Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

^to me, the ck stuff is flimsy only the sense that he was devouring the multiverse in the true sense of the word. alternate earth 54321 was never devoured. neither was earth 72. or earth x.

any argument i've had with masters always revolves around the NATURE of eternity's multiversality. i think he encompasses more than just a single universe. i do NOT think he encompasses any alternate versions. death likewise. that's why death can deal with the cancerverse, but not earth 432. i think/thought we sort of agreed on that. regardless, that's my stance. with that in mind, i would never/have never claimed eternity is a TRUE multiversal entity, nor have i ever seen any indication of such, aside from the mention of the unique multi-eternity entity.

not sure if you've read the whole sandman series, but morpheus was shown interacting with alternate versions of earth during the series. world's end especially focused on the idea. prez rickard was a character morpheus saved in an alternate version of earth from that's world's ruler, boss smiley. he went on (prez) to walk the different (alternate) versions of america. so we have dream extending his power over the a variety of dimensions (even HELL itself) as well as extending his powers across the set of alternate earths. to me, unlike what ck has shown, that is TRULY multiversal levels of power that have nothing at all to do with the dc universe. i'm not sure where there is any ambiguity. /shrug given that, and given that lucifer is well beyond dream, beyond and outside the spheres of influence of ALL the endless, even destiny, that speaks to a massive difference in scope of power between he and ck. i'd place the endless above ck as well, at least in scope of power. depth is a more difficult thing to determine where the endless are concerned.

Originally posted by leonidas
^to me, the ck stuff is flimsy only the sense that he was devouring the multiverse in the true sense of the word. alternate earth 54321 was never devoured. neither was earth 72. or earth x.

Originally posted by leonidas
not sure if you've read the whole sandman series, but morpheus was shown interacting with alternate versions of earth during the series. world's end especially focused on the idea.

Originally posted by ODG
Yet, Lucifer recreating alternate Earth-3 or Earth-X is no issue for you. Are we ignoring Death annihilating the Cancervesse instantly for some reason????????? Interacting with alternate versions of Earth is one thing, annihilating an entire alternate universe is something else entirely. I don't know why you place Dream that far above Death. But that has absolutely no place in this thread. This is about Lucifer and Chaos King.

lucifer recreating earth 3....? dream above death? marvel death? i have no idea what you're saying here.

i'm not ignoring death and the cancerverse. at all. in fact, didn't i bring it up....? the cancerverse is a different universe, yes. like the negative zone is. marvel death could wipe out the negative zone as well i'd wager. but not earth x, and any associated alternate universes. you've lost me.

seems we have differing notions of multiverses after all. not the first time. anyway. eternity/death are multiversal, but their power ends at alternate versions of realities. morpheus' powers cut across realities INCLUDING alternates. hence my reason for seeing the endless>eternity in scope. and we know lucifer>endless. you disagree. not the first time, or last time that'll happen i'm sure.

Originally posted by leonidas
lucifer recreating earth 3....? dream above death? marvel death? i have no idea what you're saying here.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not ignoring death and the cancerverse. at all. the cancerverse is a different universe, yes. like the negative zone is. marvel death could wipe out the negative zone as well i'd wager. but not earth x, and any associated alternate universes. you've lost me.

... ok, whatever.

Originally posted by ODG
Why would dropping a loaded term like "multiverse" in a conversation mark Lucifer's feat as particularly distinctive from Chaos King's? If anybody needs to be reminded, Amadeus Cho, a super-genius also mentioned that Chaos King had consumed most of the "multiverse" as well.

Is it just me, or is the double standard being used here just so ingrained that people can't see how obvious it is? Well, at least I'm not alone here.

I don't need to be reminded, because i wasn't disputing CK's feat to begin with. Tell me, when did you see me arguing that CK's feat isn't multiversal? Because i clearly said in this very same thread, that i believe CK consumed the majority of the multiverse as opposed to a universe, here's my quote:

Originally posted by operator616
Hercules punched CK into that bubble universe where he returned to his primordial state. But CK didn't know that he was bfr'ed, he thought that (due to the bubble universe's emptiness) he consumed the entire multiverse .......

It's from the 3rd page of this thread, so you can check it out for yourself.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=563969&pagenumber=3

On that same page i even said that Lucifer's feat is multiversal, just like the Chaos King's.

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My post which you quoted, had nothing to do with the Chaos King at all. That's what zop said and what i responded to:

Originally posted by zopzop
Lucifer's creation was called both a universe and a multiverse

I quoted this particular part of zop's post (or the paragraph associated with it) merely to clarify that there's stronger evidence alluding to Lucifer's creation being a multiverse apart from his one statement in Lucifer: Nirvana. And never mentioned anything about the Chaos King.

So im not sure about what double standard are you talking about....?

Originally posted by ODG
The Endless appear to be multiversal entities. Other times, not so much.

Don't forget that mainstream DC was a singular universe (there are excpetions where some arcs did feature a multiverse, but generally speaking, it was a singular universe until the 52 universes-wise multiverse was established), when the endless where introduced. In many cases, there was no room for them to function on a multiversal scale, since they're confined in a singular universe.

When there is room for them to be multiversal, they are, here's one example from History of the DC universe, where Destiny is confirmed to operate on more than a single universe (because more than one universe existed at the time):

http://i.imgur.com/rXDy5Gu.jpg?1

Same thing happened in the Lucifer series. When Lucifer created a new totality (independent of Yahweh's multiverse), Death had a role to play there as well.

Even when confined in a singular universe, i recall Dream's dreamstone creating billions of alternate realities, in a JLA Classified arc.

There's never been a story where it features a multiverse, and limits the endless to a universal scale.

Same thing cannot be said about Eternity and Death.

And my personal view regarding Eternity jumping from universal to multiversal, is pretty simple: Every time we see a multiversal Eternity (like in Defenders v1, Defenders v3, Captain Marvel, Infinity Crusade, etc..) we must consider it as "multi-Eternity" (the totality of all eternities) which was referenced in FF annual 2001. That's how i see it.

Originally posted by operator616
I don't need to be reminded, because i wasn't disputing CK's feat to begin with. Tell me, when did you see me arguing that CK's feat isn't multiversal? Because i clearly said in this very same thread, that i believe CK consumed the majority of the multiverse as opposed to a universe, here's my quote:

Originally posted by ODG
That underlined part is my line. Suffice to say, I don't need to push any further. Death could wipe out a stand-alone alternate universe like the Cancerverse (Earth-10011)... but not a stand-alone alternate universe like Earth X (Earth-9997)...

... ok, whatever.

ah. i get what you're saying now. but the cancerverse was special, was it not? wasn't it a universe where life won? there was no death to attempt to stop the take over, is that correct? that would (if accurate) be much different than say, having 616 death cross through a what if and take over earth 4321 where THAT version of death is still alive and well, no?

Originally posted by operator616
......Is that......the only thing you got from the entire series?

But i guess stories involving one-eyed tentacled monster who gets owned all the time, is much more entertaining to read.

Both Steve Englehart's run with Shuma-Gorath in Marvel Premiere and Peter Gillis's run with Shuma-Gorath in Strange Tales Vol 2 were damn good stories.

Like zop said, Vertigo is pretentious crap. The people who like it are probably the same people who like to say they love the movie "Lost In Translation".

Originally posted by ODG
Why would dropping a loaded term like "multiverse" in a conversation mark Lucifer's feat as particularly distinctive from Chaos King's? If anybody needs to be reminded, Amadeus Cho, a super-genius also mentioned that Chaos King had consumed most of the "multiverse" as well.

Is it just me, or is the double standard being used here just so ingrained that people can't see how obvious it is? Well, at least I'm not alone here. Wait, wat?

This sounds like more of the same, "well in that one separate side-plot storyline that involved the IG, alternate realities were used (used), so let's just reverse-project that onto the feat that actually is being discussed" logic.

Obvious is obvious. If you have to read and stitch together several conversations and different plots to get to where you're going because the actual on-panel feat can't stand on its own two legs, that kinda tortured reading is a good indication of how strong the argument originally was.

Nobody reverse-projecting any logic here, though talking about double standards it's funny to me why you would bring up the Ultraverse arc in a discussion where you yourself claim that a feat is definitely multiversal only when showcased in a series involving alternate universes.

With Lucifer, we have two indisputable instances pointing out that his feat was multiverse; 1)his own unchallengeable word, and 2)the fact that his creation is treated as being equivalent to Yahweh's(whose creation was proven to be a multiverse).

The way I see it, the issue here isn't so much as the evidence presented in favor of Lucifer being flimsy, as much as it is your inability to accept it simply due to it being in favor of a DC character.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Lucifer doesn't lie, and he doesn't add or delete any particular details of his doings when narrating them to others. Lucifer is one of the few characters in comics whose word alone can be trusted upon to be completely valid.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Nobody reverse-projecting any logic here, though talking about double standards it's funny to me why you would bring up the Ultraverse arc in a discussion where you yourself claim that a feat is definitely multiversal only when showcased in a series involving alternate universes.

Originally posted by Epicurus
With Lucifer, we have two indisputable instances pointing out that his feat was multiverse; 1)his own unchallengeable word, and 2)the fact that his creation is treated as being equivalent to Yahweh's(whose creation was proven to be a multiverse).

Originally posted by Epicurus
The way I see it, the issue here isn't so much as the evidence presented in favor of Lucifer being flimsy, as much as it is your inability to accept it simply due to it being in favor of a DC character.

That you're offended someone would treat Lucifer's feat as universal strikes me as being just as arbitrary as zopzop's annoyance. They're both equally baseless. Get over it.

Originally posted by CortSether
Both Steve Englehart's run with Shuma-Gorath in Marvel Premiere and Peter Gillis's run with Shuma-Gorath in Strange Tales Vol 2 were damn good stories.

Like zop said, Vertigo is pretentious crap. The people who like it are probably the same people who like to say they love the movie "Lost In Translation".

Scarjo! Dem b00bs! Dat butt!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
FU! I loved Lost In Translation.

👆

Originally posted by ODG
And Amadeus Cho had reason to lie? Double-standard is double-standard.

Originally posted by ODG

I'm talking about Infinity War and Infinity Crusade where supposedly alternate reality Cosmic Cubes were used and arguablly transdimensional travel was part of the plot. But if you want to bring up Nemesis and the Negro Blade to deflect from Chaos King vs. Lucifer, you might as well since that seems to be the go-to tactic throughout this entire thread.

Originally posted by ODG

Because 1) Cho's scientific calculations were, in any way, suspect when it actually came to the feat at hand, and 2) Marvel hasn't had a storied treatment of the term, "multiverse," richly established by many storylines. Double-standard is double-standard.

But anyways, since you claim that a multiversal being definitely constitutes an infinitude of power beyond a universal being, does a host of Celestials beat the current IG iyo?

Originally posted by ODG
If that's the best argument you actually have because the feat within the four corners of the comic book it appeared in isn't good enough to stand on its own two feet, "You don't like DC!" then, ok, whatever. How you would go about defending such an accusation being thrown back in your face is something I'll leave you to deal with. Double-standard is double-standard.

That you're offended someone would treat Lucifer's feat as universal strikes me as being just as arbitrary as zopzop's annoyance. They're both equally baseless. Get over it.

I am offended that someone would call the strongest evidence posted in favor of Lucifer(his own word) as indisputable, because that either reeks of sheer ignorance of how the character was written under Carey or literal quan-level trollery.

hey, i'm not bias..... 😕

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer is easily the best-written abstructual character in comics.

Originally posted by CortSether
Like zop said, Vertigo is pretentious crap. T

😂

Originally posted by NemeBro
Have you considered the possibility that you just aren't very intelligent?

No.

Originally posted by leonidas
hey, i'm not bias..... 😕