Agreed. If someone is following me at night I'm not going to sit here and say I might not think to defend myself. A threat is present. And in any rational persons head there will be fear. Fear coupled with a seemingly life threatening situation calls for things like self-defense. I don't know how the fight went down but I'm pretty sure Martin would be justified in most scenarios.
Originally posted by KingD19Exactly. Why do we even need to give him justification for the hoodie. This is ridiculous and clearly exposing Zimmerman for his profiling.
Also, noticing his hoodie when it's raining? Yeah. It's raining, I have a hoodie, but I'm gonna keep the hood down. I love raindrops splashing on my face when I'm trying to see.
Originally posted by Lestov16There is a difference between spotting someone on the side of the road and then choosing to follow said person because you think they are suspicious vs realizing you are being followed possibly worried harm will come to you.
Like I said, because Zimmerman had a gun and could have just pulled it out if he sensed trouble. As far as Trayvon trying to defend himself, how does that make him any better than Zimmerman for panicking and unnecessarily resorting to violence rather than just explaining his presence and going on his merry way. You honestly mean to tell me that if Trayvon just held up the bag of skittles and told Zimmerman why he was there, Zimmerman still would have killed him? Doubtful.
And not pulling the gun does not mean Zimmerman did not threaten or instigate the conflict with Trayvon.
Originally posted by dadudemonI think your argument could be made stronger if you said, "And those black congressmen represent more of a 'white culture' than a black one so they are not really representing black culture in congress. That argument is weak: it is sitll a bunch of old white dudes, and their culture, voting for that obviously racist law."
Originally posted by Newjak
There is a difference between spotting someone on the side of the road and then choosing to follow said person because you think they are suspicious vs realizing you are being followed possibly worried harm will come to you.And not pulling the gun does not mean Zimmerman did not threaten or instigate the conflict with Trayvon.
True but also add into that the fact that you are very close to your home and could just go there if indeed you were so very fearful. I think most rational people not looking for trouble and truly afraid that there is someone following them, possibly to do harm, would go home and call the police. Or hide and use the cell phone they are carrying to call.
This i agree with. Zimmerman could have at anytime made a threatening gesture or comment that put Trayvon in self defense mode.
Originally posted by juggerman
True but also add into that the fact that you are very close to your home and could just go there if indeed you were so very fearful. I think most rational people not looking for trouble and truly afraid that there is someone following them, possibly to do harm, would go home and call the police. Or hide and use the cell phone they are carrying to call.
Was Zimmerman irrational then?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Was Zimmerman irrational then?
1. Black man in a hoodie,
2. Black man walking around in the neighborhood where a series of break-ins were perpeatuated by black offenders.
2.5 Zimmer's is at least partially racist.
3. Unfamiliar.
4. Acted skiddish when Zimmerman started checking him out.
Seems rational enough to suspect this seeming stranger and call 911. That's where he should have left it, though.
Originally posted by dadudemonA lot of this should have caveats to them
1. Black man in a hoodie,
2. Black man walking around in the neighborhood where a series of break-ins were perpeatuated by black offenders.
2.5 Zimmer's is at least partially racist.
3. Unfamiliar.
4. Acted skiddish when Zimmerman started checking him out.Seems rational enough to suspect this seeming stranger and call 911. That's where he should have left it, though.
1 It was raining
2 What is the ethnic make up of the community how rare is to see a black man in it
2.5 agreed
3 How familiar is Zimmerman with everyone in the community
4 Most people would act skittish if being checked out by a stranger.
Like you said at the very best you can rationalize yourself calling the police but that is where he should have stopped.
Originally posted by dadudemonBeing active is good and all that doesn't mean you know more than ten percent of the community depending on size and turn out of these events and who else is active in them.
From good to great, from what I can observe. He was active in the community.
For instance he may go to all these community events but if it's the same 100 people going in a community of 10,000 then he doesn't really know that many people from his community.
Originally posted by Newjak
Being active is good and all that doesn't mean you know more than ten percent of the community depending on size and turn out of these events and who else is active in them.For instance he may go to all these community events but if it's the same 100 people going in a community of 10,000 then he doesn't really know that many people from his community.
Let me rephase:
1. From good to great, from what I can observe.
2. He was also very active in his community which is a second point, mostly unrelated to the first point, but addresses your question with a separate point.
Also, I think you're confusing "city" with the word "community" when you should be thinking of "community" as "neighborhood."
Originally posted by dadudemonIt's all well and good that they are separate points but that doesn't change what I was saying.
Let me rephase:1. From good to great, from what I can observe.
2. He was also very active in his community which is a second point, mostly unrelated to the first point, but addresses your question with a separate point.Also, I think you're confusing "city" with the word "community" when you should be thinking of "community" as "neighborhood."
And I wasn't confusing city with community. I know the numbers I used denote more of a city but it was to make a point.
It could easily be 30 out of 300 or 1 out of 300.
Also where does his neighborhood end? Is it common for people from other neighborhoods to go through it?
The main reason behind this whole point was that being active is cool that doesn't mean you are familiar with half the people in your neighborhood.
Nor does it mean that you being unfamiliar with someone means that assuming they are suspicious is rational based on them being unfamiliar to you.
Mostly how rational is with regards to that is very relative.
Originally posted by Lestov16
But that's the most probable scenario. Zimmerman had a gun, not to mention he was a punk 1 out of 10 fighter, so I doubt he's the one who threw the first punch. And what could Zimmerman have told Trayvon to provoke a punch? If Trayvon was smoking herb earlier, that may have made him irrational.
Possible, yes. IMO, if Martin threw the first punch it was because Zimmerman made Martin uncomfortable/made him fear for his safety, which makes sense (to me) that Zimmerman would be acting aggressive and confident when they met, considering he thinks Trayon is some criminal and Zimmerman knows he has a gun to protect himself with. ie Big man with a gun syndrome.
Also, I've never seen anyone get aggressive from smoking weed and I've been around plenty. But that's anecdotal I guess. Is there some proof that marijuana makes someone [more] aggressive? Was Martin even actually high at the time?
Originally posted by Newjak
It's all well and good that they are separate points but that doesn't change what I was saying.
It does. "10,000 people" has no business in this conversation.
Originally posted by Newjak
It could easily be 30 out of 300 or 1 out of 300.
Several people in the neighborhood were interviewed. Your point is invalid.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It does. "10,000 people" has no business in this conversation.Several people in the neighborhood were interviewed. Your point is invalid.
How does several people being interviewed invalidate my point that perhaps Zimmerman wasn't as familiar with the people in his community that you could rationally assume his lack of knowledge on the person was good enough to make that call?
What is the community's size? What did those several people say about him?
Originally posted by Newjak
How does several people being interviewed invalidate my point that perhaps Zimmerman wasn't as familiar with the people in his community that you could rationally assume his lack of knowledge on the person was good enough to make that call?
How does George Zimmerman's participation in the neighborhood meetings and neighborhood watch program, the random news interivews of people in that same neighborhood with familiarity from pretty much everyone indicate that perhaps George Zimmerman was not familiar with the people in his community (neighborhood)?
Please, I'm very curious: what kind of logic does it take to assume GZ was not familiar with pretty much eveyrone in his neighborhood when the above is true?
Hint: I am not as active as GZ was with his neighborhood and I can assure you, I know every last person by face and most by name.