Originally posted by abhilegend
Why wouldn't you show hulk's so called "speed" feats first, so that we can measure his speed against doomsday?
Already did. Slapping missles out of the sky...Quick Silver commenting on Hulks super speed...creating Sonic booms. It's clear cut Hulk has super speed just like its clear Doomsday does as well. We just need to find a medium.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He has none except fighting speedsters as far as I know.Does Doomsday clearly have more?
Please enlighten me.
I was actually going from arguments in the first 6-8 pages where people who always say "Hulk gets beat by any speedster because he does not have speed feats" were suddenly using the logic that Doomsday doesn't get blitzed because he's fought speedsters before 🙄
Pretty much. Seems bias to me.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERJust a couple examples, in just a couple issues.
Y'all need to seriously calm down.First stop assuming what my way is. Im just pointing something out which seems hypocritical to me.
Show me speed feats of DOS Doomsday that put him well above Hulk(except for fighting speedsters which Hulk has also done) and then I may have to take my statement back.
And for the record, in Hulk vs Supes threads I always say Supes speed blitz Hulk.
Originally posted by Badabing
Here are 6 speed feats for DD from DOS. Maxima, Guy Gardner, Booster Gold and Superman all comment on DD's speed.
Comparatively, Hulk has struggled notoriously with Wolverine's speed, Spiderman's speed, Rhino?[that Blight just posted?] etc etc.
You won't find that anywhere when reading Doomsday.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
PIS'less (is off by default in a forum fight)/CIS'less Surfer is basically a minor Cube Being; he is only limited by his creativity and the amount of matter and energy he can manipulate at once...PIS'less/CIS'less Surfer 10/10 without much effort...
And what actually has Silver Surfer done for you to think this?
Originally posted by DARTH POWERDeflection, and already covered many times.
He has none except fighting speedsters as far as I know.Does Doomsday clearly have more?
Please enlighten me.
I was actually going from arguments in the first 6-8 pages where people who always say "Hulk gets beat by any speedster because he does not have speed feats" were suddenly using the logic that Doomsday doesn't get blitzed because he's fought speedsters before 🙄
Originally posted by Juntai
These people suggesting he is just an equal to Hulk have only continued to carry on this many pages because of an adnauseum logical fallacy. Trying to measure a cherry-picked scan or two against the entire body of work and all the arguments being cemented repeatedly against them from the beginning in a clear case of intentional obfuscation. Using clearly wild comparisons, ignoring all the evidence that can't be twisted to support their preconceived notion of what they feel it -should- be, rather than what evidence suggests it is.The fact of the matter is, in DOS, in only a handful of issues, his speed was stated over and over, a dozen or more times. Writers intent is VERY clear. Again, in Hunter/Prey, in only a couple prestige issues his speed was again mentioned over and over, and shown that he could crawl from the ground, run a length of field, and blitz Darkseid before he could even completely turn his head around. A man who up to that point in time had zero problems dealing with Superman's speed. Again in the follow-up story where Brainiac actually steals him from the end of H/P[same body, power, etc, just with Brainiac's mind], his speed is again a factor, and finally see that even Flash is unable to escape him when he first appears and is KOed. Later again when the league confronts him, Flash again is leaving massive trails rolling in at Superspeed behind him[only a few feet back], and is unable to get there in between which Brainy/Doomsday grabs Wonder Woman, ties her up with her own lasso, then spins her around and collapses Flash as he approaches using her as a weapon. Even during the story of battling the Khunds, a couple guys see him from a distance rampaging and the very next panel is his fist smashing one of the guys faces in.
Just because someone can come up with a few times in 60 years of history of someone claiming Hulk is quick and surprised them, doesn't remove all the times he was made to look foolish by faster characters, including all the way down to characters Spiderman, Captain America, and Wolverine.
Doomsday up until the laughable semi-intelligent fire-breathing abomination of a Doomsday never had trouble with anyone's speed, and never did after that either.
And even still, none of this removes what is clearly writers intent, despite not leaving afterimages or blurring in panels, or a lack of feats concerning a character who has only a few appearances in history.....in the space of a literal handful of comics we're reminded of him being faster, stronger and more savage than everyone else- repeatedly.
While you can try to reason away this scan, or that, or say this or that is only character claims, you can't begin to disclaim the entire body of work, dozens of mentionings by characters, narration and likewise visual representation in combat in only a very few issues.
I dare anyone to find a miniseries for the Hulk where he was not only visually overrunning nearly everyone before they react, but the characters[many of them with superspeed at that] and narration are both suggesting he's too fast to counter repeatedly until the end of the arc.
If you can't, you must concede.
Simply as that.
Put up the goods or forget it.
Originally posted by Delta1938
And what actually has Silver Surfer done for you to think this?
Go check out the Surfers respect thread; he can do practically anything he desires with his matter/energy manip (within the limits of the amount he can manipulate at once)...
A CIS'less Surfer putting his powerset to creative use beats almost everyone beneath a Skyfather (or someone similar to him, but more powerful; the Runner for example)
Originally posted by Juntai
Just a couple examples, in just a couple issues.Comparatively, Hulk has struggled notoriously with Wolverine's speed, Spiderman's speed, Rhino?[that Blight just posted?] etc etc.
You won't find that anywhere when reading Doomsday.
I also saw examples of him being outran by several different normal humans, including General Ross.
Originally posted by Juntai
Just a couple examples, in just a couple issues.
I said feats outside just fighting speedsters. Hulk has fought speedsters, and had speedsters commenting on his speed.
Originally posted by Juntai
Comparatively, Hulk has struggled notoriously with Wolverine's speed, Spiderman's speed, Rhino?[that Blight just posted?] etc etc.
You won't find that anywhere when reading Doomsday.
And yet if we're going to lowball, we do find many instances like that with Superman himself getting hit by people who should never be touching him. Even the Flash for that matter.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Go check out the Surfers respect thread; he can do practically anything he desires with his matter/energy manip (within the limits of the amount he can manipulate at once)...A CIS'less Surfer putting his powerset to creative use beats almost everyone beneath a Skyfather (or someone similar to him, but more powerful; the Runner for example)
I don't really like going through Surfer respect threads. People tend to misinterpret feats and apply the No Limits Fallacy. I saw someone arguing for Surfer bring-up Surfer creating a star, when it clearly showed he was stabilizing an already existing star, and it was arguable he only did it due to absorbing an outside energy source.
For example I often see people claim Surfer turns his opponent into a spoon, or a cuddly pink bunny, or whatever object they chose. Has Surfer actually transmuted a living being? And that's assuming Doomsday wouldn't be resistant to that type of attack.
When it comes down to it, you're giving me the feeling you're saying, "Surfer wins 10/10 with ease because he's Silver Surfer."
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThe fact at least one of those characters was created as a Hulk enemy suggests it isn't really lowballing.
And yet if we're going to lowball, we do find many instances like that with Superman himself getting hit by people who should never be touching him. Even the Flash for that matter.
It's also very different situation than what you mention of Superman or Flash, because we know they posses the level of speed required to dodge a lot of those enemies or make them seem like statues. The same is not true in a Hulk vs Wolverine or Spiderman scenario. And it's not even the idea of if he should beat them or not, because he should, but the fact that he continuously struggles with their speed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet if we're going to lowball, we do find many instances like that with Superman himself getting hit by people who should never be touching him. Even the Flash for that matter.
It would only be lowballing Hulk if there were consistent examples of him being much faster than those characters mentioned. With Superman, it's not lowballing because he doesn't fight at super speed all the time. But Superman also doesn't comment on every opponent's speed who tags him. Doomsday has more consistently been hard to connect, including multiple opponents with super speed(in the very same issue, in some cases) with ON TOP of numerous beings both with and without super speed commenting on his speed.
Originally posted by Juntai
The fact at least one of those characters was created as a Hulk enemy suggests it isn't really lowballing.It's also very different situation than what you mention of Superman or Flash, because we know they posses the level of speed required to dodge a lot of those enemies or make them seem like statues. The same is not true in a Hulk vs Wolverine or Spiderman scenario. And it's not even the idea of if he should beat them or not, because he should, but the fact that he continuously struggles with their speed, among many many other characters when they apply it against him.
SMH...you know this goes against Superman as well right when he face Wolverine level opponents. Shadow Dragon...Superman admitted Shadow Dragon was too fast for him and he couldn't lay a glove on him. Batman on numerous of occasions has outright dodged a blitzing Superman. Superman also commented on Deathstroke speed and failed at catching him.
High end street levelers just get a lot of respect. Hell, Deathsroke outright blitzed Lex better than Supes has done in any of their encounters.
Almost forgot...Nightwing was running circles around a Batman that had Superman powers, let's also not forget about all of the Deathstroke showing against Flashes. Let's also not forget Nightwing tied Flash up before Flash even got the chance to react.
The list is heavy with streets vs Speedster...if anything, street level characters sometimes looks better against opponents that speedster struggle to take down. Didnt Deathstroke defeat Kalibak in one panel?
Originally posted by carver9
SMH...you know this goes against Superman as well right when he face Wolverine level opponents. Shadow Dragon...Superman admitted Shadow Dragon was too fast for him and he couldn't lay a glove on him. Batman on numerous of occasions has outright dodged a blitzing Superman. Superman also commented on Deathstroke speed and failed at catching him.High end street levelers just get a lot of respect. Hell, Deathsroke outright blitzed Lex better than Supes has done in any of their encounters.
You've got one, maybe two examples, assuming you're not misinterpreting the scans(much like you did with Flash lending Superman speed to be faster than thought, Jonathon making-up the 50 supernovas thing, and a couple other examples I've recently seen) and a claim of Batman on "numerous occasions" dodging a speed-blitzing Superman. Where are these examples? The closest I can think of would be when Batman moved out of the way of a charging, but not blitzing, Superman who was mind-controlled by Dessad, and even Batman admitted the mind control slowing Superman down was why he was still alive.
As for Deathstroke blitzing Lex "better than Supes has done in any of their encounters," how many times has Superman actually outright fought Luthor? But you're saying Deathstroke outright blitzed Lex better than Superman has done in ANY of their encounters? REALLY?
Unless you want to nitpick that Superman's not going at Luthor directly with his speed. 🙄
Originally posted by JuntaiI was talking more about the fight at the Habitat of Cadmus. He's got Doomsday on his toes for a while.
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/DC/?action=view¤t=DOSDDspeed3.jpgHas more to do with the fact that Doomsday can't fly.
I'm still in agreement with you though that Doomsday has Superspeed. I just say it's a minor blitz, though it could be that Doomsday is a bit Hazed.
Originally posted by JuntaiThe issue with Rhino is from Hulk #124
Just a couple examples, in just a couple issues.Comparatively, Hulk has struggled notoriously with Wolverine's speed, Spiderman's speed, Rhino?[that Blight just posted?] etc etc.
You won't find that anywhere when reading Doomsday.
And you didn't even mention this:
She is specifically stating she is not going to be caught off guard. This means that she MUST be ready for the attack coming.... pretty ludacris.
Originally posted by Blight
I was talking more about the fight at the Habitat of Cadmus. He's got Doomsday on his toes for a while.I'm still in agreement with you though that Doomsday has Superspeed. I just say it's a minor blitz, though it could be that Doomsday is a bit Hazed.
The issue with Rhino is from Hulk #124
And you didn't even mention this:
She is specifically stating she is not going to be caught off guard. This means that she MUST be ready for the attack coming.... pretty ludacris.
I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have speed.
Originally posted by Delta1938
When it comes down to it, you're giving me the feeling you're saying, "Surfer wins 10/10 with ease because he's Silver Surfer."
Oh I'm not saying that at all...
I am saying that with creative use of his great matter/energy manip (combined with flight and the ability to move FTL), he could beat HP Doomsday without even having to directly attack him...
He could start transmuting objects in Doomsdays immediate vicinity into singularities and beat him that way...
Or he could trigger a fusion reaction between Doomsday and the foreign substances both on his person and inside of his body and utterly destroy him that way...
With creative use of his powers and the abscence of CIS, Surfer would be practically unbeatable by anyone less than a Skyfather or a Trans Tier with a similar powerset...
Originally posted by carver9Now show something that would compare him to Hulk level Speed... that's what you're claiming, right? Show someone who's fast that is ready for an attack from Hulk that gets blitzed. Or at least something comparable.
I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have speed.
Originally posted by Delta1938
So how fast do you actually think Doomsday is? Roughly, of course.
That I can't be sure on. Somewhere above Hulk and Below Superman. That's all I can be sure on.
