Lord Vitiate vs Gauntlet

By phrase; Force manipulation - do you assume 'mind domination' or 'Force powers'?

C'boath; Luke was stronger then him.

Palpatine; Luke succeeded in defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel once and this two with aid from Leia via 'Force harmony' technique.

In terms of Force powers, their was no comparison. Palpatine had much greater command of the Force.

Nyax; Luke did not killed this individual or am I missing something? 😕

Unu'Thul; while this individual was no ordinary Force-user; he is still an overhyped piece of shit. Luke is considerably stronger then him.

And abeloth is far more powerful then him.

She actually made a joke out of him in combat situations. Her greatest limitation is the bodies which she possesses. She can kill Luke, if she wants to but wastes chances.

He did resisted to the best of his efforts but succeeded on few occasions.

They faced some guards who were killed by StealthX aircraft. Correct me, if I am reading another incident.

No. They were born out of fanboyism and misleading information presented by fanboys. Not accusing you of anything though.

Being clever is not enough. This is one of Solo' methods for overcoming his shortcomings.

However, Vitiate is more powerful and dangerous then Caedus. He can exploit Luke' mental condition in a manner that no other can do. He can use this to his advantage.

Arhael
I red each book with Luke and, seriously, he is described there as the most powerful in EU and by far.

No.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Dear God, why?
I know some of this must be because I'm ancient in KMC-years, but your tenacity is exhausting to even me, the reader.

If you keep this up, you'll blow your load on SWL and end up jaded and embittered and flirting with Nephthys.

There are worse fates. :3

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
The British Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history? You are a brilliant example of the failure of our public schools.

Yes, Mongol Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history. I accept the error on my part in understanding your statement.

Now can we discuss Star Wars?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Oh my god! A Jedi impressed Revan! This somehow matters! Did you know that Yoda "holds you [Obi-Wan] in such high esteem". This must mean that AotC Obi-Wan is superior to Palpatine. Or, Luke Skywalker was impressed how Vestara Khai's bladework in Backlash, so this must put the 16 year old sith girl above Darth Sidious as well.

A person can be respected and admired for a variety of reasons and not just skills.

Anyways, my intended point is that this Jedi Knight is very powerful too and Bioware intends to promote him/her as such. His case is similar to that of Revan.

Revan' fans faced lot of blacklash for promoting him as one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos. I am not surprised that same story may repeat with this new Jedi. You are already a critic.

Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Assuming that you take "million pieces" literally (despite being one of the most common figure of speeches in the English language, and despite the dubious assumption that Revan, whose PoV it was from, could instantly recognize a droid in millions of pieces from thousands), this means that Lord Vitiate can destroy the defenseless droid!

You wanted quantification of the quote - I provided the canonical statement to give you an idea. Focus on the CONTEXT of the points. Don't try to ASSUME my THOUGHTS.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You don't think that Count Dooku has been described in the same flowery language? What about Yoda "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?" The statement "enormous command of the Force" is no more descriptive or relevant than your rebuttal. Agen Kolar was also described as a celebrated swordsman; could he beat Vitiate in a lightsaber duel?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So the conclusion that you get from this reasoning is that Vitiate can mind dominate Sidious. Really, this train of thought is so unbelievably stupid, I can scarcely believe you are being serious.

1. Vitiate mind dominated four powerful Jedi.
2. "Each had different strengths and weaknesses"
3. "Two of them were very strong at least"
4. He dominated them at once, so that's impressive.
...
5. Therefore, he could dominate Sidious!

Where did you get to point five? How powerful in relation to Sidious are these four jedi? 50%? 60%? How powerful is "powerful"? By this same logic...

Do you think that Sidious' defensive capabilities would be relatively greater then the defensive capabilities of all those Jedi put together? This is not necessary regardless of his power.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
1. Sidious defeated three of the greatest duelists in the Order in a matter of seconds
2. Each of these swordsmen had "different strengths and weaknesses.
3. They were all "very strong", at least.
4. Sidious did them to all of them sequentially, effectively at once.
...
5. Therefore, Sidious could pwn Vitiate within seconds!

...

By all means, your example proves that Sidious is fast and deadly with a lightsaber. It does not proves that he is immune to Force powers too.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So anybody with "some feats" and "well-developed abilities" can defeat Palpatine. Let's see...AotC Anakin has "some feats" (jumping off of a moving airspeeder, falling thousands of meters and grabbing onto another, timing it exactly, and not dying, for one), and "well-developed abilities (we see plenty of screen time with him, plus we have the novels and various EU sources around that time).

So, obviously, Anakin in Attack of the Clones can defeat Palpatine.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In case if this isn't getting through to you, my point is that "very powerful" and "enormously powerful" are not good indicators of power relative to other powerful beings. "Powerful" could range from an above average Jedi Master to Luke Skywalker. All you have proven in all of your various flowery quotes is that Lord Vitiate is one powerful mother. But never do you explain how this allows him to defeat RotS Sidious, or DE Sidious, or Luke, or Abeloth.

Vitiate has demonstrated exceptional command of mind tricks. He can use his mind dominating powers as a weapon in combat situations, which can take any unsuspecting opponent by surprise. Vitiate can sow confusion and fear in to the minds of his opponents or demoralize them. He can even create illusions of combatants with the Force. These abilities can grant Vitiate early advantage in combat situations.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Ah, what do we have you? I not so subtly ask you to substantiate your claim that newer sources override older ones, and you completely miss the ridiculously simplistic question, and answer with your point is?

I'll take this as a concession that you don't have evidence to support your claim, and that you were just pulling shit out of your arse. The alternative is that your reading comprehension is terrible enough so that you can't read into implied questions to even the slightest extent.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Hey look; I ask you to quantify a statement, and you respond by...mentioning that there is a "disturbance (in the air)" and the "damage it caused to the opponent". Funny how making a "disturbance (in the air)" puts you above Palpatine, who turned an entire planet into a dark side infested wasteland, or how causing "damage" satisfies the request of quantifying the quote.

Sidious certainly possesses the power to kill any opponent. However, things are not so simple in a close range combat situation.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Just among some of the stupid shit in your response. I'll respond to the rest later. And you feel the need to flame somebody who just joined the board yesterday, without cause. How welcoming of you. What's more, I didn't really nitpick most of these. I literally chose random statements you made, and they were all stupid. Amazing.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Do not make the mistakes of others, my son. You have conquered your adversary, that much is obvious.

Yes, I have faced criticism for my perceptions but a lot of my points have been proven by now.

And this member (Rogue Gladiator) has conquered no one. His logic is extremely flawed and his claims are filled with errors. You youself pointed out one such error. And I thank you for this.

No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.

Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members by himself (confirmed by Scourge). This alone is sufficient indication of his combat capabilities.

He probably electrocuted them. Even strong Lords are mostly unable to defend against Force lightning. (Proved by Scourge and Naryss)
The Sith are cowards by nature. Even if some of them were powerful enough to fight him, they simply would piss their pants and defenselessly numb in one place. Scourge was pissing his pants entire novel.
They are certainly were caught offguard. Even Yoda couldn't absorb Force lightning at the begging of the fight.

Palpatine himself was mind dominating people and even Jedi. Kam Solusar mind dominated, until Luke have broken the spell. Luke himself was mind dominated just before final fight.

There are plenty of evidence that Palpatine is as powerful as Vitiate (imho more powerful).

The only difference is that Vitiate managed to make himself immortal. But Palpatine's power became so immense and destructive that his body and all subsequent clone bodies started failing and decaying. His original body he managed to sustain by draining life of millions beings from Byss planet. Towards DE his power was much more destructive, than Vitiate's.

Assuming that Vitiate would mind dominate Palpatine is just pathetic.

No.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.

It is one of those contests TOR vs book reader. starwars

I haven't seen broken Bold coding like that since Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anything what possibly can go. Defending against Force does not have to involve fighting it directly. Sometimes, it is more convenient to jump away.

For mind domination;

Luke never had exposure to mind dominating powers-as effective-as from Vitiate. In most of the cases, he faced Dun Moch.

Sidious is the only individual who managed to break Luke' will once but this happened after Luke had fallen and was subdued in a duel. Luke lost his confidence in these circumstances.

But Vitiate brings this game to a whole new level. Luke will be taken by surprise. At the very least, Vitiate can seriously mess up Luke' mental condition IMO.

Originally posted by Arhael
In terms of potential of course. But at that time Luke still had much to learn, C'baot had much more power. Darksiders are in general more powerful. Towards the end madness empowered him so much that there was huge tornado, which Luke and Mara couldn't counter in any way.

Originally posted by Arhael
Emm. Force harmony was after lightsaber duel to cut off his channeling. During duel she was just watching and see it as straggle of light and dark, the whole credit goes to Luke for that.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lea only helped Luke understand his mistake. Then Luke cast of darkside and after Palpatine had no control over him and would never have again.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is why I put him as example. Palpatine's power didn't help him in winning light saber duel.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyax's mind controlling was even stronger than Vitiate's. Plus, Luke was much weaker at that time because for many years he used Force only passively.

Originally posted by Arhael
This is getting ridiculous. I assume you didn't read those books.

People often confuse Dun Moch with (offensive) telepathic powers. Bad assumption.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is why I put her as example. Was she able to mind dominate him? Nope. She even tried to play on his feelings for Callista, which failed as well. Luke even allowed their minds to merge, then he not only didn't get consumed but reaped Callista's spirit off her. If Abeloth couldn't mind dominate him, no one could.

No where, did I get the impression (while reading Vortex) that she could use her telepathic powers to instantly break the will of any opponent during combat situation like Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
The only joke would be changing bodies but in combat she was getting her limbs chopped. Yes, she did waste couple of chances, so did Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's other way around. He succeeded on many occasions and lost on few.

Originally posted by Arhael
I guess you are. It happened on the planet with Death Seed. Vestara killed Tsil crystal in order to stun all those Sith and escape. Luke was Force drained after reaping Callista's spirit out of Abeloth essence.

Originally posted by Arhael
I red each book with Luke and, seriously, he is described there as the most powerful in EU and by far.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being clever is not the only thing. For starters he is Skywalker blood, which means that he, also, has got immense potential. The only his shortcoming was that he relied only on his inner power, unlike other Sith drawing on emotions of enemy and draining life energy. Yet, he explored his potential to its limits, became the most versatile Jedi/Sith of all time and gave Luke more problems, than all those Sith with much greater power.

Originally posted by Arhael
Exploiting mental condition? After Palpatine's failure this subject is closed, since he was same Vitiate but with lightsaber. It would be possible with Luke from first NJO books as he was much weaker in power.

- Nihilus demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Drain. It came natural to him.

- Vitiate demonstrated greatest proficiency in mind controlling powers. He shaped such powers in to (offensive) telepathic weapons of combat.

- Palpatine demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Storms. He absolutely mastered this power.

And vice versa.

Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth failed, which by default makes Vitiate fail.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke is no Revan with all that nonsense about balancing between light and dark. He even refused to Force choke Welk, while his lightsaber was broken. There is no darkness inside him, Vititate has nothing to expose.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke's mind is simply out of Vitiate's reach.

Unuthul did attempt to mentally dominate Luke in the first book iirc. And although Luke struggled, he resisted him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unuthul did attempt to mentally dominate Luke in the first book iirc. And although Luke struggled, he resisted him.

Its the first time they meet him when Luke, Leia and Han check out the Kiliks. At one point Unuthul looks at Luke and he feels an intense mental pressure that he barely resists. IIRC its ambiguous if he would have been successful if Unuthul had kept it up. I remember it because it made me sit up and see Unuthul as a legitimate threat.

Luke never had exposure to mind dominating powers-as effective-as from Vitiate.

You need to prove that Nyax' mind controlling is more effective.

Lord Nyax almost mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously without even trying to find weaknesses in their emotions. All three were pure lightsiders at the time, which makes it much harder to dominate them, than already corrupted Revan and Malak.

[quote]Sidious is the only individual who managed to break Luke' will once but this happened after Luke had fallen and was subdued in a duel. Luke lost his confidence in these circumstances.

But Vitiate brings this game to a whole new level. Luke will be taken by surprise. At the very least, Vitiate can seriously mess up Luke' mental condition IMO.

Can you provide details?

Leia was empowering him the whole time or am I missing something?

Because in a previous (fair) duel, Sidious clearly subdued Luke.

I have read books. Unu'Thul used Dun Moch against Luke and it did not work. Luke overpowered him and forced his opponent to obey him - sort of like what Sidious did to Luke long ago.

People often confuse Dun Moch with (offensive) telepathic powers. Bad assumption.

No where, did I get the impression (while reading Vortex) that she could use her telepathic powers to instantly break the will of any opponent during combat situation like Vitiate.

This is because the bodies that Abeloth possessed were getting destroyed in fights.

Seriously? Sidious proved to be a much greater headache for Luke to begin with.

- Nihilus demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Drain. It came natural to him.

- Vitiate demonstrated greatest proficiency in mind controlling powers. He shaped such powers in to an offensive weapon of combat.

- Palpatine demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Storms. He absolutely mastered this power.

Palpatine like Vitiate had plenty of mind-dominated minions and Sith. Luke is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, it obviously wasn't easy task to mind dominate him straight away.

Luke is also not above emotions. He can be exploited as Caedus showed.

Poor assumption.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the first time they meet him when Luke, Leia and Han check out the Kiliks. At one point Unuthul looks at Luke and he feels an intense mental pressure that he barely resists.

Unu'Thul has demonstrated proficiency in probing the minds of his opponents. When he did so to Luke, it took the combined might of several Jedi in preventing him from doing so.

However, from what I have been reading - Unu'Thul is not as proficient as Vitiate in using mind dominating powers to crush the will of others. Not even close. As an example, just a minor mental brush from Vitiate put Scourge on his knees who is also no ordinary Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lord Nyax almost mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously without even trying to find weaknesses in their emotions. All three were pure lightsiders at the time, which makes it much harder to dominate them, than already corrupted Revan and Malak.

Also, provide evidence of your arguments.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously Palpatine couldn't mind dominate him just like that. Vitiate was able to dominate Revan and Malak because they were close to darkness already.

Originally posted by Arhael
What level? There is no way to dominate powerful Jedi, if he hasn't got doubts, fear or other mental weaknesses.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you expecting me to search quotes from the book? 0_o

Originally posted by Arhael
You are missing the fact that she wasn't Jedi to learn such advance technique to empower someone, which not even majority of masters could perform. She simply helped him to break from Sidious control by convincing him on mental level.

Originally posted by Arhael
Then she was just watching. And only then they made twin harmony concentration to counter Palpatine's storm. It was Luke on his own defeating Palpatine in combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
That fight was in no way fair as Luke was consumed by darkness and his emotions were in mess. This fight and fight after brings the whole point of star wars moral that "You can't defeat darkness by darkness".

Originally posted by Arhael
Unu'Thul tried to bend his will directly with help of heave-mind. In turn Luke imposed his own will and was using Thul's own power against him. Kind of Aikido way and another example of overcoming more powerful foe.

Originally posted by Arhael
These things are interlaced. Revan was dominated because his emotions were in mess after war, otherwise it would be much harder.

Originally posted by Arhael
She didn't get any opportunity to try that. Each time she was outnumbered. She was gonna mind dominate Grand Lord of the Sith but after Luke reaped Callista out of her, he was able to expose that weakness and save his sanity that way.

Originally posted by Arhael
Like she could fight as a spirit. 😄

Originally posted by Arhael
How many injuries Luke had after fight with Palpatine? Exactly, non. How many he had after Jacen? Hard to count.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate and Palpatine both were as comfortable as Nihilus at draining life energy with difference that they weren't dependent on it. Vitiate was able to perform that ritual because of draining life ability he naturally possessed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine like Vitiate had plenty of mind-dominated minions and Sith. Luke is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, it obviously wasn't easy task to mind dominate him straight away.

Originally posted by Arhael
Family member torturing his son is as bad as it could get. But who Vitiate is for him? I hope he wouldn't try something like "Luke, I am your father!"

Imagine the SHOCK Luke will get, if Vitiate makes this statement. 😄

Luke to Vitiate; You too? 😈

Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Poor assumption of you to think that Vitiate can mind dominate any Jedi including son of chosen one simply because he was able to mind dominate and own your favorite Revan.

Also, Revan is just one individual. Their are many in Vitiate' list.

Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them.

You mean how he forged a link with Scourge and learned of his plot, killing him before Revan and the Exile could confront him?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You mean how he forged a link with Scourge and learned of his plot, killing him before Revan and the Exile could confront him?

Spoiler:
"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

In short, Vitiate was basically testing Scourge.

However, Vitiate did forged a telepathic link with Revan to probe him.

My point is that this is one of the useful methods to get the basic knowledge about the unknown opponent at least, if not every bit of detail early on.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will check this out.

Unu'Thul has demonstrated proficiency in probing the minds of his opponents. When he did so to Luke, it took the combined might of several Jedi in preventing him from doing so.

However, from what I have been reading - Unu'Thul is not as proficient as Vitiate in using mind dominating powers to crush the will of others. Not even close. As an example, just a minor mental brush from Vitiate put Scourge on his knees who is also no ordinary Sith.

Scourge is more or less a Sith Juggernaut iirc and in the novel is shown to focus mainly on the martial aspects of lightsaber combat. I doubt he has much experience against telepathic assaults at all. A similar case would be Raskta Lsu who focused on lightsaber combat to the detrement of her Force defenses.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malak are not the only examples. Vitiate succeeded in crushing the wills of many other individuals. In one case, he did so to 4 Jedi simultaneously and none of them were close to darkness. Play the game and you will get more insight.

Proof that he did it simultaneously? What happens in the game is that he subdues them with lightning and then you cut to months later as you've been forced to work for the Emperor. He isn't shown mentally dominating them to my knowledge.