Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer is easily the best-written abstructual character in comics. The only thing(s) that come close are Sandman and the Endless.Anyone who says that Lucifer is 'awful' either hasn't read the series, or is hating just to hate. It's that simple.
Morpheus also belongs in the top 3. After that, the list isn't that strong.
Originally posted by CortSether
Sorry if I don't find stories about Lucifer getting mad about people's notions of Hell and deciding to leave and run a bar in LA super exciting.
At least Chaos War didn't attempt to take itself seriously like that pretentious crap coming from Vertigo.
Rip-off not in design, but more so in concept. I mean Shuma would have fit great in the whole Chaos War story. Shuma-Gorath was called the master of the lords of chaos, has an unknown age that is extremely old even among gods, and is said to be a 'void made flesh'. Would have made more sense to me to have Shuma-Gorath as the "Chaos King" than Mikaboshi. Everything fits with showings of the character. I do wonder if Shuma is possibly an aspect of Oblivion based on all that.
Originally posted by CortSether
Sorry if I don't find stories about Lucifer getting mad about people's notions of Hell and deciding to leave and run a bar in LA super exciting.
......Is that......the only thing you got from the entire series?
But i guess stories involving one-eyed tentacled monster who gets owned all the time, is much more entertaining to read.
Originally posted by Galan007While I agree it is exceptionally written acting like your opinion equals fact is ridiculous. This is subjectivity not objectivity.
Lucifer is easily the best-written abstructual character in comics. The only thing(s) that come close are Sandman and the Endless.Anyone who says that Lucifer is 'awful' either hasn't read the series, or is hating just to hate. It's that simple.
Originally posted by operator616Why would dropping a loaded term like "multiverse" in a conversation mark Lucifer's feat as particularly distinctive from Chaos King's? If anybody needs to be reminded, Amadeus Cho, a super-genius also mentioned that Chaos King had consumed most of the "multiverse" as well.
As Epicurus said: Lucifer outright stated his creation is a multiverse in Lucifer: Nirvana.That's why you'll notice that i started my post (this part you even quoted) "apart from Lucifer mentioning that his creation was a multiverse".
Here's the scan:
http://i.imgur.com/6NA2eJb.jpg?1
"What ive created is not a realm. It is a totality. A multiverse."
But since it's been also stated several times on panel and in the Vertigo Encyclopedia, that Lucifer created a "universe", it has become debatable whether he created a multiverse or a mere universe (there's evidence for both, basically). My response was meant to post further proof (apart from the statement in Lucifer: Nirvana which everybody is aware of) which supports the notion of Lucifer's creation being a multiverse.
Is it just me, or is the double standard being used here just so ingrained that people can't see how obvious it is?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, I'm with ODG here. Unless some scans are left out (As it's been a long time since I've read Lucifer), I'm not sure how one can say he has a stronger case. I mean, the word Multiverse was outright used in Chaos War a few times and it was even said ALL the Universes were in danger or something of that sort.
Originally posted by EpicurusWell, at least I'm not alone here.
Nope, the amount of evidence which indicates that CK's feat was multiversal is about the same as that for Lucifer. And the amount of evidence which directly or indirectly contradicts it is also roughly the same.
Originally posted by EpicurusWait, wat?
This is spot on and one of the main reasons why Lucifer's "Creation" is without, a shadow of a doubt, a true multiverse. The Naglfar storyline in the series involved actual parallel universes, with an alternate version of one of the characters involved in said storyline(Cas) interacting with the , with it being all but stated on-panel that these realities constituted Yahweh's creation. Since Lucifer's(and by extension Elaine's) creation is clearly equivalent to Yahweh's in every way, shape and form, therefore it too is logically a multiverse.Since your criteria for a cosmic-scale feat to be multiveral is now fulfilled on Lucifer's part, it's hard to deny that Lucifer's feat being multiversal in scope is unambiguously true.
This sounds like more of the same, "well in that one separate side-plot storyline that involved the IG, alternate realities were used (used), so let's just reverse-project that onto the feat that actually is being discussed" logic.
Obvious is obvious. If you have to read and stitch together several conversations and different plots to get to where you're going because the actual on-panel feat can't stand on its own two legs, that kinda tortured reading is a good indication of how strong the argument originally was.
Originally posted by leonidasWhen the being/artifact's influence or power extends across or affects an endless set of alternate universes -- each of which is a fully functioning universe complete with its own dimensional planes and pocket realities.
^out of curiosity, what definition do you use to conclude that a being is 'multiversal'?
👆
i agree. i imagine you agree that lucifer>>endless, correct? that has been pretty conclusively demonstrated i think. the endless ARE true multiversal entities--dream's influence and power extends across all the alternate earths, and across all dimensions (or at least as many alternate versions as were shown....) death is likewise. but we know lucifer is well above each.
that's a little abc, but SOME is needed to establish a pecking order in dc. we've seen lucifer's mere presence destroy whole dimensions. we've even seen him in the spawnverse. imo, that pretty clearly indicates his scope of influence exceeds what was shown by ck, even leaving out the feat regarding his own creation and what it might or might not mean. would you agree with that?
Originally posted by leonidasThe Endless appear to be multiversal entities. Other times, not so much.
👆i agree. i imagine you agree that lucifer>>endless, correct? that has been pretty conclusively demonstrated i think. the endless ARE true multiversal entities--dream's influence and power extends across all the alternate earths, and across all dimensions (or at least as many alternate versions as were shown....) death is likewise. but we know lucifer is well above each.
that's a little abc, but SOME is needed to establish a pecking order in dc. we've seen lucifer's mere presence destroy whole dimensions. we've even seen him in the spawnverse. imo, that pretty clearly indicates his scope of influence exceeds what was shown by ck, even leaving out the feat regarding his own creation and what it might or might not mean. would you agree with that?
Same with Eternity and Death. Who were also involved in Chaos War.
I don't see a distinction worth a difference here when trying to use ABC logic. It cuts both ways.
Originally posted by leonidasI refer you to every single argument that you've ever had with Mr Master concerning Eternity's and Death's multiversality. Dormammu/Umar murdering Eternity in Defenders. Death annihilating the Cancerverse. Etc.
when have you seen death or eternity (the 616 versions) ever appear to be truly multiversal (as in demonstrate power over an alternate version of reality)? and when have you seen the endless appear to NOT be anything other than truly multiversal entities?
I refer you to either the decades of Vertigo storylines that they were confined to before inching towards mainstream DC guest appearances OR their mainstream DC guest appearances... where most of the time they didn't do sh1t that was multiversal. Just like Eternity and Death most of the time.
Granted, why we're discussing Eternity, Death and the Endless in a Lucifer vs. Chaos King thread makes little sense to me. After all, you yourself pointed out the tenuous nature of ABC logic. Every step we take that is further away from the characters that are actually in this thread only drives home the point to me: if the feat isn't obvious on its own, within the four pages of the published issue it appeared in, and there's nothing that 100% prevents the feat from being universal, then it's probably universal in scope.
That underlined point is the important part. Crisis on Infinite Earths makes no sense whatsoever if you try to confine it to a single universe. Same with Abraxas. You saw the alternate realities/characters clear as day. With Lucifer and Chaos King, it doesn't render their storylines absurd if one were to interpret it as being confined to a single universe. The story could work.
So when the story can work that way, the loaded term, "multiverse," being dropped has little significance with either Lucifer or Chaos King. Why? Because there's an exponential infinitude of difference between someone annihilating a single universe, and someone annihilating every single alternate universe in existence. And elevating a feat/artifact/character into that exponentially higher tier through a patchwork of character statements, ABC logic and reverse-projection of scenes from entirely different comics is just flimsy. It strikes me as more about wishful thinking than anything else.
Sure, there's an argument. It's just a flimsy argument. Like all the White Crown of the Phoenix and "IG>UN>Multiverse" arguments I've had in the past. And based on what I've seen from both sides here with Lucifer and Chaos King, they're equally flimsy.
