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Lord of the Great Abyss
Originally posted by Cogito
Yawn...and DCnU Merlin held all of space/time in his hands.
Proof? There were some that said that was a visualization.
Anyone trying to claim Marvel wins this clearly wants cut and dry rankings -- you want everything lined up and spelled out for you. DC cosmics, especially Vertigo related, are far more complex and abstract. Relationships between characters and how one fits into another and the hierarchy at large is really vague and, I believe, intentionally made so for the reader to interpret as he or she wants.
Talk about "yawn". Ok, so I interpret them as weaksauce.
Some people don't like that approach, and I get it. There's still some undeniable and absolute facts that we do know for sure:
1. The Presence/God is a true omnipotent. He created everything, and exists in everything (see Lucifer series; Zauriel). Characters like WF Mxy and such did not and cannot kill the Presence/God.
2. Michael and Lucifer are second only to God. No, they don't have combat feats. They don't need combat feats, and that's not how their characters are supposed to be. TOAA doesn't have combat feats, and he doesn't need them either.
3. Michael is the embodiment of God's power. He is an abstract. People don't generally get that. He is power. All of it. He also can't die.
4. Lucifer is the embodiment of God's will. He is also an abstract. He has God's infinite reality shaping power. He cannot create something from the void (only Michael can), but if it's already there, he can literally do anything. He doesn't do in comics for two reasons. First is that it would make the most boring comic ever. Second is that he prefers to work through others. He's not oblivious to cosmic design and the natural order of things.
5. The Great Evil Beast is the darkness/evil to the Presence's light/good. Even if you considered them separate, which I think is foolish, they merged and are complete now anyways. "The fight ended in perhaps a stalemate". Wow, do you really need it spelled out for you? Perhaps a stalemate because God was challenging himself, and neither side won or lost. There's no words to accurately describe something like that, hence how it was worded.
6. DCs God has never been explicitly challenged -- except by himself.
7. It is unknown how the Primal Monitor fits into the DC hierarchy. It is quite possible that the Primal Monitor and the Presence are one in the same. It's possible that the Primal Monitor is a representation of the reader or the writer. We don't know, and I doubt we'll ever know. Without being explicitly told otherwise, the Presence/God remains supreme.
8. The Spectre fluctuates in power constantly. You can't use his low feats as a gauge to measure other characters. You can use his high feats as a gauge though (e.g. ZH and the like).
9. The Spectre, with Hal and Crispus as hosts, has been consistently written weaker than he has appeared in the past.
10. Forgot one related to Lucifer/Michael. They are canonically greater than the Endless such as Death, Sandman, etc.
11. Everyone in Marvel has low feats too, that are constantly ignored by Marvel fanatics. LT, with all his power, has been surpassed, BFR'd, and absorbed. Death has been killed and run off. I could write a book about Eternity's low showings. The point of this is not to say that Marvel characters are weak, but that some people pretend like DC cosmics have so many low showings and Marvel is so consistent that ABC logic can get you anywhere and blah blah blah and it's all bullshit.
A lot of this is so wrong I don't even know where to begin, but let's start with the GEB.
He's NOT a part of Vertigo's "God" but his opposite/equal. This alone proves Vertigo's God < TOAA (who has NO opposites, peers, or superiors). And they did not merge, I even provided a scan from the GEB's respect thread that stated "He" and Vertigo's "God" are locked in "at best, a stalemate". Unless you have a more recent scan proving they merged.
The GEB also sh|ts all over the claim that Michael is "second only to "God" since GEB is at least "God's" equal. So Michael is second to him also.
Then there's the Swamp Thing/Elemental Congress fiasco that almost had Swamp Thing replace Vertigo's "God" as the new supreme being! 😆
Regarding the Presence (since some on this thread said he's not the same being as Vertigo's "God"😉, WF Mxy sh|ts all over him. Destroying and recreating the entire DC OMNIVERSE (which by definition would include the Presence) on a whim.............WEEKLY.
So claims by Team Angel that these feebs are "second, third, and fourth only" to their feeb "God" is meaningless for us on Team Marvel.
Going by feats and fights ON PANEL, not in some made up scenario in Team Vertigo's head, Team Marvel wins.