Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Cogito
You're right, this isn't hard. He's emulating his father's creation almost exactly. Every line of text makes that blatantly obvious, as he compares what he does to how it was before, as he clearly copies the biblical creation story, etc. To say that he is bound by something that he casually created, is stupid. Hell, in your scan he even goes out of his way to say that all this is [b]not necessary. [/B]

Read the comics please. Stop arguing to argue.

Originally posted by ODG
And lest you not be aware of Epicrus' argument with me, he is arguing that by my own standards that I've elucidated on page 8, Lucifer's feat is multiversal.

Originally posted by ODG

This was even before Lucifer created his multiverse. that's a reference to Yahweh's creation.

And anyway, Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse, and guess who created that? It was Lucifer and Michael (for the most part). So he created a multiverse, either way.

Originally posted by ODG
[BIn the meantime, you can have more scans:

[/B]

Here's the full, uncropped scan:

Originally posted by Epicurus
Colloquial references to his creation as a universe don't count as confirmations.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Colloquial references to his creation as a "universe" does not, in fact override what Lucifer himself explains in detail to Mazikeen here:
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_Nirvana_p05_zps856eab24.jpg.html

But if you're willing to concede that by my standards, which I equally applied to Chaos King a well, Lucifer has less claim to multiversality than Chaos King, by all means, admit you've been arguing over nothing but butthurt for pages.

Then, we can move on to where I disprove Lucifer's multiversality. A wholly separate endeavor and one you're conflating with your original argument because you hope that a negative prof fallacy will somehow save you. Hint: it won't.

Originally posted by Epicurus
That's not even his own creation. In fact that scene takes place well before Lucifer got his hands on Michael to forge his Creation.

You guys need to put those archaic 'c2c' comics/scans behind you, and go digital. Look at the quality difference for cripes sake:
http://imgur.com/VMaZha1

Originally posted by Epicurus
Except that it absolutely does. We know that the term "dimension" is used synonymously with the term "universe" in comic fiction. We know that Lucifer's creation was a multiverse. Adding two and two together shouldn't be all that difficult, even for you dumb.

What a spectacularly unimpressive comeback. Quick question; do you know which of the 2 children Lilim were ousted by Lilith for leading the Lilim to Lucifer's servitude? Better yet, which of them was punished for the crime of making out with a human woman(daughter of eve) and which one was murdered for lying to his race? Since you've been so busy browsing through your Lucifer comics, let's see you answer this one.

No you didn't. You deflected that by proclaiming that I was referring to pre-CK Mikaboshi. Liar, liar pants on fire!

I am beginning to run out of pot/kettle memes to post, but you don't seem to be getting tired of posting the same irony-laced accusation of me lying to save face from the complete havoc that you just inflicted on yourself by posting a scan which literally confirms my claim that the feat was performed within minutes in terms of real time and then acting as if it actually vindicates your position. Whatever. You tried. You lied. You cried. Time to move on.

Universe. Reread my standard and then apply it to Lucifer's creation of his universe:

Originally posted by ODG
The term, "multiverse," is a very loaded term. There's story arcs that have used it differently.

Nobody disagrees that a multiverse is a set of alternate universes. But I've seen it used to also describe (i) every single alternate universe (omniverse, essentially), (ii) every single alternate universe that stems from a single prime universe, or (iii) a single universe that happens to consist of multiple layers of dimensional planes/realities (quantum zone, crimson cosmos, hyperspace, Dreamtime, etc.) -- and is only called "multiverse" because the term universe denotes normally traversable space and doesn't account for all the dimensional layers or pocket realities that are contained in a single, fully-formed universe/reality/continuity.

I think in arguments like this, or any time the term "countless universes," "all dimensions," "all reality," etc., gets used, it better be 100% damn clear that the storyline involves alternate realities/universes. Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis, Abraxas, Masters of Doom are examples.

If it's not clearly involving fully alternate realities/universes, then phuck it, the story is probably universal in scope. No matter how often a loaded term like "multiverse" or "universes" gets thrown about.

And for me, Chaos War falls in that category. There's an argument that Chaos King ate the multiverse, sure... but it isn't a strong argument. If Chaos King really did do all that, the comics did a damn good job of hiding it while only hinting at it. And considering the number of tie-ins -- some that even speak to Chaos King's rise to power -- it's really doubtful that he ate Earths 1345, 234677, 123587 and 9999 and countless others... all off-panel. That's just typically not how comic stories are told.

Originally posted by ODG
He was bound, since that time gradient was actually used against him by the Basanos. Didn't I just post the scan?????

Originally posted by operator616
This was even before Lucifer created his multiverse. that's a reference to Yahweh's creation.

And anyway, Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse, and guess who created that? It was Lucifer and Michael (for the most part). So he created a multiverse, either way.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't you and I already agree that per my standards Lucifer's claim to multiversality is as flimsy

You mean canonically confirmed multiple times?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Parading that scan as if it proves anything at all. Lol, he wasn't bound. The time gradient worked against him such that even if he were a second too late, that would have meant a whole day would pass for the Basanos to establish their dominance over his universe:
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_23_p04_zpsd37c80e4.jpg.html

Just posts of nonsense and strawmans.

Originally posted by Cogito
You mean canonically confirmed multiple times?

By all means, reach beyond the four corners of the comics that the feat actually appeared in, ignore the plethora and multitude of evidence tying to down, and use loaded terms sparsely dropped in storyline thrice-removed from the actual feat in question to get where you're gong.

Totally not forced. Totally not what I've dealt with when it comes to the Phoenixforce, the Infinity Gauntlet, and Chaos King himself.

Originally posted by ODG
Best to learn how to use the word "colloquial," before dropping it in a conversation and butchering it completely. It's oafish.

Originally posted by ODG

Focus, moron.

Originally posted by ODG

You're arguing that by mystandards, Lucifer's feat was multiversal.

Originally posted by ODG

So you can't just ignore the fact that I've already addressed the sparsity of evidence suggesting that Lucifer's feat was multiversal as opposed to universal.

Originally posted by ODG

But if you're willing to concede that by my standards, which I equally applied to Chaos King a well, Lucifer has less claim to multiversality than Chaos King, by all means, admit you've been arguing over nothing but butthurt for pages.

Originally posted by ODG

Then, we can move on to where I disprove Lucifer's multiversality. A wholly separate endeavor and one you're conflating with your original argument because you hope that a negative prof fallacy will somehow save you. Hint: it won't. Who said it was? Are you stupid? Lucifer's universe wasn't greater in scope to God's original creation or Elaine's original, you interminable clod. In case you can't follow, I'm posting evidence that show we're dealing with universes here. Not multiverses.

You're plain awful at this thing.👇

Originally posted by Galan007
You guys need to put those archaic 'c2c' comics/scans behind you, and go digital. Look at the quality difference for cripes sake:
http://imgur.com/VMaZha1

Originally posted by ODG
Just posts of nonsense and strawmans. You mean we just passed over where Lucifer didn't correct Mazikeen over her use of the term, "universe," but rather her use of the term "realm"? With a loaded term whose legitimate definition within the context of the story you haven't even begun to establish and are just taking for granted because that's what people do to inflate feats when the feat itself, cannot stand on its own two feet? Ok, then. Glad we cleared up that up.

You're cherry picking bits of comments and scans that you think support your view. That Mazikeen said "realm" or "universe" is irrelevant, what matters is [u]only[/i] that was Lucifer says next is "it is a totality, a muliverse".

Done. End of argument.

Has anyone brought this up?
http://imgur.com/GqxOhdG
http://imgur.com/CaxjDU6
http://imgur.com/TJtmrb5
"I believe that the mirrors contained other universes. Other creations. Rejected ones, perhaps."

Originally posted by ODG
... how much bigger are the picture files?

Originally posted by Epicurus
You're one of those guys whom upon being accused of illiteracy, asks "What does illiterate mean?"

Why are you such a big fan of talking to yourself in your own posts?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Which it absolutely is. Any argument to the contrary reeks of ignorance, bias against the character or good ol' fashioned trolling. And your posts have been a combination of all 3 so far.

What, where, when, how? Oh, you mean to say the completely and utterly worthless scans you've been spamming for the last 2 pages? Sorry, that doesn't count.

I claimed the evidence in favor of both was roughly equal(though unlike Lucifer, I am not aware of their being any mention of alternate universes in Chaos War which would validate, beyond a shadow of a doubt that CK's feat was multipversal)/

Reread the conversation from the first 8 pages.

Originally posted by Epicurus
As I said before, you can try and you will fail. Better men have tried and better men have failed after all. At least Air Legend actually tried to argue with the comics themselves instead of relying on cropped scans leeched from respect threads, with their context completely butchered for the sake of winning a shitpost trolling contest.

You're plain awful at this thing.👇

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't you and I already agree that per my standards Lucifer's claim to multiversality is as flimsy, if not flimsier than Chaos King's? So, by all means, exit the conversation.

You missed the point. I wasn't saying anything about Lucifer's multiverse. I was referring to Yahweh's.

See, going by your standards, Yahweh's creation is a multiverse, because we see actual alternate realities. And Lucifer along with Michael created that......so how about that?

You know, even after Elaine merged her creation with the others, it was still called "the universe", singular:

http://i.imgur.com/wISDNKO.jpg?1

When we know it is a multiverse.

http://i.imgur.com/9PYIyal.jpg?1

"universeS that need saving"

Those scans are after Lucifer #69 (after Elaine became God and merged her creation with the others).

That's just how Carey chose to reference the multiverse (by saying "universe" or creation).

Originally posted by Cogito
You're cherry picking bits of comments and scans that you think support your view. That Mazikeen said "realm" or "universe" is irrelevant, what matters is [u]only[/i] that was Lucifer says next is "it is a totality, a muliverse".

Done. End of argument.

Originally posted by ODG
1. So was the story where Thanos said he'd rule over "all the unvierseS" with his IG in that one side-plot that nobody cared about. It's meager, singular existence doesn't outweigh the multitude of actual comics where the feat is displayed and expounded upon directly.

2. An offhand comment where he corrected her noting ucifer created his own "realm." "Realm," denoting Hell and Heaven and the sort since Lucifer's reign over Hell was what Mazikeen was most familiar with.

3. When it is outright stated several doen times over that what he created a universe. Then yes, you need more than an anecdotal reference to the loaded term, "multiverse." Your standards may be lighter (laughably so), but mine aren't. And lest you not be aware of Epicrus' argument with me, he is arguing that by my own standards that I've elucidated on page 8, Lucifer's feat is multiversal.

Originally posted by ODG

Universe. Reread my standard and then apply it to Lucifer's creation of his universe:

Originally posted by ODG
Because he was bound by the time gradient that he had established. That time gradient could be changed if he were there. But he's still operating in his relative time. And eons passed before paradise was even populated. If he did do everything in relative minutes for himself, there was no need for the time gradient and no need for eons to pass by in his universe. So, seriously, you can argue against the necessary conclusion here, but you have no actual rebuttal.

Just posts of nonsense and strawmans.

I agree that your posts reek of nonsense and strawmans, and increasingly so in this very thread.