Originally posted by Nephthys
In other words you can't prove that he telepathically dominated them in that scene. His statement doesn't imply that he did even a fraction of how much you want it to. As in it doesn't imply that at all.I get what you're saying with the ambiguousness of the scene but you have to understand that it works both ways. You think that he did telepathically assault them in that scene? Well prove it. Because your personal opinion means bupkis in a versus thread unless you can support it with evidence.
Somebody help me please. 😕
You are backtracking from your actual point now. You claimed that it is impossible to mind-dominate a Jedi and now you are saying that a Jedi have good chance to resist. Do me a favor, make up your mind first.I am not backtracking. I never said "a" Jedi. I said about Jedi who are purely on lightside. In other words Jedi that overcame all their demons long ago, in other words Jedi like Luke, Yoda, Exile, Windu e.g.
Lame argument. Try better.
Interesting. Provide details.I am not wasting hours for digging through electronic book on my mobile phone.
This is your personal opinion! Not an established fact. My understanding is that Vitiate broke them first. His statement seems to indicate so. Otherwise, he may have said that 'now I am going to turn you all in to my servants' or something on similar lines.
Are you a kid? You can't see telepathic powers in action.
There are plenty of planets he could do the same thing to and than forbid to visit. Fact: Nathema was the only planet consumed and he never tried to repeat it even after his plans were set in motion.
Because he did not wanted to reveal his true nature to his followers. Remember that Nathema was forbidden to visit? However, he was going to repeat Nathema once his plans were set in motion during KoTOR period.
Wookieepedia disagrees.It is evidenced neither in comics nor in audio book.
No, by your logic every Sith should be broke by embracing the dark side. Once again, make up your mind.
Revan is just one case and you cannot use this example to generalize about the whole matter. Those 4 Jedi who fell to him centuries later were not close to the dark side.Yes, they weren't close to darkside, that is why he had to defeat them with Force lightning, so he could dominate them later with their mental guard down.
Elaborate please. Luke wasn't scared.What else to elaborate on? Trying to win using darkside, when your experience in it is measured by days is just stupid.
Don't play tricks with me amateur. Luke did not resisted Unu'Thul. He just put his history in front of him in response and Unu'Thul stopped in his tracks.Which only shows how good Luke is. Tricks? You are trying to strip Luke of all his achievements by giving lame excuses, while at the same time trying to equal Vitiate to god by giving even more lame arguments.
No, it is not. Do those bullies have telepathic powers?They had more strength(more power) 😉.
Vitiate can bombard his opponents with his telepathic powers. This is the difference. His powers work like weapons of combat.Really? That's why he use Force lightning against 4 Jedi instead of his telepathic bombardment? That is why later against Jedi Knight he used, Force lightning, Force illusions and then again Force lightning and Dun Moch through whole scenario?
You can't see telepathic powers in action. They don't have colors. However, statements of several individuals who interacted with the Jedi Knight and his own actions as a pawn of Vitiate for a long time - are sufficient evidences.Yes, I can't see. What I saw is that non of them got mind dominated during combat.
No, Revan succeeded in delaying the inevitable. He was certainly adept in the arts of manipulation - this I give to him. However, Vitiate could not be dissuaded from his plans and neither he was mentally dominated.
Plus point for Vitiate.Nope. Luke is comfortable at absorbing lightning with lightsaber. Even without lightsaber a nightsister attempted to electrocute him but he started jumping around and lightning harmlessly dissipated.
None of them stand a chance 'on their own' against masters of manipulation.Which is your opinion only. All of them stand a chance against master of manipulations as did Revan and Jedi Knight.
Having knowledge about Palpatine is not enough. In addition, Vitiate has incredible experience under his belt for understanding Jedi.Palpatine had much greater understanding of Jedi as he infiltrated Goverment and was communicating with Jedi on regular basis, while your Vitiate spent whole millenia hiding on remote planet using advantage of being imbued by darkside nexus surrounding him.
All Luke needs to know is that Vitiate must be stopped. Darkside is darkside in any form, whether it is Sith or Abeloth or monkey lizard.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not backtracking. I never said "a" Jedi. I said about Jedi who are purely on lightside. In other words Jedi that overcame all their demons long ago, in other words Jedi like Luke, Yoda, Exile, Windu e.g.
Tol Braga (SWTOR) was also an ideal Jedi. He was a role model for the whole Order, as apparent from his codex entry:
Respectfully referred to as "the conscience of the Jedi Order," Master Tol Braga is a thoughtful scholar, a wise strategist and an avowed pacifist. His greatest achievement as a Jedi to date was when he dueled Sith Lord Darth Sajar to a draw--and then convinced the enemy to abandon the path of darkness and train as a Jedi.
Vitiate broke even this kind of Jedi who was so deep in the Light Side, and more notably a powerful one.
Do the math now.
Originally posted by Arhael
You try better in convincing me that Vitiate is better, than her at least in anything. Entire fleet of Gavar Kai fell under her influence and took her side. She just broke away from imprisonment and by Apocalypse is already in charge of all Sith and is Galactic Alliance Chief of State. While your Vitiate was thinking over millenia and started war he could never win.
However, Vitiate also has demonstrated the capability to unleash extremely lethal blasts of Force Lightning. I have not seen this from Abeloth yet. If I am missing any update then let me know.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not wasting hours for digging through electronic book on my mobile phone.
Originally posted by Arhael
How can you talk about my personal opinion if all your conclusions are based entirely on your opinion?
The only evidence video provides is that he used Force lightning to defeat them, that's it.
Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly, I can't see but somehow you can see, since you said: "Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves."
Originally posted by Arhael
There are plenty of planets he could do the same thing to and than forbid to visit. Fact: Nathema was the only planet consumed and he never tried to repeat it even after his plans were set in motion.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is evidenced neither in comics nor in audio book.
LEIA: "I don't need a blaster. Not with what I've just learned about Jedi Battle Meditation." (Source: The Empire's End)
Originally posted by Arhael
Are you gonna tell me what my logic is? And yes, people like Luke and Anakin should be broke to embrace darkside as they are good personalities by nature and as Sith they would never be as powerful as Palpatine because the good in them cannot be eradicated completely.
Your point is not valid for all; a good example is Exar Kun.
Their are similar examples of other individuals who were once Jedi but became more powerful and also accomplished more after embracing the dark side.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, they weren't close to darkside, that is why he had to defeat them with Force lightning, so he could dominate them later with their mental guard down.
Originally posted by Arhael
What else to elaborate on? Trying to win using darkside, when your experience in it is measured by days is just stupid.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which only shows how good Luke is. Tricks? You are trying to strip Luke of all his achievements by giving lame excuses, while at the same time trying to equal Vitiate to god by giving even more lame arguments.
Originally posted by Arhael
They had more strength(more power) 😉.
Originally posted by Arhael
Really? That's why he use Force lightning against 4 Jedi instead of his telepathic bombardment? That is why later against Jedi Knight he used, Force lightning, Force illusions and then again Force lightning and Dun Moch through whole scenario?
What Vitiate did during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight is invalid example as well. Vitiate' second confrontation with Revan reveals that he can again attempt to dominate his opponent with his telepathic powers.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I can't see. What I saw is that non of them got mind dominated during combat.
Originally posted by Arhael
Like I was saying Revan mind dominated Vitiate. You arguing nothing.
Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Luke is comfortable at absorbing lightning with lightsaber. Even without lightsaber a nightsister attempted to electrocute him but he started jumping around and lightning harmlessly dissipated.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which is your opinion only. All of them stand a chance against master of manipulations as did Revan and Jedi Knight.
Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine had much greater understanding of Jedi as he infiltrated Goverment and was communicating with Jedi on regular basis, while your Vitiate spent whole millenia hiding on remote planet using advantage of being imbued by darkside nexus surrounding him.
Originally posted by Arhael
All Luke needs to know is that Vitiate must be stopped. Darkside is darkside in any form, whether it is Sith or Abeloth or monkey lizard.
It might not be possible to manipulate a pure Jedi but my focus is on telepathic powers.That's why he was defeated with Force lightning. Mind domination came after with his mental guard down. In case of Revan I actually need to give a lot of credit to Meetra Surik.Tol Braga (SWTOR) was also an ideal Jedi. He was a role model for the whole Order, as apparent from his codex entry:
Respectfully referred to as "the conscience of the Jedi Order," Master Tol Braga is a thoughtful scholar, a wise strategist and an avowed pacifist. His greatest achievement as a Jedi to date was when he dueled Sith Lord Darth Sajar to a draw--and then convinced the enemy to abandon the path of darkness and train as a Jedi.
Vitiate broke even this kind of Jedi who was so deep in the Light Side, and more notably a powerful one.
Vitiate isn't much different from Abeloth in capabilities. Like her, Vitiate is capable of creating illusions, transfer his essense, unleash blasts of energy, drain his opponents, and mentally influence his opponents.Abeloth didn't create any illusions in books. Blasts of energy? Are you talking about Force pushes again? 😆 Abeloth could create nuclear bomb out of alive Sith though. xD Force lightning is not news. If we compare Vitiate in terms of Force power, then Vitiate isn't much different to Palpatine in capabilities.
Then what is point for this debate?Honestly, I don't know. Good way to discuss Star Wars as I don't have much fan friends in real life. 😉
I have explained why. Simple explanation is that you cannot see telepathic powers in action. They don't have colors. You judge their impact on the basis of comments of the characters. I have provided examples. Focus on them.It's ridiculous to assume that he would be capable to use Force lightning strong enough to make 4 Jedi struggle and at the same time telepathically bombard them.
I am not arguing against that. My point is that he did not mind dominate them in combat.
The comments of several characters support my point. Vitiate broke those Jedi and controlled them through his telepathic powers for a long time. If videos (provided by me) are not sufficient to convince you then consult Drew Karpyshyn in this regard.
Repeat of Nathema like event again and again would not have gone unnoticed for a long time. Nathema itself did not remained unnoticed. After the great hyperspace war, Vitiate was not willing to seek confrontation with the Jedi anytime soon. However, during the Great Galactic War, Vitiate was planning to conduct a Nathema like feat on Belsavis to gain more power.His plans last millenia. 💃
LEIA: "I don't need a blaster. Not with what I've just learned about Jedi Battle Meditation." (Source: The Empire's End )I am proud of her. 😉
Then try to explain your point better like you did now.you could at least mention Dooku or Jacen, Exar Kun is the worth example. Selfish and arrogant from the beginning, obsessed with hunger for knowledge to gain more power. In what way was he good personality? Anakin might have been arrogant and easy to get angered, yet, was he selfish? Was he obsessed in learning new powers? Did he have any ambitions? The only his selfishness was in fear for loosing Padme but can you blame him for it? And what love story Exar Kun had? He was bad person right from the beginning, I made effort in searching at least some goodness in his personality and you know what? I found none.Your point is not valid for all; a good example is Exar Kun.
Their are similar examples of other individuals who were once Jedi but became more powerful and also accomplished more after embracing the dark side.
Your point is good but my point is that Luke wasn't broke prior to confrontation with Sidious. He was confident.He was struggling not to be consumed by darkness completely, at least Wookieepedia says so. Otherwise we both can only assume.
No, it is a bad example for you to consider in this debate. Luke' past history with UnuThul is the key point here. But Luke has no history with Vitiate. How will Luke convince Vitiate to stop? He can't.He will just put up mental barrier, which is easier. In worth case he can make his Force presence smaller and dodge his mental bombardment like Verger. Or even easier, he can Force push Vitiate like Revan.
Not a good argument. I am talking about telepathic powers.They used Dun Moch on me. 😉
What Vitiate did during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight is invalid example as well. Vitiate' second confrontation with Revan reveals that he can again attempt to dominate his opponent with his telepathic powers.How is it invalid? Plenty of time to dominate Jedi Knight, while he was having fun fighting illusions.
Your assumption. Not an established fact.Not assumption. Visually established fact that they fell to Force lightning. And your laughable assumption is that he was mind dominating at the same time simultaneously all of them.
It was not mind-domination. Revan was not controlling Vitiate. Howeverm Revan did manipulate Vitiate but the latter eventually overcame him after a long struggle.You don't get it, do you?
A nightsister matches the power of Vitiate? This is not even funny.I didn't match anything. If we talk about matching, then Luke was absorbing lightning into lightsaber from two sisters simultaneously.
Prove it. Revan and the Jedi Knight themselves fell to Vitiate. They succeeded in breaking from Vitiate' grasp through external help.Correction. Only Revan. Jedi Knight fell to Force lightning, he didn't have chance resisting mind domination like Revan.
Here is a hint for you; children of the Emperor. These individuals served as the eyes and ears of Vitiate. The Emperor used these individuals to learn a great deal about the Republic and also the Jedi.Apparently didn't learn match over his millenia, I see no cleverness in leading open war.
Stopping Vitiate is the hard part though.Like stopping Sith Lords was ever easy. 😉