Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by operator616
You missed the point. I wasn't saying anything about Lucifer's multiverse.

Originally posted by operator616
You know, even after Elaine merged her creation with the others, it was still called "the universe", singular:

http://i.imgur.com/wISDNKO.jpg?1

When we know it is a multiverse.

There were three universes, they got merged into one. They didn't merge into a triple universe where there are three alternate Earths floating about and would, for some others with low standards, suffice for an actual multiverse since anything that universe+ multiverse. Not I I look at it, and I highly doubt that's how you look at it either.

Originally posted by Galan007
Has anyone brought this up?
http://imgur.com/GqxOhdG
http://imgur.com/CaxjDU6
http://imgur.com/TJtmrb5
"I believe that the mirrors contained other universes. Other creations. Rejected ones, perhaps."

Some of this is so pathetic, it's hilarious

Originally posted by ODG
Point made. I'm beginning to think you guys haven't read these comics in a long time outside of trying to debate Marvel vs. DC:

There were three universes, they got merged into one. They didn't merge into a triple universe where there are three alternate Earths floating about and would, for some others with low standards, suffice for an actual multiverse since anything that universe+ multiverse. Not I I look at it, and I highly doubt that's how you look at it either.

She said creation, not universe. All 3 were commonly referred to as "creations" and that term does not signify universe or multiverse by itself.

Nice fail 👆

Originally posted by ODG
How rote.

Originally posted by ODG
Seems like someone's losing steam in the face of all the actual evidence.

Originally posted by ODG

It is not roughly equal. It is flimsier in Lucifer's case.

Originally posted by ODG
And we're already aware of your admitting that you don't know enough about the characters in Chaos War to have an intelligent conversation. Then again, Eternity, Cho, Hercules, dropping names like the Living Tribunal, the arbiter of the Marvel Multiverse... that all glosses over your head I'm sure conveniently because you'd rather not approach it.

Originally posted by ODG

Reread the conversation from the first 8 pages. You act like these cropped scans delete important context. I downsize them because I abhor posting obnoxiously over-sized scans. That you tried to suggest I was leaving out context when your strawman was already defused just underscores how empty such accusations are. It also highlights how hollow your position really is. Step your game up. Read the comics. Stop lying. And deal with the feat in question.

Originally posted by Epicurus
UniverseS. Yahweh's rejects. Failed creations:
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p08_zps9ae373dd.jpg.html
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p09_zps80211afd.jpg.html
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p21_zps9f9bb337.jpg.html

With alternate versions of the characters in the storyline, eg, Cal:
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_38_p20_zps8ed288b7.jpg.html
Ergo, an actual multiverse. Which Lucifer's creation is equivalent to. As I said before, adding two and two isn't difficult for anyone not called ODG on these forums.👆

Because you aren't completely ignoring the standards I set forth and how much evidence there is that throws Lucifer's actual feat into the universal category.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Which is relevant how exactly? But while we're at it, point out to me exactly where I denied that time was differently scaled in Lucifer's creation.

Originally posted by ODG
No more substantive than all the evidence posted in favor of Chaos King where the characters in those stories had far more side-adventures with alternate universes twice-removed from Chaos King's actual feat at hand to the point where a clear-as-day multiversal being's name is dropped in addition to the loaded term, "multiverse," more times in the actual storyline (not in storyline several times removed). And certainly nowhere near enough to demonstrate that we should ignore the plethora of evidence shows Lucifer's feat dealt with a universe.

Because you aren't completely ignoring the standards I set forth and how much evidence there is that throws Lucifer's actual feat into the universal category. It's relevant because eons literally passed by when Lucifer was molding his creation. Stop acting absentminded.

I have proven my case in accordance with the criterion you established several pages ago, you're simply too blind to see it.

Originally posted by ODG
It's relevant because eons literally passed by when Lucifer was molding his creation. Stop acting absentminded.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Just did. I also pointed out the alternate Cal to drive home my point. Needless to say, there is going to be ample amounts of mental gymnastics to twist around this latest piece of evidence as well.

Originally posted by Cogito
She said creation, not universe. All 3 were commonly referred to as "creations" and that term does not signify universe or multiverse by itself.

Nice fail 👆

Here's where Elaine lets her mind expand to her creation:

Do you see an endless set of alternate universes there? Or just the same Earth-centric, single universe, focus that dominated the Lucifer series? Read the comics. Trying to reverse-inflate the majority of the scenes when the pertinent scenes directly at issue don't even come close to illustrating what you're hoping they signify isn't how comics were designed to be read.

But I already stated that, didn't I?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Spamming up the thread with irrelevant scans doesn't count as evidence.

... and you havethe gall to suggest I'm supposed to be reading his feat as involving endless alternate universes, few minutes of time, involving endless alternate Earths off-panel, with endless Paradise derivatives, with endless Adam/Eve alternates that were being created and formed and maniplated...

... all off-panel by Lucifer? This is some grade-A horseh1t right here. And the more you try to run away from the actual comic that has the actual feat in it, the worse it gets.

Originally posted by ODG
And what is that creation? Is it a set of endless alternate universes? Or is it a single universe with single Earth, where beings from the three universes that were vying for control over them sit in the same arena, on the same Earth?

Here's where Elaine lets her mind expand to her creation:

Do you see an endless set of alternate universes there? Or just the same Earth-centric, single universe, focus that dominated the Lucifer series? Read the comics. Trying to reverse-inflate the majority of the scenes when the pertinent scenes directly at issue don't even come close to illustrating what you're hoping they signify isn't how comics were designed to be read.

But I already stated that, didn't I?

Awful argument is awful argument.👇

Originally posted by Epicurus
Except this isn't twice removed at all. We're literally shown their Creations being equivalent.

Originally posted by Epicurus
We're literally shown alternate universes existing for Yahweh's Creation. Which means that such has to be the case for Lucifer as well logically speaking.

Awful.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Which is minutes in real time. As your own scan states. Point proven.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Lol, you mean to tell me that comic book storylines generally aren't Earth-centric?

Originally posted by ODG
Point made.

Then we agree that Lucifer did create a multiverse, one way or the other (since Yahweh's is unarguably a multiverse)? Cool. Glad that's settled.

Originally posted by ODG
I'm beginning to think you guys haven't read these comics in a long time outside of trying to debate Marvel vs. DC:

Id appreciate if you were less hostile. I could've said the same sh*t about you when you posted that Lucifer scan (you thought it referenced Lucifer's creation, when in fact, it was Yahweh's)...instead, i prefer civil conversations.

Originally posted by ODG

There were three universes, they got merged into one. They didn't merge into a triple universe where there are three alternate Earths floating about and would, for some others with low standards, suffice for an actual multiverse since anything that universe+ multiverse. Not I I look at it, and I highly doubt that's how you look at it either.

I like how you left out this part of my post when quoting it:

http://i.imgur.com/9PYIyal.jpg?1

That's what confirms that Eliane's new creation contained universeS.

Same thing with Yahweh's. Epicurus and myself have already posted scans which you already saw, that Yahweh's creation contains alternate universes. Yet it was referred to as simply "the universe".

Originally posted by ODG
These are scans of the actual feat in question along with the storyline that directly expounds on the feat in question. Any assertion otherwise is just trolling. And your suggestions to the contrary just show how ugly your bias is. Posting scans of the actual feat, where Lucifer creates his universe, taking eons, focusing on a single Earth, on a single Paradise, with a single Adam/Eve pair...

... and you havethe gall to suggest I'm supposed to be reading his feat as involving endless alternate universes, few minutes of time, involving endless alternate Earths off-panel, with endless Paradise derivatives, with endless Adam/Eve alternates that were being created and formed and maniplated...

... all off-panel by Lucifer? This is some grade-A horseh1t right here. And the more you try to run away from the actual comic that has the actual feat in it, the worse it gets.

I have the gall to suggest based on actual on-panel evidence which shows alternate universes(and characters) being involved:
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p08_zps9ae373dd.jpg.html
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p09_zps80211afd.jpg.html
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_37_p21_zps9f9bb337.jpg.html
http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/TheGodKiller666/media/Lucifer_38_p20_zps8ed288b7.jpg.html

Not my fault your obvious bias+butthurt dual problem causes you to dismiss every bit of evidence posted in Lucifer's favor and act as if the respect thread leeched scans that you've spammed this thread up and down with are the only bit of evidence that counts.

Pandora's box has been opened now.🙂 Don't say that I didn't warn you, kiddo.

Originally posted by ODG
Insisting is not proving. And reverse-projection isn't establishment. All off-panel, logically speaking. Because when we see Luciferpassing by a single star, and floating over a single Earth, and creating a single Paradise, and talking o a single Adam/Eve pair... we're supposed to logically assume he's doing this simultaneously across an endless set of alternate universes... all off-panel.

Awful. And eons in Lucifer's time. You're not even denying anything at this point. Just posting for the sake of posting. Strawman is made of straw. Either address what I say or don't.

Minutes in real time. As your own scans so beautifully illustrate much to your chagrin. Try and be objective for once.

Originally posted by operator616
Then we agree that Lucifer did create a multiverse

Originally posted by operator616
Id appreciate if you were less hostile.

Originally posted by operator616
I like how you left out this part of my post when quoting it:

http://i.imgur.com/9PYIyal.jpg?1

That's what confirms that Eliane's new creation contained universeS.

It'd be like Superman saving the Earth from Galactus and then winking at Lois, "Well, let me know if any more planets need saving," and someone twisting that into justification for arguing that Superman saved countless planetS, not just the Earth. Somehow... all off-panel.

... awful. Just awful.

Originally posted by Epicurus
This is an actual scan from a comic where Lucifer expounds upon the feat he performed in Lucifer#13-16:

Not my fault your obvious bias+butthurt dual problem causes you to dismiss every bit of evidence posted in Lucifer's favor and act as it the respect thread leeched scans that you've spammed this thread up and down with are the only bit of evidence that counts.

Pandora's box has been opened now.🙂 Don't say that I didn't warn you, kiddo.

Thank you for punctuating just how terribly you couldn't actually challenge my application of my standard.

If the actual feat isn't clear, random rote conversations using loaded terms are meaningless. I'm not going to assume the feat is infinitely of a greater magnitude because of that, necessarily forcing me to read the comic in an absurd way as that infinititude of difference occurs completely off-panel.

Lucifer tells the newly welcomed inhabitants of his creation standing around on an Earth looking at the sky to not worship anybody:

Somehow, I'm supposed to take this scene, apply a loaded term to it (because, hey, it was mentioned that one time, in that one conversation removed several times over), over-inflate the original scene by infinite magnitudes and interpret it as Lucifer welcoming countless alternate versions of inhabitants into his multiversal creation standing around on countless alternate Earths (off-panel, artist could only show one here), looking up at infinite alternate skies at endless visions of Lucifer across a multiverse (also off-panel).

Because, y'know, when someone mentions the loaded term, "multiversal," once, you have to twist anything and everything to suit for purposes of d1ck-measuring with a different comic company's character.

This is not how you read comics. And it certainly isn't how you argue, much less discuss them. Awful.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Posting of actual proof is though. The antithesis of which you've done like a broken record for the last 3 pages or so of this thread.

Minutes in real time. As your own scans so beautifully illustrate much to your chagrin. Try and be objective for once.

WTF is going on in this thread?
You guys gotta be sleep deprived over this.

Originally posted by ODG
A loaded term was dropped once in a storyline several times removed from the actual feat in a conversation correcting Mazikeen's use of the term, "realm." Cho mentioned the same loaded term twiceover in the actual storyline in a conversation where Living Tribunal, Hera's continuum universe, etc. were also dropped. And somehow, by my standards, Lucifer has as much claim to multiversality.

Originally posted by ODG

Thank you for punctuating just how terribly you couldn't actually challenge my application of my standard.

Originally posted by ODG

If the actual feat isn't clear, random rote conversations using loaded terms are meaningless. I'm not going to assume the feat is infinitely of a greater magnitude because of that, necessarily forcing me to read the comic in an absurd way as that infinititude of difference occurs completely off-panel.

Originally posted by ODG

Lucifer tells the newly welcomed inhabitants of his creation standing around on an Earth looking at the sky to not worship anybody:

Originally posted by ODG

Somehow, I'm supposed to take this scene, apply a loaded term to it, over-inflate it by infinite magnitudes and interpret it as Lucifer welcoming countless alternate versions of inhabitants of his creation standing around on countless alternate Earths (off-panel, artist could only show one here), lookingup at infinite alternate skies at endless Lucifer's across a multiverse (aklso off-panel).

Because, y'know, when someone mentions the loaded term, "multiversal," once, you have to twist anything and everything to suit for purposes of d1ck-measuring with a different comic company's character.

This is not how you read comics. And it certainly isn't how you argue, much less discuss them. Awful. Try to read the comics without an ulterior motive.

Originally posted by ODG
The exact opposite.

Then you're outright ignoring evidence.

Because going by your own standards, Yahweh's creation is a multiverse (we see alternate universes), Lucifer and Michael created it (ive got on panel and bio confirmations for it, so don't try to deny it).

So tell me, based on what are you exactly denying this fact?

Originally posted by ODG
I'd appreciate if you didn't keep posting for the sake of posting when you already agreed Lucifer's case for multiversality is as flimsy, and indeed flimsier than Chaos King's.

I never agreed with you. I believe both CK and Lucifer's feats are multiversal.

I didn't engage you since you made it clear that your standards for being multiversal, is that the comic should actually depict those universes (which Lucifer's creation didn't)

But when you start denying that Yahweh's creation is a multiverse despite the on panel evidence.....then i gotta reply because you're spreading misinformation.

that aside......There are other things indicating that Lucifer is multiversal (and beyond).

We have seen Dream being scared of Lucifer in Sandman #23:

http://i.imgur.com/kBZ62dH.jpg?1

5 issues prior, in Sandman #18, a thousand humans managed to change the whole universe with the power of Dream (From its beginning to the end) in Sandman v2 #18:

http://i.imgur.com/fKDqYQ8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2nIVjD6.jpg

pay attention to this panel:

http://i.imgur.com/g08hjDH.jpg?2

JLA classified #36:

batman says that materioptikon (dreamstone) created multiple realities:

http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg

earlier in the issue it's stated that the Red King created infinite versions of himself (or billion at least), which would mean he created billions of universes given that each version of him is from a different universe:

http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg

sandman #7, Dreamstone is part of Dream's power

http://i.imgur.com/2JAKc1p.jpg

That's literally creating billions of realities instantly with a part of Dream's power.

So just imagine how powerful Dream must be? Yet to be literally dwarfed by Lucifer?

Forget the fact that Death (who operates across multiverseS), wasn't able to claim Lucifer.

So you would have me believe that Lucifer is "universal"? Oh please.

Those facts above are also part of the reason i think that Lucifer is above CK.

Originally posted by ODG
What a horrible butchering. If that random mention was the writer's way of telling the reader, "Hey, btw, Elaine's new creation contains an endless set of universes!" than your standards are horribly low.

It'd be like Superman saving the Earth from Galactus and then winking at Lois, "Well, let me know if any more planets need saving," and someone twisting that into justification for arguing that Superman saved countless planetS, not just the Earth. Somehow... all off-panel.

... awful. Just awful.

Eh, your analogy doesn't work here.

It also actually makes perfect sense. Yahweh's creation is a multiverse (i hope we're not denying that are we? because that'd be against your standards, you know) yet, it was called "the universe" on panel time and time again.

Awful? Think again.