your argument for Star Wars. In real life, you were not contending with any telepathic powers and neither your opponents were capable of dominating your mind with such powers. Silly analogy from you.
Very same analogy is evidenced in star wars, silly of you to not see that.

However, Lomi Plo is no Vitiate when it comes to manipulating individuals. Once again, where is the telepathic bombardment?
Lomi Plo was master of manipulating individuals in her own way. You need to see telepathic bombardment in everything?
Where is telepathic bombardment in Jedi Knight vs Vitiate? Why did Vitiate preferred your favorite Dun Moch instead?

Vitiate ended up with his mind messed up? Is this a joke? Dude, Vitiate invaded the Republic and also put his personal plans in motion in the background. Are you really following the story of SWTOR?
The whole TOR happened 300 years later because of Revan. So, yes, Vitiate did get his mind messed up, confirmed by Revan personally. Republic and Sith made piece agreement, how sane is that for a Sith? xD

Also, it is not necessary for Luke to be exceptionally good in every aspect of life and Force. Enough with the unnecessary hype of Luke. Every character has strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, Luke wasn't good at everything. He couldn't defend against Force lightning with bare hands . 😉 I am not over hyping Luke and can name plenty of other Jedi that would be capable do defend against mind domination.

My assessment is that Vitiate can defeat Luke. However, for Luke to defeat Vitiate, he has to gain knowledge about him. Knowledge is power.
Luke has knowledge about Palpatine, while Palpatine gained knowledge about Vitiate. Moreover Luke has his own knowledge Vitiate doesn't have, so it can be other way around as well.
And what exactly new is there about Vitiate, that Luke never faced?

Arhael Devoid of reality

Apologies for broken quotes.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Yeah you should be douchebage. >:C

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah you should be douchebage. >:C

No, I will never turn to the douchebaging! 😇

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
No, but pure Jedi had much better chance to resist, than Sith. General Sith are selfish and fear more powerful oponents. If they fear, Vitiate can easily expose it. They simply wouldn't dare to confront him. Although, they could but they confront only, when they know that they are more powerful. Sith like Palpatine, Malgus, Bane .e.g are as exceptional as Vititate. While Scourge is a typical example of general Sith, who always measure strength of oponent and, if oponent is more powerful, he simply piece his pants and surrender.

You are backtracking from your actual point now. You claimed that it is impossible to mind-dominate a Jedi and now you are saying that a Jedi have good chance to resist. Do me a favor, make up your mind first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't confuse lack of "display" of capabilities with lack of those capabilities in general.

Lame argument. Try better.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lake of Apparitions. It was dream, so it was on mental level. She attempted to consume his spirit and he was strong enough to break from it. Apart from that Luke touched her mind like Scourge and, frankly, didn't start crouching and convulsing on the floor like Scourge.
I assume you expect book to describe Luke straggling to resist "telepathic bombardment", well, apparently he didn't have to struggle.

Interesting. Provide details.

Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly, AFTER. It is much easier to mind dominate unconscious person with their mental guard down. And you can't know, if he started mind dominating at that point or not. It could be just words, which they likely are.

This is your personal opinion! Not an established fact. My understanding is that Vitiate broke them first. His statement seems to indicate so. Otherwise, he may have said that 'now I am going to turn you all in to my servants' or something on similar lines.

Originally posted by Arhael
AHAHAHAHA 🤣 And you dare to say I am over hyping? How could you possibly know that? Simultaneously Force lightning, breaking will and mind domination? 💃
You proved nothing and only made me laugh ones more.

Are you a kid? You can't see telepathic powers in action.

Originally posted by Arhael
This statement is about non-Force users in general.

Not necessarily. Those who serve him - is the point here. Not normal beings. Nyriss then proceeded to give the example of Revan to support her point. Is English so hard for you to understand?

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, I get the picture of your fanaticism for Vitiate.

He is not my favorite. Your claim has no merit.

Originally posted by Arhael
Twisted on what? He performed such ritual ones and never did it again over millennia. Why not to consume another 4-5 remote planets then, if it would help him so much?

Because he did not wanted to reveal his true nature to his followers. Remember that Nathema was forbidden to visit? However, he was going to repeat Nathema once his plans were set in motion during KoTOR period.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not battle meditation, it is sensing through the Force.

Wookieepedia disagrees.

Originally posted by Arhael
By my logic Luke didn't have experience to use his anger and darkside in general to defeat Palpatine, he only exposed himself to Palpatine's mind influence and got his mind twisted very same way as Anakin. It is proved by Luke loosing duel first fight and winning second.

No, by your logic every Sith should be broke by embracing the dark side. Once again, make up your mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate broke Revan because of all dark emotions Revan had in him. When Jedi gets close to darkside, it is his most vulnerable point in life as strength coming from Jedi teachings weakens and a lot of effort is spend on controlling dark emotions instead of using them to gain strength.

Revan is just one case and you cannot use this example to generalize about the whole matter. Those 4 Jedi who fell to him centuries later were not close to the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, agree. But Sith from Luke is same embarrassment as from Anakin.

Good.

Originally posted by Arhael
Confidence of Sith apprentice...

Elaborate please. Luke wasn't scared.

Originally posted by Arhael
"as Luke felt it, it began to press down inside, urging him to turn back." - mental pressure. If Luke was weak minded, he would simply turn and go.

"His murky presence wrenched free, and the heaviness vanished from inside Luke's chest." - it means that Luke was mentally pressured all along.


Don't play tricks with me amateur. Luke did not resisted Unu'Thul. He just put his history in front of him in response and Unu'Thul stopped in his tracks.

Originally posted by Arhael
Very same analogy is evidenced in star wars, silly of you to not see that.

No, it is not. Do those bullies have telepathic powers?

Originally posted by Arhael
Lomi Plo was master of manipulating individuals in her own way. You need to see telepathic bombardment in everything?

Vitiate can bombard his opponents with his telepathic powers. This is the difference. His powers work like weapons of combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
Where is telepathic bombardment in Jedi Knight vs Vitiate? Why did Vitiate preferred your favorite Dun Moch instead?

You can't see telepathic powers in action. They don't have colors. However, statements of several individuals who interacted with the Jedi Knight and his own actions as a pawn of Vitiate for a long time - are sufficient evidences.

Originally posted by Arhael
The whole TOR happened 300 years later because of Revan. So, yes, Vitiate did get his mind messed up, confirmed by Revan personally. Republic and Sith made piece agreement, how sane is that for a Sith? xD

No, Revan succeeded in delaying the inevitable. He was certainly adept in the arts of manipulation - this I give to him. However, Vitiate could not be dissuaded from his plans and neither he was mentally dominated. He engaged Revan for long because he wanted to learn as much about the Republic as possible before he would make his move. He did not intended to repeat the mistake of the Great Hyperspace War. He was playing safe like any intelligent leader would.

In addition, the peace agreement was a ruse. The sacking of Coruscant happened during the time of negotiations. The Sith Empire lost Aldeeran but it took Coruscant to gain leverage during the negotiations.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, Luke wasn't good at everything. He couldn't defend against Force lightning with bare hands . 😉

Plus point for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not over hyping Luke and can name plenty of other Jedi that would be capable do defend against mind domination.

None of them stand a chance 'on their own' against masters of manipulation.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke has knowledge about Palpatine, while Palpatine gained knowledge about Vitiate. Moreover Luke has his own knowledge Vitiate doesn't have, so it can be other way around as well.
And what exactly new is there about Vitiate, that Luke never faced?

Having knowledge about Palpatine is not enough. In addition, Vitiate has incredible experience under his belt for understanding Jedi.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is your personal opinion! Not an established fact. My understanding is that Vitiate broke them first. His statement seems to indicate so. Otherwise, he may have said that 'now I am going to turn you all in to my servants' or something on similar lines.

Are you a kid? You can't see telepathic powers in action.

In other words you can't prove that he telepathically dominated them in that scene. His statement doesn't imply that he did even a fraction of how much you want it to. As in it doesn't imply that at all.

I get what you're saying with the ambiguousness of the scene but you have to understand that it works both ways. You think that he did telepathically assault them in that scene? Well prove it. Because your personal opinion means bupkis in a versus thread unless you can support it with evidence.

RE: Blaxican #gottem

bupkis?

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Its a word.