Originally posted by EpicurusWhat a laughable attempt to label the actual scenes of Lucifer's creation feat and all the scenes that occur inside his creation, involving his creation, describing his creation as "random" or "spamming." When did you find the actual issues of Lucifer to be irrelevant? And I don't know why poaching from a respect thread would be in anyway objectionable. Doesn't matter, as they're not from respect threads anyway. Ask me to post a random page from a random issue from the Lucifer series that hasn't yet been posted here if you'd like. I mean, I don't mind overturning all your trite preconceptions on their a$$ at every turn. No like my deconstruction of your trollery can't be complete and utter.
Spamming random scans(leeched from respect threads no doubt)
Originally posted by EpicurusThere's no nugget of truth hidden beneath your clumsy strawman. Most of the Lucifer series occurred on a single Earth (God's original), or Lucifer's or Elaine's. That statement of mine remains true. It did not occur across endless alternate reality Earths characteristic of a multiversal tale. And this indisputable fact only belies the supposed true multiversality of each of their creations (especially Lucifer's). Hickman's stories about Incursions clearly are set across the endless alternate universes/earths of the Marvel Mutiverse. Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths involed countless alternate Earths. The same can't be said for Carey's Lucifer, or Pak'sChaos War.
Are you trying to counter my point here that Lucifer was a bible-based comic series with an obvious Earth-centric focus on the main storyline? Because if you are, bang-up job you've done of it so far.
Originally posted by Epicurusyour own hypocrisy, bias, butthurt and pointless resentment. Lucifer as a fictional character in literature is not lessened by limiting him to his actions in his story. The needless over-inflation and reverse-projection here isn't any different than tat involving the old debates over the Infinity Gauntlet and the White Phoenix of the Crown. It might be "cool" from an adolescent perspective to interpret the scope of these characters to be infinite magntiudes above what they were actually portrayed as to the common reader. But if you have to accomplish this with wordplay, out-of-context conversations snippets, and a blind eye to the indisputable mountain of evidence to the contrary, you're doing it wrong.
I'm dealing with
Anyway, the bashing, the lying, the argument that scans from the series are random spamming, completely hiding from entire posts altogether... you've done a terrible job salvaging any of your arguments. Then again, when you decided to challenge the application of my standard, you probably shouldn't have approached it in such a two-faced hypocritical manner. It's your fault really.
Originally posted by EpicurusPretty sure neither of them were ever so absent-minded to accuse anyone of "random spamming" when someone was posting scans from the actual comic issues in question:
Don't worry. We have quan for that as well. All's we need now is a full-on confession on your part. After all, if you're capable of doing the hitherto impossible feat of fellating floppy's sloppy seconds, I am pretty sure that you're capable of admitting that quan currently holds your soul in his grasp.👆
Epicurus: "Herpity derpity derp!!!! Not relevant to whether Lucifer made a universe or multiverse!!!! Random spamming of scans is not relevant to present issue, herp derp!!!!11"
What a bumbling oaf, you are.
Originally posted by ODG
... you take that back about the immortal Jay-Z. crackers
Jay z is a slave to the illuminati like everybody in show biz.
you want the truth? handle this
and this
Originally posted by Galan007
By this you mean that she embodies the concept of death across at least 3 different creations(ie. the mainstream DCU, Yahweh-verse, and Lucifer-verse), correct..?
Yes.
Originally posted by ODG
I'm reading the actual feat. You're reaching to completely separate comics to distract from the actual scene in question and hoping reverse-projection serves to override the plain presentation of the comic. Because that kind of self-serving reasoning doesn't equally apply to Chaos King? Please.
.....Are you trying to avoid the question because it contradicts your argument?
Im willing to put Lucifer's feat in issue #13 aside. And im gonna ask you, now: Lucifer + Michael created Yahweh's multiverse (confirmed beyond doubt, by your own standards), do you acknowledge that? (you don't really have much of a choice here, but i want to hear it, go on). Simple question, requires a simple answer.
When you do acknowledge it, i want you to explain how by your standards does Chaos King win (because your standards dictate that he was universal)
Originally posted by ODG
Calling it "universe" time and time again weakens the case. It doesn't strengthen it. Has this conversation degenerated that far, that this doesn't strike you as weakening Lucifer's claim to multiversality? That it's referred to dozens of times as a universe? FFs, people. Twisting scenes completely out of context to make them infinitely higher in scope than they naturally appear by replacing the definition of words to mean whatever you want them to mean, is just a sign of lazy, arbitrary convenience.
It actually proves that Carey is using the terms "multiverse" and "universe" interchangeably. Im going by your own standards here, we see alternate universes portrayed on panel, we see an alternate version of Cal (who btw, was still present until the end of the series), and yet, it isn't a multiverse?
Yahweh's creation (a multiverse) is referred to as a "universe" just as well, so calling Lucifer's creation "universe" doesn't really contradict anything. Besides, apart from Nirvana stating it was a multiverse we also know that it was the equivalent of Yahweh's creation via narration:
http://i.imgur.com/irJz4IF.jpg?1
"only seen once before"
That and if you read the comics, you'd know that it was treated as an equal, strengthens its case.
But anyway, im going to put all that aside because i know you're going to repeat your point of "it was referred to as a universe dozens of times on panel" till you get the last word in and im not interested in circular debates nor do i really care getting the last word in; so please answer my initial question at the top.
Originally posted by ODG
Read the comic.
I read it just fine. After all, im not the one who's blindly throwing scans of Lucifer's "universe" when it wasn't even his universe to begin with (just like you did a few posts ago, remember?).
In the meantime though, let's continue the proof that Lucifer is multiversal.
We know that Death can operate beyond the mainstream Vertigo multiverse (even though you don't agree that Lucifer's creation is a multiverse, it's unarguable that this creation of his is beyond Yahweh's multiverse, completely separate), which happened in Lucifer #25, her 2008 bio confirms that she does have a role to play in his cosmos:
http://i.imgur.com/JbkdIPk.jpg?1
Yet we know that she has no claim over Lucifer, even in his weakened state:
http://i.imgur.com/epJdnVW.jpg
That right there, suggests that Lucifer is beyond a trans-multiversal being (Death). this has already been mentioned by other posters, posting the scans for the onlookers to decide how miserably CK compares to Lucifer.
Death is the most powerful of the endless. We know that Destiny also operates across universeS (history of DCU):
http://i.imgur.com/rXDy5Gu.jpg?1
Btw, i also missed a showing for Dream (i posted this before) In Morrison's JLA, Doctor Destiny after projecting his dream self to the material world, achieves absolute omnipotence:
http://i.imgur.com/NpmtOIh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ErXsqKb.jpg
In the end it literally took 7 JLA members to project their dream selves, to make it 7 omnipotents (the exact terminology was actually mentioned) to defeat him.
Originally posted by leonidas
also proof positive that the vertigo universe was indeed a true-in-every-sense-of-the-word MULTIVERSE.
👆 And nobody should be arguing otherwise. That's blatantly ignoring on panel evidence.
Heck, even Tim Hunter created a multiverse composed of thousands of alternate universes without even knowing it, in the events of Books of Magic v2:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
books of magic #58/60:
http://i.imgur.com/cpIaSXf.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/8NA6oQY.jpg?1
as the 1st scan shows, tim creates alternate worlds/universes, by splitting off his emotions, creating an alternate tim which represents this emotion, and an entire universe in the process.......second scan shows that there are thousand of worlds that he spawned.
Im assuming you'll want confirmation that these are universes and not merely worlds/planets, because it was never directly stated that tim created a thousand universes, it was always referred to as worlds.
name of magic: confirms that tim saved not just one dimension (the main one) but many others (which were his creations):
http://i.imgur.com/gN3UCTw.jpg?1
proving that what tim created, is dimensions, which are = universes.
books of magic annual #3: On panel, an alternate tim, destroys an entire reality (proving that those alternate worlds, are in fact whole realities):
http://i.imgur.com/dcY7KVP.jpg?1
the impressive part about this is also that each of those alternate tims have a portion of the real tim's magic, and the real tim never even noticed that his power diminished. So it's reasonable to say that tim created those universes with a small fraction of his power.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(btw, Death has claim over Timothy, but not over Lucifer)
We all know how all Vertigo characters compare to Lucifer, don't we?
We know for a fact that Lucifer is the most powerful being in all creation (along with Michael), as stated in Sandman #22, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/Mh652WG.jpg?1
Carey seems sure that Lucifer is, he said so in a Letters page from Lucifer #29:
http://i.imgur.com/w6toR4M.jpg?1
Somehow though, the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (which is filled with multiversal and multiversal+ beings), is universal. Makes perfect sense.......👆
^ If someone were to miss a few random issues of Lucifer and not have read several obscure issues involving Death/Dream outside of Lucifer's series, they'd completely miss out on how multiversal Lucifer actually was. That's really the consequence of your's and operator616's argument. Lucifer's feat on its own two legs depicted across entire consecutive issues, cannot stand on its own two feet as multiversal without pulling from random storylines removed twiceover from the actual feat, sometimes separated several times over.
You don't see a problem with that? It's a stupid argument. That's not how stories are told. That's not how Lucifer was meant to be read.
And that's exactly what my standard bears down on. It's a high standard. And Chaos King certainly doesn't meet it. No matter how many times "multiverse" is dropped, or how all those characters like Thor, Galactus, Cho, Hercules have had adventures involving alternate realities, or that a completely, indisputably multiversal character like Living Tribunal got name-dropped... it doesn't matter.
It's not reasonable to read Chaos War and argue that Chaos King ate nearly all the infinite alternate universes within the Marvel Multiverse off-panel and Supergod Hercules restored same instantly all off-panel. It's not reasonable to read Lucifer and argue that he spent all his time/attention on one Earth among the infinitely countless alternate Earths across his creation, and ignored the rest (or that if he did pay equal attention to them, he did it all off-panel) or that when the Basanos attacked his creation and him directly, they did so simultaneously across countless alternate universes within his creation... off-panel.
That's not how you read Lucifer. That's an utter bastardization. For no other seeming reason than spiting the completely forgettable Chaos King character.
Originally posted by operator616That's the exact god damned issue. What do you mean you're going to put it aside? In heaven's name, what kind of logic dictates that running away from the direct feat at issue, constitutes a reasonable means of discussing it?
Im willing to put Lucifer's feat in issue #13 aside.
Originally posted by operator616Not beyond all doubt at all. Same doubt that clouds Chaos King's multiversality. Eternity's multiversality -- in fact, I was pretty sure you discussed Dormmamu/Umar's assault on the supposedly multiversal Eternity in Defenders already. Maybe it was someone else.
And im gonna ask you, now: Lucifer + Michael created Yahweh's multiverse (confirmed beyond doubt, by your own standards)
Originally posted by operator616No. No, he didn't. And if he did mean to use them interchangeably, then he meant multiverse as a universe. Like Pak likely did. I've explained this before. Normal space-time is the widely-known considered universe, and in fiction, all dimensions outside of normal space-time joined to normal space-time, make it a multiverse. But only a multiverse in name. Because a true multiverse is an endless set of fully-functioning alternate universes, each with their own complimentary subset of dimensions, pocket realms, etc. I've already discussed this on page 8. So if you're going to just ignore this and force your terminology, which you haven't even proven up adequately when it comes to applying my standard, start over.
It actually proves that Carey is using the terms "multiverse" and "universe" interchangeably.
Originally posted by operator616
In the meantime though, let's continue the proof that Lucifer is multiversal.We know that Death can operate beyond the mainstream Vertigo multiverse (even though you don't agree that Lucifer's creation is a multiverse, it's unarguable that this creation of his is beyond Yahweh's multiverse, completely separate), which happened in Lucifer #25, her 2008 bio confirms that she does have a role to play in his cosmos:
http://i.imgur.com/JbkdIPk.jpg?1
Yet we know that she has no claim over Lucifer, even in his weakened state:
http://i.imgur.com/epJdnVW.jpg
That right there, suggests that Lucifer is beyond a trans-multiversal being (Death). this has already been mentioned by other posters, posting the scans for the onlookers to decide how miserably CK compares to Lucifer.
Death is the most powerful of the endless. We know that Destiny also operates across universeS (history of DCU):
http://i.imgur.com/rXDy5Gu.jpg?1
Btw, i also missed a showing for Dream (i posted this before) In Morrison's JLA, Doctor Destiny after projecting his dream self to the material world, achieves absolute omnipotence:
http://i.imgur.com/NpmtOIh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ErXsqKb.jpgIn the end it literally took 7 JLA members to project their dream selves, to make it 7 omnipotents (the exact terminology was actually mentioned) to defeat him.
👆 And nobody should be arguing otherwise. That's blatantly ignoring on panel evidence.
Heck, even Tim Hunter created a multiverse composed of thousands of alternate universes [B]without even knowing it
, in the events of Books of Magic v2:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
books of magic #58/60:http://i.imgur.com/cpIaSXf.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/8NA6oQY.jpg?1as the 1st scan shows, tim creates alternate worlds/universes, by splitting off his emotions, creating an alternate tim which represents this emotion, and an entire universe in the process.......second scan shows that there are thousand of worlds that he spawned.
Im assuming you'll want confirmation that these are universes and not merely worlds/planets, because it was never directly stated that tim created a thousand universes, it was always referred to as worlds.
name of magic: confirms that tim saved not just one dimension (the main one) but many others (which were his creations):
http://i.imgur.com/gN3UCTw.jpg?1
proving that what tim created, is dimensions, which are = universes.
books of magic annual #3: On panel, an alternate tim, destroys an entire reality (proving that those alternate worlds, are in fact whole realities):
http://i.imgur.com/dcY7KVP.jpg?1
the impressive part about this is also that each of those alternate tims have a portion of the real tim's magic, and the real tim never even noticed that his power diminished. So it's reasonable to say that tim created those universes with a small fraction of his power.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(btw, Death has claim over Timothy, but not over Lucifer)
We all know how all Vertigo characters compare to Lucifer, don't we?
We know for a fact that Lucifer is the most powerful being in all creation (along with Michael), as stated in Sandman #22, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/Mh652WG.jpg?1
Carey seems sure that Lucifer is, he said so in a Letters page from Lucifer #29:
http://i.imgur.com/w6toR4M.jpg?1
Somehow though, the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (which is filled with multiversal and multiversal+ beings), is universal. Makes perfect sense.......👆 [/B]
Tim was uber as hell. 👆
Originally posted by ODG
Reported for being on-topic. sneerThe heroes had to do quite a bit to accomplish their BFR of Chaos King. Galactus working with Cho to bridge the infinite gulf that made the Continuum the perfect place to trick the Chaos King into settling in, the assembled heroes and Supergod Hercules falling like flies to distract Chaos King from the trap being sprung, etc.
Even if we fairly and rightly assume Lucifer's crafty enough to trick him on his own, I'm not sure we can just assume in this neutral setting that Lucifer will have his Gate(s) or that Galactus and Cho will be setting up a convenient portal to somewhere far across the gulf of universal/multiversal expansion. The overtly limp-d1ckery is a nice touch. kinda
We settled this quite a while ago.
1. In a neutral setting, there's no need for Lucifer to use the gate(s). Such a concept doesn't exist in any other media, so we can logically assume that a neutral battleground would follow the most common standards.
2. Even if Lucifer did need or want to use the gate, it is and ought to be standard "gear" for him.
3. Lucifer is vastly more capable than Galactus and Cho, so let's not pretend like something they did would be beyond him. This is a guy who casually passed beyond the Source wall and back, between his creation, Yahweh's, Elaine's, Heaven, Hell, etc.
Originally posted by Golgo13He also had basically nothing to do with the Lucifer series. Just like Living Tribunal had basically nothing to do with Chaos War, despite actualy being name-dropped (which is more than can be said for Tim Hunter) in Lucifer.
Tim was uber as hell. 👆
That is... he's inconsequential to Lucifer's journey... until you're pitting Lucifer against a Marvel character with a nearly-as-laughable claim to multiversality as Lucifer does in a theoretical fight thread.
Well then, at that point Tim Hunter means everything to Lucifer. More important than Mazikeen and Duma really. This being presented to me as the "right and proper" way to discuss, much less read, comics.
Same bullsh1t argument that I shouldn't ignore some phucking obscure issue of Excalibur or Adventures of X-Men when reading what White Phoenix of the Crown did in New X-Men #154 because that's apparently the only way someone could truly appreciate the monumental scope of that feat. Ignoring some random obscure character's conversations/adventures several times removed by years of publication history somehow renders me unreasonable.
I can't just read the comic where it says Lucifer created a universe, and spent nearly all his eons there molding one Earth and experimenting with one Adam/Eve couple. I have to remember Tim Hunter and project an infinite magnitude's scope higher of reality to it, ad imagine that off-panel, Lucifer's doing this simultaneously across infinite alternate universes, and only then, can I be considered a fan of Lucifer.
Awful. Just awful.
Originally posted by ODG
That is... unless you're pitting Lucifer against a Marvel character with a nearly-as-laughable claim to multiversality as Lucifer does.
Dear. Phucking. God.
If an undeniable source in the most recent canon source says it to be so, then it is.
Lucifer said his own creation was a multiverse in the most recent canon source. PHUCKING END OF STORY.
It doesn't even matter if every piece of evidence up to that point confirmed it was a universe (which is also blatantly not true), as soon as he said it in a canon source it became the truth.
Originally posted by ODG
^ If someone were to miss a few random issues of Lucifer and not have read several obscure issues involving Death/Dream outside of Lucifer's series, they'd completely miss out on how multiversal Lucifer actually was. That's really the consequence of your's and operator616's argument.
Few random issues of Lucifer? What, you want Lucifer displaying multiversal feats across every 5 issues or so?
The story-line involving Basanos' attack on Lucifer's cosmos (where Death, a trans-multiversal being, admitted her inferiority to Lucifer), is pretty important to read.
Lucifer has displayed multiversal feats and has been clearly, without a doubt, been portrayed to be above even multiversal beings. That should be enough to prove that he's multiversal and more. Period.
Not my problem that you can't accept it.
Originally posted by ODG
That's the exact god damned issue. What do you mean you're going to put it aside? In heaven's name, what kind of logic dictates that running away from the direct feat at issue, constitutes a reasonable means of discussing it?
I mean that im willing to put Lucifer's feat of creating a separate multiverse/universe aside, because it doesn't meet your specific standards (since his creation has never depicted alternate realities like Yahweh's). Which is why instead, im going to have you admit that it's ultimately irrelevant since he created Yahweh's creation which is a confirmed multiverse. So even if you do not acknowledge that the creation Lucifer created in issue #13 is not a multiverse, you can't deny that he did create a whole multiverse before that -- Yahweh's multiverse.
Originally posted by ODG
Not beyond all doubt at all. Same doubt that clouds Chaos King's multiversality. Eternity's multiversality -- in fact, I was pretty sure you discussed Dormmamu/Umar's assault on the supposedly multiversal Eternity in Defenders already. Maybe it was someone else.
Except that it is beyond all doubt. We saw alternate realities, and we saw alternate version of a character (Cal), what do you want more than that? Seriously, what is it so hard to accept?
I thought i made it pretty clear (but you "dismissed" that part of my post as completely irrelevant): The Eternity Dormamu/Umar murdered in Defenders v3, was multi-Eternity, imo. Which is the totality of all eternities across the multiverse.
Originally posted by ODG
No. No, he didn't. And if he did mean to use them interchangeably, then he meant multiverse as a universe.
Yes he did. That's evident by the fact that he actually portrayed alternate realities on panel, yet, despite all that, he referred to it as "the universe".
But anyway, im not going to reply beyond this point; it's pointless. You aren't even acknowledging the most basic facts.
