CISless Surfer vs HP Doomsday

Originally posted by -Pr-
We are, but it's still a secondary consideration in most cases. Feats have priority for the most part.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Here's the thing I only cite his opinion with regards to hp Doomsday threads because people exaggerate his feats and twist what it takes to kill him.

While I would agree that Doomsday does get pushed a bit far, I've seen you underrate him too, so I digress...

Originally posted by -Pr-
While I would agree that Doomsday does get pushed a bit far, I've seen you underrate him too, so I digress...

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm just going by what the writer envisioned as being enough power to take him down. I don't underrate DD. 😇

By going by what you believe the writer meant, you're ignoring what happended on panel 😬

Which really isn't good on this board.

Think he cares?

Originally posted by carver9
Do you know about any comic character you debate for or against? I never said that blue sunlight does nothing for Superman when on panel, it states the opposite. Read the comic and stop visiting respect threads. Like you mentioning 50 Super Nova, didn't happen...it was a made up story by Superman adopted parent. You would have known this if you read the comic.

THIS is where you get that the whole thing was made-up? All because Jonathon ends it with, "And the moral of the story is--?" You DO realize that you can be telling of true events and end it with that line, right? At BEST this scan implies that Jonathon made it up, but I'm being far too overly generous to you to give you THAT much. What? Is it the part where she thanks him for lying to her? You DO she meant about lying about his TRIP WITH CLARK WHEN THEY GOT BACK, right? 'Cuz ya know, she'd have been worried if she knew what actually happened, especially with her husband going into space, I'd imagine.

Unless you have some other scan that actually says he made the whole thing up. Do you? Or is this just one of the numerous misinterpretations you give that Pr brings-up so much?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Think he cares?

I don't care if he cares.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why not ? The writer didn't hold hunter prey Doomsday anywhere near the levels you conceive him to be at.

Perhaps I just haven't seen enough from Surfer, but what has he done to take-out Doomsday? Doomsday after all endured multiple blasts from a Guardian, then the Guardian's sacrifice.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_39.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_40.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_41.jpg

Yeah, Doomsday was starting to adapt, but still more than I can see Surfer dishing-out, at least without an amp/outside source to draw from. And I could see Doomsday adapting to the energy blasts from Surfer, as well. I mean Power Cosmic is just as exotic as the Guardian's energy right?

Or, it doesn't count because it wasn't from HUNTER/PREY? How about Doomsday surviving entropy, even if he couldn't indefinitely?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-42.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-43.jpg

I notice people in debates and on Respect threads always bring-up Superman's enduring that explosion equal to a million nukes when HUNTER/PREY comes-up, something Doomsday also endured, but this one really puts that to shame.

Happy now Quan? Did I give a satisfactory answer?

Originally posted by Parmaniac

doesn't looks like it

Doesn't hold water. Those "bios" tend to leave things out. In fact, your very link only half-mentions Doomsday's adaptive evolution. It brings-up the improving after dying, but doesn't mention that he can and has evolved mid-fight, not just after a death. Becoming immune to chronol stasis kinda proves it.

And I've seen others like that on the official DC site that leave things out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
By going by what you believe the writer meant, you're ignoring what happended on panel 😬

Which really isn't good on this board.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Perhaps I just haven't seen enough from Surfer, but what has he done to take-out Doomsday? Doomsday after all endured multiple blasts from a Guardian, then the Guardian's sacrifice.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_39.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_40.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_41.jpg

Yeah, Doomsday was starting to adapt, but still more than I can see Surfer dishing-out, at least without an amp/outside source to draw from. And I could see Doomsday adapting to the energy blasts from Surfer, as well. I mean Power Cosmic is just as exotic as the Guardian's energy right?

Or, it doesn't count because it wasn't from HUNTER/PREY? How about Doomsday surviving entropy, even if he couldn't indefinitely?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-42.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-43.jpg

I notice people in debates and on Respect threads always bring-up Superman's enduring that explosion equal to a million nukes when HUNTER/PREY comes-up, something Doomsday also endured, but this one really puts that to shame.

Happy now Quan? Did I give a satisfactory answer?

This is hunter and prey's version which is obviously stronger than dos or gl killing annual DD but the writer made it clear in an interview force can kill him. 95 percent of an unrestrained Superman's force can do so. I feel the Surfer is more powerful than 95 percent an unrestrained Superman at the time's power; dont you ?

Entropy was used to stop the process of him coming back it wasn't the only avenue of killing him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What am I ignoring ? That first Doomsday had a gl ring muddying the waters. DOS DD was killed by an all out weaker Superman so there's that. Surfer's power cosmic can do a lot more than just blast someone and DD won't have a gl ring this time.

This is hunter and prey's version which is obviously stronger than dos or gl killing annual DD but the writer made it clear in an interview force can kill him. 95 percent of an unrestrained Superman's force can do so. I feel the Surfer is more powerful than 95 percent an unrestrained Superman at the time's power; dont you ?

Entropy was used to stop the process of him coming back it wasn't the only avenue of killing him.

Actually, do you have proof that the Power Ring was really "mudding the waters?" I would THINK a Guardian could overcome the Power Ring it's self. I would think Doomsday starting to adapt to the Guardian's energy is more relevant than the Power Ring it's self. Not to mention the Power Ring is destroyed when the Guardian sacrifices himself.

But what exactly will Surfer do besides blast Doomsday, in regards to what's relevant to the scan I posted of DD and energy attacks? And what about Doomsday adapting to the Power Cosmic? If he adapted to the Guardian's energy, I can't see him unable to adapt to this.

And your argument is based on a writer's statement that 95% of Superman's "unrestrained power" would've killed Doomsday? Well, either the writer's opinion contradicts what he actually wrote, or you're arguing that 95% of Superman's unrestrained power is greater than the initial exposure to Entropy.

So, you're saying Surfer's more powerful than Entropy? Or will you concede the writer's stated opinion contradicts what he actually wrote?

Oh and for the record, I actually think Surfer wins here. Scenario has it he'd eventually BFR Doomsday. But that's the only way I can see Surfer winning, really.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Actually, do you have proof that the Power Ring was really "mudding the waters?" I would THINK a Guardian could overcome the Power Ring it's self. I would think Doomsday starting to adapt to the Guardian's energy is more relevant than the Power Ring it's self. Not to mention the Power Ring is destroyed when the Guardian sacrifices himself.

But what exactly will Surfer do besides blast Doomsday, in regards to what's relevant to the scan I posted of DD and energy attacks? And what about Doomsday adapting to the Power Cosmic? If he adapted to the Guardian's energy, I can't see him unable to adapt to this.[/B]

And your argument is based on a writer's statement that 95% of Superman's "unrestrained power" would've killed Doomsday? Well, either the writer's opinion contradicts what he actually wrote, or you're arguing that 95% of Superman's unrestrained power is greater than the initial exposure to Entropy.[/B]

So, you're saying Surfer's more powerful than Entropy? Or will you concede the writer's stated opinion contradicts what he actually wrote?

Oh and for the record, I actually think Surfer wins here. Scenario has it he'd eventually BFR Doomsday. But that's the only way I can see Surfer winning, really. [/B]

I am glad you agree Surfer wins because he does.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The power ring was an amp. DD isn't capable of what he did throughout the ish without the power ring so you can't use it as evidence for a thread without one. We see a later more powerful Doomsday go down to Superman in dos anyway.
First off it took death to adapt to that specific attack so it's only reasonable to assume Surfer can kill him and then after returning which is irrelevant to the thread can we say he adapts.
Because that's relevant and we don't attack a no limits fallacy. The writer answered a direct question which didn't contradict the arc. Superman was scared of him and didn't go balls to the wall in the story.
I am saying Surfer is more powerful than 95 percent of an all out Superman from hunter prey. Entropy isn't the only power which can kill Doomsday. Imperiex Prime easily killed him.

I am glad you agree Surfer wins because he does.

I don't think you understand what I mean. Do you have any proof that the Power Ring provided some protection to Doomsday against the GUARDIAN? What I mean is, I think the Guardian would've been capable of overcoming the Power Ring it's self. But even if it did, Doomsday still survived(even if he died) when the Guardian sacrificed himself, which destroyed the Power Ring, thus no protection from it. A more powerful Doomsday dying to Superman is kinda irrelevant, considering that Superman killed him with physical force, the Guardian attacked with energy. A more valid argument would be the difference in energy.

And no, it didn't take death for Doomsday to adapt to the Guardian's energy.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_40.jpg

"No....the creature is somehow adapting to my power, perhaps even FEEDING on it!"

You're thinking of the fight with The Radiant(I think that was the name). The Guardian's energy is just as exotic and it's more powerful than Surfer's Power Cosmic. Also, Doomsday adapted to become immune to Waverider's chronol(sp?) stasis without having to die.

And are you saying I'm using a No Limits Fallacy? Your very argument is the writer said that 95% of Superman's unrestrained power would've killed Doomsday. We see Doomsday's not killed by Entropy, he's still alive in it. So either the writer's statement contradicts the story, or Superman can produce more damage than Entropy.

And, Entropy didn't kill Doomsday.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-42.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-43.jpg

Of course, we're not seeing things long enough to know whether Doomsday can indefinitely survive or not, but we see he's still alive here. So, either the writer's opinion contradicts the story, or Superman of this era is more powerful than Entropy.

And why bring-up Imperiex Prime, exactly? Are you arguing that Surfer is on-par with Imperiex Prime? Plus, ya know, you only named one thing that killed H/P Doomsday.

And under normal circumstances, I don't see Surfer getting a majority against Doomsday based on how poorly I've seen him handle bricks, let alone one who can adapt to energy attacks during the fight. But, CIS is off, so Surfer would actually avoid the blows and eventually figure-out he has to BFR DD, more often than not. Unless something cheesy like Doomsday evolved teleportation happened.

Without Writers restriction, Surfer can be intangible, shrink himself into microscopic space enter into Doomsday's ear and explode from within. Surfer has 100's of feats with the Power Cosmic of Galactus. He can do so many things but the Writers have to put a cap on him because he can beat a guy like Doomsday in one panel. If you get a restricted brick Surfer just using his conventional lasers shooting out of his hands then Doomsday wins this.

Originally posted by carver9
Who wins...Surfer is going all out. Fight takes place on an indestructible planet.

Originally posted by Delta1938
And, Entropy didn't kill Doomsday.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-42.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-43.jpg

Of course, we're not seeing things long enough to know whether Doomsday can indefinitely survive or not, but we see he's still alive here. So, either the writer's opinion contradicts the story, or Superman of this era is more powerful than Entropy.

It's certainly not surprising that Entropy was able to destroy Doomsday. After all, it is a universe-destroying force--essentially DC's version of ultimate nullification: "It is the only time... The only place known where life cannot possibly exist." Pretty remarkable.

---

However, thanks to the events of Zero Hour, Brainiac was able to save Doomsday before Entropy destroyed him:

Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't think you understand what I mean. Do you have any proof that the Power Ring provided some protection to Doomsday against the GUARDIAN? What I mean is, I think the Guardian would've been capable of overcoming the Power Ring it's self. But even if it did, Doomsday still survived(even if he died) when the Guardian sacrificed himself, which destroyed the Power Ring, thus no protection from it. A more powerful Doomsday dying to Superman is kinda irrelevant, considering that Superman killed him with physical force, the Guardian attacked with energy. A more valid argument would be the difference in energy.

And no, it didn't take death for Doomsday to adapt to the Guardian's energy.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_40.jpg

"No....the creature is somehow adapting to my power, perhaps even FEEDING on it!"[/B]

You're thinking of the fight with The Radiant(I think that was the name). The Guardian's energy is just as exotic and it's more powerful than Surfer's Power Cosmic. Also, Doomsday adapted to become immune to Waverider's chronol(sp?) stasis without having to die.[/B]

And are you saying I'm using a No Limits Fallacy? Your very argument is the writer said that 95% of Superman's unrestrained power would've killed Doomsday. We see Doomsday's not killed by Entropy, he's still alive in it. So either the writer's statement contradicts the story, or Superman can produce more damage than Entropy.

And, Entropy didn't kill Doomsday.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-42.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Hunter-Prey-03-43.jpg
[/B]

Of course, we're not seeing things long enough to know whether Doomsday can indefinitely survive or not, but we see he's still alive here. So, either the writer's opinion contradicts the story, or Superman of this era is more powerful than Entropy.

And why bring-up Imperiex Prime, exactly? Are you arguing that Surfer is on-par with Imperiex Prime? Plus, ya know, you only named one thing that killed H/P Doomsday.[/B]

Imperiex Prime didn't use blanket power to kill him just a specific attack.

And under normal circumstances, I don't see Surfer getting a majority against Doomsday based on how poorly I've seen him handle bricks, let alone one who can adapt to energy attacks during the fight. But, CIS is off, so Surfer would actually avoid the blows and eventually figure-out he has to BFR DD, more often than not. Unless something cheesy like Doomsday evolved teleportation happened. [/B]

Dd hasn't been shown to adapt past teleportation. Wishful thinking at best.

Originally posted by Galan007
Entropy did kill Doomsday.

Originally posted by Galan007
Entropy did kill Doomsday. The scans you posted do not depict DD actually in Entropy--they merely depict Mother Box+Waverider's tech transporting him there (the scans state as much.) Once DD was dumped into Entropy, he was destroyed:

It's certainly not surprising that Entropy was able to destroy Doomsday. After all, it is a universe-destroying force--essentially DC's version of ultimate nullification: "It is the only time... The only place known where life cannot possibly exist." Pretty remarkable.

---

However, thanks to the events of Zero Hour, Brainiac was able to save Doomsday before Entropy destroyed him:

I was referring to the actual forces of entropy, as shown in my scans. Not the actual destruction of all of existence you're showing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You need to provide evidence outside the amp as proof. Post special issue an all out weaker dos Superman killed him so the point is moot. The guardians are all over the map. A weakened Anti Monitor killed one by touching one but failed to kill Sodam Yat.
No, I never said it did but Doomsday needed death to adapt to the radiant's attack/energy. Again, power ring and again dos.
The Guardian is more powerful than radiant as well but Radiant was successful while the Guardian was not. Ok. Doomsday has never become immune to pure force and there are examples both ways of exotic attacks working and failing. Imperiex Prime's exotic attack worked.
Neither is Superman or Waverider killed. This argument is getting rather hilarious. They had to leave there before it killed them as well. It's stated right on panel.
The point was entropy did kill him. Enough time spent there would have killed Superman and Waverider as well. The writer's opinion doesn'yt contradict anything.

Imperiex Prime didn't use blanket power to kill him just a specific attack.
Surfer's down quite well against Hulk and Thor recently. That's pretty high end to me.

Dd hasn't been shown to adapt past teleportation. Wishful thinking at best.

You have yet to show the Power Ring was a factor against the GUARDIAN. You certainly haven't shown how it was still a factor when it was destroyed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=DA1_41.jpg

So, you're saying the Power Ring was amping him when the blast tore a hole in space, despite the fact that it's destroyed?

So, Doomsday adapting to the Guardian's energy is irrelevant because he had a Power Ring? What about when it was destroyed?

And I think I get your argument now on the Power Ring. You mean about Doomsday was adapting to the Guardian's energy because he was exposed to the Power Ring's energy(which as far as I'm aware, is less powerful but the same type of energy the Guardians have), both it's and the Rings of other GLs? Well, that would mean he was building-up resistance/tolerance to it. Still, Doomsday's tough enough to take Surfer's blasts, and if he's adapting to them too, just means they'll be less effective as the fight goes on. As for "exotic attacks working," I guess we have different definitions of "exotic." I don't think of typical energy blasts as exotic, like Waverider freezing time. But the Imperiex Prime argument is irrelevant, unless you're trying to argue that Surfer is on-part with Imperiex Prime? Last I checked, the topic was about Surfer, not Galactus, fighting Doomsday.

Superman has survived through wormholes during this era and was apparently amped by a Mother Box, Waverider is a being made-up of chronol(sp?) energy. This isn't a valid argument. And there's a difference between surviving the initial exposure and surviving existence being obliterated. So, the question still stands. Did the writer's opinion contradict his story, or are you arguing Superman's more powerful than Entropy? If you're gonna nitpick, is Superman more powerful than the gravitational forces we see them exposed to in my scans?

And not sure what you're referring to on Imperiex Prime using a "specific attack" as opposed to "blanket power." The comparison to Imperiex Prime is irrelevant, unless you're trying to argue that Surfer is close to IP in power.

And Surfer doing well against Hulk? Hulk has been the ONLY brick I've seen Surfer consistently do well against. Thor? Haven't seen any of their recent fights, but Thor isn't as strong as Doomsday.

And I'm guessing you misread what I wrote about teleportation? I never said Doomsday adapts to teleportation. I said Surfer wins via BFR unless there's something cheesy like Doomsday developing his own teleportational power to deal with Surfer BFRing him. So, no, no wishful thinking, especially because I was giving the only example I can think of for Doomsday to consistently and effectively counter Surfer BFRing him and saying it was a cheesy example.

Or are you just nitpicking TO argue over something?

Originally posted by Galan007
To add to Phil's post...

H/P Doomsday's speed was sufficient to overwhelm an AMPED Superman:

"...And he's on top of me before I know it."

Before anyone starts, YES. The Mother Box DID amp Superman:

"Fortunately, this Hunter suit is not only equipped with many powerful devices--but its booster units also ENHANCE my own natural abilities!"

Where's that from? I looked all through HUNTER/PREY #3 and couldn't find that scene, and taking a closer look at it, the art doesn't match-up. Is it from a flashback of HUNTER/PREY in another comic?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Where's that from? I looked all through HUNTER/PREY #3 and couldn't find that scene, and taking a closer look at it, the art doesn't match-up. Is it from a flashback of HUNTER/PREY in another comic?