Originally posted by zopzop
No because Marvel has an entire OMNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal, who is below TOAA, held entire Megaverses (Megaveres are clusters of MULTIVERSES) in his hands!
Yawn...and DCnU Merlin held all of space/time in his hands.
Anyone trying to claim Marvel wins this clearly wants cut and dry rankings -- you want everything lined up and spelled out for you. DC cosmics, especially Vertigo related, are far more complex and abstract. Relationships between characters and how one fits into another and the hierarchy at large is really vague and, I believe, intentionally made so for the reader to interpret as he or she wants.
Some people don't like that approach, and I get it. There's still some undeniable and absolute facts that we do know for sure:
1. The Presence/God is a true omnipotent. He created everything, and exists in everything (see Lucifer series; Zauriel). Characters like WF Mxy and such did not and cannot kill the Presence/God.
2. Michael and Lucifer are second only to God. No, they don't have combat feats. They don't need combat feats, and that's not how their characters are supposed to be. TOAA doesn't have combat feats, and he doesn't need them either.
3. Michael is the embodiment of God's power. He is an abstract. People don't generally get that. He is power. All of it. He also can't die.
4. Lucifer is the embodiment of God's will. He is also an abstract. He has God's infinite reality shaping power. He cannot create something from the void (only Michael can), but if it's already there, he can literally do anything. He doesn't do in comics for two reasons. First is that it would make the most boring comic ever. Second is that he prefers to work through others. He's not oblivious to cosmic design and the natural order of things.
5. The Great Evil Beast is the darkness/evil to the Presence's light/good. Even if you considered them separate, which I think is foolish, they merged and are complete now anyways. "The fight ended in perhaps a stalemate". Wow, do you really need it spelled out for you? Perhaps a stalemate because God was challenging himself, and neither side won or lost. There's no words to accurately describe something like that, hence how it was worded.
6. DCs God has never been explicitly challenged -- except by himself.
7. It is unknown how the Primal Monitor fits into the DC hierarchy. It is quite possible that the Primal Monitor and the Presence are one in the same. It's possible that the Primal Monitor is a representation of the reader or the writer. We don't know, and I doubt we'll ever know. Without being explicitly told otherwise, the Presence/God remains supreme.
8. The Spectre fluctuates in power constantly. You can't use his low feats as a gauge to measure other characters. You can use his high feats as a gauge though (e.g. ZH and the like).
9. The Spectre, with Hal and Crispus as hosts, has been consistently written weaker than he has appeared in the past.
10. Forgot one related to Lucifer/Michael. They are canonically greater than the Endless such as Death, Sandman, etc.
11. Everyone in Marvel has low feats too, that are constantly ignored by Marvel fanatics. LT, with all his power, has been surpassed, BFR'd, and absorbed. Death has been killed and run off. I could write a book about Eternity's low showings. The point of this is not to say that Marvel characters are weak, but that some people pretend like DC cosmics have so many low showings and Marvel is so consistent that ABC logic can get you anywhere and blah blah blah and it's all bullshit.
Originally posted by quanchi112
By stabbing him in the back I'd say yes. Michael didn't get talked into submission. Looks like someone less powerful can hurt him. I'm glad we had this talk.
Oh, you're right. Being stabbed in the back by someone who was supposed to be your ally is fighting.
Where do you come up with this stuff?
Originally posted by CogitoIt is fighting. It shows he can be beaten by someone nowhere near his power level. If Michael was beyond reproach Sandolphon's attack wouldn't have hurt him. I read the comics and the logic he's second to god is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard yet people flock to it like it means anything.
Oh, you're right. Being stabbed in the back by someone who was supposed to be your ally is fighting.Where do you come up with this stuff?
Originally posted by quanchi112
It is fighting. It shows he can be beaten by someone nowhere near his power level. If Michael was beyond reproach Sandolphon's attack wouldn't have hurt him. I read the comics and the logic he's second to god is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard yet people flock to it like it means anything.
Nobody said Michael was beyond reproach. He can, obviously, be backstabbed by other high ranking angels. He can, obviously, be challenged and nearly killed by Lucifer (as it happened).
You clearly missed the part I wrote about Michael being an abstract. He is God's power. He can't be killed. His "body" is a nothing but a container and "killing him" is merely releasing that power that is him. He instantly reforms another body.
Michael can't be killed any more than anyone can actually destroy God's power. Can't happen, won't happen, end of story.
Yes, he can be contained. Could it happen here? No, not if Michael is facing his enemy and no, Lucifer would free him instantly (infinite reality warping abilities, remember?). The only reason Lucifer didn't free him in his title run is because he didn't give a shit.
DC probably wins 6/10, but to me it's debatable.
i don't think it's fair steer towards an angels power being second only to "god" because that's just in their continuity. for this fight, they are fighting beings from another continuity where "god" is not acknowledged as the supreme creator of all...(it may or may not be the case, but there are many other factors)
for the record, I don't like how DC's god is portrayed as "omnipotent" because a writer is conveying the actions of the most high. in Marvel, the most high isn't shown but instead we get an "absolute" being in the form of LT. sure we have TOAA but at least when you see him, it shows that the infinity concept is in place because TOAA is a writer/artist and "god" would be whoever put his universe conditions in place. (that's where i apply the infinity concept, where existence continues on and on)
so for this fight, i put DC's angels somewhere around Scathan in significance. universe shaping/busting feats aside, there's potential for that on both sides. michael and lucifer might have the most power over Zom, because if balance is taken into consideration than any sentient being (god or mortal) has 2 sides -- good, and bad (positive and negative), which are abstract concepts representing chaos and order to the highest magnitudes.
Originally posted by CogitoMichael was nearly killed by Lucy because he was greatly weakened at the time. Sandolphon had the power to keep Michael as his prisoner and to defeat him in combat so this whole notion of second to god means squat.
Nobody said Michael was beyond reproach. He can, obviously, be backstabbed by other high ranking angels. He can, obviously, be challenged and nearly killed by Lucifer (as it happened).
He can be killed. He has been killed. Michael can be beaten into submission so he can lose and has lost on panel.
You clearly missed the part I wrote about Michael being an abstract. He is God's power. He can't be killed. His "body" is a nothing but a container and "killing him" is merely releasing that power that is him. He instantly reforms another body. [/B]
This is a versus thread. There are other ways of winning other than killing and we've seen far less power rip into his backside and have him at his opponents mercy. If I turn around or if I face my opponent the spear is cutting into me if it hits my skin. The same applies to Michael he wasn't invulnerable to the attack. He might have moved but that's another matter altogether. The power to hurt him is proven on panel. Lucy like Michael are beatable this notion they aren't really says ignore the entire run of his solo series.
Michael can't be killed any more than anyone can actually destroy God's power. Can't happen, won't happen, end of story.Yes, he can be contained. Could it happen here? No, not if Michael is facing his enemy and no, Lucifer would free him instantly (infinite reality warping abilities, remember?). The only reason Lucifer didn't free him in his title run is because he didn't give a shit. [/B]
Ok...you blatantly ignored everything I've said so I'll have to address this one point at a time.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael was nearly killed by Lucy because he was greatly weakened at the time. Sandolphon had the power to keep Michael as his prisoner and to defeat him in combat so this whole notion of second to god means squat.
Lucifer and Michael are equals. Both were weakened, and the beat each other half to death. Now, Sandolphon is a high ranking angel. That, and the fact that he backstabbed Michael, doesn't mean that anyone can do it. It more implies that Sandolphon is also really powerful, and that Michael can be hurt by really powerful beings that stab him in the back. It does not, in any way, imply that any John Doe or even an Abstract can do the same in a head to head confrontation. Sandy has intimate knowledge of the situation and his enemy that nobody else would have in a forum battle.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He can be killed. He has been killed. Michael can be beaten into submission so he can lose and has lost on panel.
He can't be killed, he has never been killed. He's an abstract of God's power. When his body is destroyed, he/his power comes out. Then it reforms. He isn't killed at any point.
He has only been "beaten into submission" once, and that was by Lucifer when both were weakened by the Presence's absence. You already know what would have happened if he had actually been "killed". The Multiverse would have been destroyed and he would have instantly reformed in an undamaged state. That's just called changing form. He's an abstract, with his power (which is what he is) being containted, to being uncontainted, to being contained again. No death involved.
Originally posted by quanchi112
This is a versus thread. There are other ways of winning other than killing and we've seen far less power rip into his backside and have him at his opponents mercy.
You don't know what amount of power that took. Sandolphon was a high ranking angel using angelic weaponry. Michael's back was turned. I see no high ranking angels with angelic weaponry on team 2, and I don't see any conditions that state that the fight starts with Michael's back turned.
Originally posted by quanchi112
If I turn around or if I face my opponent the spear is cutting into me if it hits my skin. The same applies to Michael he wasn't invulnerable to the attack. He might have moved but that's another matter altogether
I don't see how that's another matter altogether. Per forum rules:
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
Michael will fight to the best of his ability. He will move. He will stop the attack from hitting him to the best of his ability.
Originally posted by quanchi112
The power to hurt him is proven on panel.
And the power to hurt all of the characters on Team 2 has been proven on panel. What's your point?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucy like Michael are beatable this notion they aren't really says ignore the entire run of his solo series.
Right...lets review the list of characters that have hurt Michael in all time from the moment God created him to the end of the Lucifer series:
1. Sandolphon
2. Lucifer (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)
And the list of characters that have hurt Lucifer (depowered or otherwise)
1. Michael (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)
mmm
Originally posted by CogitoThey aren't equals. Lucy was tricked by Fenris into fighting Michael iirc. A higher rank doesn't denote a superiority in power necessarily. The president of the usa can't beat up chuck liddell. Sandolphon was later easily killed in battle. Just because he stabbed through Michael doesn't suggest he's uber powerful. Michael is quite powerful but his power doesn't translate over into uber durability, apparently.
Ok...you blatantly ignored everything I've said so I'll have to address this one point at a time.Lucifer and Michael are equals. Both were weakened, and the beat each other half to death. Now, Sandolphon is a high ranking angel. That, and the fact that he backstabbed Michael, doesn't mean that anyone can do it. It more implies that Sandolphon is also really powerful, and that Michael can be hurt by really powerful beings that stab him in the back. It does not, in any way, imply that any John Doe or even an Abstract can do the same in a head to head confrontation. Sandy has intimate knowledge of the situation and his enemy that nobody else would have in a forum battle.
Michael dies near the end of the book. Michael also doesn't need to be killed to be defeated. Stab through his back seems to work just fine. I argue based off panel you pretend.
He can't be killed, he has never been killed. He's an abstract of God's power. When his body is destroyed, he/his power comes out. Then it reforms. He isn't killed at any point. [/B]
The Presence doesn't exist in the threads it's just Michael. I don't recall the presence exiting creation at that point but it's been years since I read through this cover to cover. No, he dies and reforms. Sorry, I poo pooed on your vertigo character but it's supported on panel. How many fights did Michael even win ? LOL.
He has only been "beaten into submission" once, and that was by Lucifer when both were weakened by the Presence's absence. You already know what would have happened if he had actually been "killed". The Multiverse would have been destroyed and he would have instantly reformed in an undamaged state. That's just called changing form. He's an abstract, with his power (which is what he is) being containted, to being uncontainted, to being contained again. No death involved.
[/B]
Higher rank doesn't have anything to do with higher power see the president example I gave.
You don't know what amount of power that took. Sandolphon was a high ranking angel using angelic weaponry. Michael's back was turned. I see no high ranking angels with angelic weaponry on team 2, and I don't see any conditions that state that the fight starts with Michael's back turned.[/B]
Michael will attack I agree but he doesn't use his abilities to win the fight with a gestyure like he could have. You can't make Michael do something he's never done on panel.
I don't see how that's another matter altogether. Per forum rules:Michael will fight to the best of his ability. He will move. He will stop the attack from hitting him to the best of his ability.[/B]
That it's more powerful than a Sandolphon spear attack.
And the power to hurt all of the characters on Team 2 has been proven on panel. What's your point?[/B]
1.Yes, he dominated Michael.
Right...lets review the list of characters that have hurt Michael in all time from the moment God created him to the end of the Lucifer series:
1. Sandolphon
2. Lucifer (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)And the list of characters that have hurt Lucifer (depowered or otherwise)
1. Michael (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)mmm [/B]
1.Fenris. Lucy had to use tactics and his reasoning to best him. Lucy also used his mind along with help against the other high ranking angel in the duel. I can't recall his name off hand. Ameniel or something to that effect.
Michael will attack I agree but he doesn't use his abilities to win the fight with a gestyure like he could have. You can't make Michael do something he's never done on panel.
This is wrong. If something is within someone's Power Set and abilities, then they can do it even if we have not see it on panel. You don't need to see the LT have super reaction feats on panel to know that he cannot be speedblitzed by Flash. Likewise, I don't need to see Fulcrum defend against Time Freezing to suggest Odin or other Sky Father's couldn't do that to him.
Not allowing Michael to use his full abilities goes against the Forum Rules.