Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Cogito
We settled this quite a while ago.

1. In a neutral setting, there's no need for Lucifer to use the gate(s). Such a concept doesn't exist in any other media, so we can logically assume that a neutral battleground would follow the most common standards.

2. Even if Lucifer did need or want to use the gate, it is and ought to be standard "gear" for him.

Originally posted by operator616
you can't deny that he did create a whole multiverse before that -- Yahweh's multiverse.

H
I
S

B
R
O
T
H
E
R

who provided the POWER for Lucifer to mold into his creation.

His BROTHER IS ABSENT FROM THIS THREAD.

Originally posted by Cogito
Dear. Phucking. God.

If an undeniable source in the most recent canon source says it to be so, then it is.

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer said his own creation was a multiverse in the most recent canon source. PHUCKING END OF STORY.

Originally posted by Cogito
It doesn't even matter if every piece of evidence up to that point confirmed it was a universe (which is also blatantly not true), as soon as he said it in a canon source it became the truth.

LM didn't create anything

Originally posted by operator616
Few random issues of Lucifer? What, you want Lucifer displaying multiversal feats across every 5 issues or so?

The Lucifer multiverse is hiding off-panel apparently. This is intelligent reading of comics, ladies and gentlemen.

Originally posted by operator616
The story-line involving Basanos' attack on Lucifer's cosmos (where Death, a trans-multiversal being, admitted her inferiority to Lucifer), is pretty important to read.

That's a trick question. We all know they attack the one Earth that exists in all of Lucifer's creation. Necessarily, not multiversal.

Originally posted by operator616
Lucifer has displayed multiversal feats and has been clearly

Originally posted by Jynocidus
LM didn't create anything

^ Assumption? Don't pretend that im "assuming", because my opnion is solely based on what was shown on panel.

We saw Yahweh's creation contain countless alternate realities. Alternate version of a character appeared.

Lucifer and Michael created that. Period.

You're the one who's ignoring evidence.

Originally posted by ODG
He also had basically nothing to do with the Lucifer series.

Not sure i follow, they're part of the same universe.

Here's Books of Magic v1 #1 directly referencing and depicting Lucifer's fall from Heaven on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/OohC3gL.jpg

Here's Books of Magic v2 #36, directly referencing Lucifer:

http://i.imgur.com/XPyWjEj.jpg?1

And i could give more.

👆

Originally posted by zopzop
He AND his brother. AND HIS BROTHER.

The point is that his powers function on a multiversal scale. Michael merely released the energy which Lucifer casually manipulated to shape creation/multiverse.

Originally posted by ODG
^ If someone were to miss a few random issues of Lucifer and not have read several obscure issues involving Death/Dream outside of Lucifer's series, they'd completely miss out on how multiversal Lucifer actually was. That's really the consequence of your's and operator616's argument. Lucifer's feat on its own two legs depicted across entire consecutive issues, cannot stand on its own two feet as multiversal without pulling from random storylines removed twiceover from the actual feat, sometimes separated several times over.

You don't see a problem with that? It's a stupid argument. That's not how stories are told. That's not how Lucifer was meant to be read.

but....if someone were to read a single arc of thor, they might think that all he is capable of doing is hitting people in the face with a hammer. 😬

it's utterly necessary to look at the surrounding context/series to develop a fuller understanding of the character. there is no way on yaweh's green earth i need to explain that to you. we're not delving far for some of these references, (especially given vertigo verses rather insular nature at the time, no where near as prone to change as the greater dc verse). and many were mentioned right in the series itself. the vertigo-verse WAS a multiverse. that arc i posted scans from stretched across something like 12 issues of sandman. that's like, 1/6 of the entire series (just counting that arc....) that dealt with and developed the nature of the vertigoverse and the nature and power of the endless.

these concepts developed for characters like lucifer and sandman over time. that's one of the drawbacks of arguing FOR someone like ck. he did NOT have a chance to eliminate his occluding ambiguity. had the arc run 5 years, maybe he WOULD have been shown devouring earth 6541. but he didn't. he didn't last long, then was further hobbled by being named nothing more than an ASPECT of a different entity whose relative power level is quite well known. but it's not the fault of the characters that we can only argue based on what we see. we have a far better, and imo, more secure understanding of not ONLY lucifer, but the 'universe' in which he lives. ck? not NEARLY so secure. hence my reasons for believing in the ambiguous nature of his feats.

you continue to urge people to read the stories, but you seem to be losing the forest for the trees. the whole lucifer series was a story about a being attempting to escape his destiny. to do so, he created a whole other creation whereby he could achieve that goal. great pains were gone to to draw explicit comparisons between lucifer's creation and yaweh's. we've even seen on panel IN LUCIFER that his creation is made of many different worlds and universes.

the stumbling block is--all of that is simply not up to your 'standards'. you've done a good job avoiding painting yourself into a corner in anyway by leaving the "IMO" caveat writ clear across the discussion. at one point though, it seemed (like me) that all you needed to name something truly multiversal was alternate worlds. now that you've seen alternate earths mentioned in BOTH creations, it seems you want an illustration of endless earths. or MORE mention. a little shifting of the goalpost? i know you'll be pi$$ed at the insinuation, but that is what it SEEMS to be. imo.

taking a look at the whole context of the series, it seems the picture is pretty clear. it's not our fault that we don't have those types of resources to draw upon for ck. you seem to have been shown everything you've asked to see. could it perhaps be that your standards should be shifted in this instance?

Originally posted by leonidas
but....if someone were to read a single arc of thor, they might think that all he is capable of doing is hitting people in the face with a hammer. 😬

it's utterly necessary to look at the surrounding context/series to develop a fuller understanding of the character.

Bullsh1t, leonidas. You know this as much as I do. And I don't need to read Tim Hunter's adventures to read and appreciate what Lucifer accomplished in Lucifer #13. Complete bullsh1t. Read he actual comics. The vast majority of the issues involving this character and his creation. But if the term "universe" being endlessly used to the bitter end and the complete utter lack of any multiversal aspect to be found within Lucifer's creation isn't god-smacked obvious for you, then you've made up your mind to disregard the actual comic.

And that is not a constructive way of reading comics. It's a tragicomical bastardization.

Originally posted by ODG
Actually, three more years of Lucifer's ongoing series establishing the universality of Lucifer's creation is the most recent canon source. I'll forgive this as just an innocent gaffe on your part.

Ah, that is my mistake. I thought, for some reason, that Nirvana was published after the series ended.

Regardless, nothing else definitively contradicts the notion of a multiverse, despite how many times you want find mention of the word "universe". There's plenty of evidence, as has been rehashed here many times, to deny that.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Assumption? Don't pretend that im "assuming", because my opnion is solely based on what was shown on panel.

You're the one who's ignoring evidence.

I'd rather ignore your assumptions than ignore dozens of issues of Lucifer that actually deal with Lucifer's creation.

Originally posted by operator616
Not sure i follow, they're part of the same universe.

Here's Books of Magic v1 #1 directly referencing and depicting Lucifer's fall from Heaven on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/OohC3gL.jpg

Here's Books of Magic v2 #36, directly referencing Lucifer:

http://i.imgur.com/XPyWjEj.jpg?1

And i could give more.

That's your own dissatisfaction being projected. And it has no merit here.

Originally posted by operator616
The point is that his powers function on a multiversal scale. Michael merely released the energy which Lucifer casually manipulated to shape creation/multiverse.

Originally posted by Cogito
Ah, that is my mistake. I thought, for some reason, that Nirvana was published after the series ended.

Originally posted by Cogito
Regardless, nothing else definitively contradicts the notion of a multiverse, despite how many times you want find mention of the word "universe". There's plenty of evidence, as has been rehashed here many times, to deny that.

You're right, we should have gotten an issue for every universe Lucifer created in the multiverse. That would make excellent reading, rehashing the same exact panels over and over.

How do you deny the mirrors containing alternate universes? Or an alternate Cal?

^ That's what he's trying to avoid, you see. It has not gone unnoticed.

Originally posted by ODG
An opinion established in complete ignorance of the actual feat at issue that clearly illustrate it as not involving infinite alternate universes/Earths.

I'd rather ignore your assumptions than ignore dozens of issues of Lucifer that actually deal with Lucifer's creation.

Are you trying NOT to understand what im saying?

I clearly said that in-reference to Lucifer and Michael creating Yahweh's multiverse, and not the one in issue #13. Don't pretend you're not understanding me.

In case you aren't aware after all those posts: Lucifer and Michael created Yahweh's creation. Which is a confirmed multiverse.

further proof that Yahweh's creation is a multiverse. Sandman #23, references dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1

Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:

http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1

Along with Carey's series portraying those alternate dimensions/universes:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg

.....yup, definitely not a multiverse. That's apparently an assumption.

Really, who's the one ignoring evidence, here?

Not only are you ignoring evidence, but you're betraying your own standards. You said that no mater how many times a term like "multiverse" gets thrown around, it'd be irrelevant as long as alternate realities weren't depicted. So now that we have seen alternate realities/characters, what's the problem of accepting it?

Originally posted by ODG
Because you aren't just going ahead and reaching for obscure storylines that have nothing to do with Lucifer's creation within the pages of Lucifer?

Tim's multiversal feats came after the Lucifer series started. And the particular arc which referenced him was about the same time when the series started.

Originally posted by ODG

That's your own dissatisfaction being projected. And it has no merit here. When is an universe not a universe? When it's Lucifer being discussed in a Chaos King thread. Or Phoenix vs Anti-Monitor. Or IG vs. Abrxas. Etc., etc. Because, y'know, now you're not just completely running away from the actual feat, i.e., Lucifer's creation, and all the scenes/storylines that directly involve the feat, e.g., the campaigns/wars over Lucifer's creation like the Basanos' assault.

Im not running away from the feat, that's just you trying to avoid my point.

I already repeated it about a dozen times now but you intend to bury it under the walls of text, it seems.

Im not using the Lucifer #13 feat because it doesn't meet your standards, but Lucifer creating Yahweh's original creation (which is a confirmed multiverse, going by your own standards), does meet your standards. You're trying very hard to make it seem like im running away from the Lucifer #13 feat whilst trying to avoid acknowledging Lucifer creating Yahweh's multiverse feat.

Don't think i don't know what you're doing here, but oh well, you'll just keep on with the same point until you get the last word...

Originally posted by ODG
I do not need to read a random issue of Adventures of X-Men to properly interpret New X-Men #154. I do not need to read a random issue of Defenders to appreciate Infinity Gauntlet published years prior.

Bullsh1t, leonidas. You know this as much as I do. And I don't need to read Tim Hunter's adventures to read and appreciate what Lucifer accomplished in Lucifer #13. Complete bullsh1t. Read he actual comics. The vast majority of the issues involving this character and his creation. But if the term "universe" being endlessly used to the bitter end and the complete utter lack of any multiversal aspect to be found within Lucifer's creation isn't god-smacked obvious for you, then you've made up your mind to disregard the actual comic.

And that is not a constructive way of reading comics. It's a tragicomical bastardization.

well, i think you're reaching a bit with your analogy at the start. i'm not talking about reading random issues, though if you read only a single issue in ANY arc i daresay you'll agree--you'll be losing some meaning. 😬 there HAS to be a surrounding, larger, context. the larger the surrounding context, the greater our understanding of the character. that's something that can't possibly be debated.

that LACK of greater context is what ck lacks. lack of understanding leads to insecurity and ambiguity imo. i think you might agree with that. not sure why you seem to think though, that development can't occur across several issues, or even series', and that said development can't be used as proof of nature or scope of character. and to be clear, it's the NATURE of the character i'm currently discussing, not any singular feat, because i think lucifer's nature is utterly pertinent to the comparison of the 2. it seems like you want ALL the answers immediately for some reason i can't quite grasp. but, do we IGNORE the rest of the outside, greater context?

i've actually had this EXACT debate with masters. one of the issues i have with him is that he pulls info from all across unrelated series' and from times that are sometimes decades apart. but some of the dots he connects are SO far apart imo, that connecting them at all appears forced. if we need to go to THAT extreme, you're absolutely correct in your stance. 👆 but that is NOT what is going on here, least not imo. vertigo is much more tightly-knit. it's virtually impossible to stray very far. looking at SOME of the other vertigo-verse is also the only way to gain understanding about the vertigo verse itself, which is also pertinent to the discussion. if all i read was thor for a couple years, i might come away thinking that odin is the most powerful being in creation. is it all right to believe that, to preach it without having read any other books? and is someone wrong for presenting info from other books to ascertain said proof to dispel the wrong assumption?

you seem to want every issue to say lucifer is multiversal. you know as well as i do the fluidity of language in comics, EVEN vertigo. looking at the whole series and the vertigo verse itself and where he sits in it, the conclusion about his nature seems to be about as clear as it can get. that nature should speak to his feats, and in turn to this battle. imo.

anyway, i know you have your thanos-level force field up that you call your standards, but, in this case, i think you might be asking for too much for the sake of maintaining those standards. at risk of seeming like i'm piling on, i'll leave you to work things out, or not, with the others. anyway, here's to hoping the flamewar can at least be declared over.....

Originally posted by Cogito
You're right, we should have gotten an issue for every universe Lucifer created in the multiverse. That would make excellent reading, rehashing the same exact panels over and over.

Where's the rest of the multiverse? Hiding off-panel? Does Lucifer have endless manifestations of himself across these alternate Earths spending time d1cking around with slightly different Adam/Eve pairings What If?-style?

Originally posted by Cogito
How do you deny the mirrors containing alternate universes? Or an alternate Cal?

Originally posted by leonidas
well, i think you're reaching a bit with your analogy at the start. i'm not talking about reading random issues, though if you read only a single issue in ANY arc i daresay you'll agree--you'll be losing some meaning. 😬 there HAS to be a surrounding, larger, context. the larger the surrounding context, the greater our understanding of the character. that's something that can't possibly be debated.

You act like I'm not posting scans from across the 70+ issues of Lucifer's main series. You act like it's unreasonable for me to have this expectation that when a character molds a whole flippin' multiverse on-panel, the actual scene might just try to make even the slimmest of efforts in depicting a true multiverse of endless alternate universes? Maybe call it a multiverse? Maybe show more than one universe? More than one Earth? Not d1ck around in one single Paradise garden for an issue? Lucifer's actual feat shows a single universe, states it's a single universe, hides the countless alternate universes off-panel, then decides to drop the revelatory bomb in some rote coffee conversation in a side-issue to make you fully appreciate the scope of power he operated on.

This, you think, is honoring context?

The worst part of it is, you actually expect me to believe it is reasonable to reverse-project entirely different characters that have nothing to do with Lucifer, much less be name-dropped in the pages of Lucifer and expect me to account for them?

This isn't context. This is myth-crafting garbage. Sure. Eternity was once called a multiverse with endless dimensions (some argued fully-functioning universes) inside him when he got wrecked by Dormammu/Umar in that one storyline nobody gives a sh1t about. Even though Dormammu/Umar didn't do sh1t with such multiversal power but warp 616 universe in that obscure Defenders storyline. But that doesn't mean that when Eternity popped up in Chaos War years later, that automatically elevated the storyline to multiversal levels. Because we know about the other context, the truer context: we've been gobsmacked by the universality of Chaos War throughout its actual pages more than enough times to know it's claim to multiversality is flimsy at best because we never once phucking see Chaos King devour alternate universes or Supergod Hercules restoring alternate universes.

You're telling me that I have to just ignore those standards when reading Lucifer, just because? We never see these supposed alternate universes/Earths in Lucifer's creation, not once. After being created in issue #13, 60+ issues more dealing with Lucifer's creation and the multiversality of it is still off-panel?

Originally posted by leonidas
i've actually had this EXACT debate with masters. one of the issues i have with him is that he pulls info from all across unrelated series' and from times that are sometimes decades apart. but some of the dots he connects are SO far apart imo, that connecting them at all appears forced.

Storylines directly dealing with Lucifer's creation make no sense if you try to make it out to be multiversal. Did Lucifer splinter his gates across countless alternate Earths in Yahweh's creation off-panel? Did Lucifer spread his gate entranceways across countless alternate Earths within his own multiverse off-panel? When he addresses the newly migrating denizens to his creation, is he appearing simultaneously across alternate Earth skies across his multiverse? Did the Basanos attack him and his creation across his multiverse? Or was their assault on his multiverse and his burnout conveniently confined to a single Earth? So that maybe the rest of Lucifer's multiverse was no worse for wear? All off-panel?

Bullsh1t, man. You know it's bullsh1t.

Originally posted by operator616
Are you trying NOT to understand what im saying?

I clearly said that in-reference to Lucifer and Michael creating Yahweh's multiverse, and not the one in issue #13. Don't pretend you're not understanding me.

The real problem is, you haven't pointed to a single scene actually involving Lucifer's creation supposedly depicting the endless alternate mirror parts he's created from it. Apparently all this, we should take for granted, is off-panel. Luciverse-13475, Luciverse-9873 were apparently, not even attacked by the Basanos. Just Luciverse-1.

Originally posted by operator616
In case you aren't aware after all those posts: Lucifer and Michael created Yahweh's creation. Which is a confirmed multiverse.

further proof that Yahweh's creation is a multiverse. Sandman #23, references dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1

Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:

http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1

Originally posted by operator616
Along with Carey's series portraying those alternate dimensions/universes:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg

.....yup, definitely not a multiverse. That's apparently an assumption.

Originally posted by operator616
Really, who's the one ignoring evidence, here?

Originally posted by operator616
Not only are you ignoring evidence, but you're betraying your own standards. You said that no mater how many times a term like "multiverse" gets thrown around, it'd be irrelevant as long as alternate realities weren't depicted. So now that we have seen alternate realities/characters, what's the problem of accepting it?

Being purposefully this stupid is a god damned insult.

i don't think LM can talk CK out of absorbing him, could have sworn good and evil mean nothing to him

Originally posted by ODG
What a laughable attempt to label the actual scenes of Lucifer's creation feat and all the scenes that occur inside his creation, involving his creation, describing his creation as "random" or "spamming." When did you find the actual issues of Lucifer to be irrelevant? And I don't know why poaching from a respect thread would be in anyway objectionable. Doesn't matter, as they're not from respect threads anyway. Ask me to post a random page from a random issue from the Lucifer series that hasn't yet been posted here if you'd like. I mean, I don't mind overturning all your trite preconceptions on their a$$ at every turn. No like my deconstruction of your trollery can't be complete and utter.

Originally posted by ODG

There's no nugget of truth hidden beneath your clumsy strawman. Most of the Lucifer series occurred on a single Earth (God's original), or Lucifer's or Elaine's. That statement of mine remains true. It did not occur across endless alternate reality Earths characteristic of a multiversal tale. And this indisputable fact only belies the supposed true multiversality of each of their creations (especially Lucifer's). Hickman's stories about Incursions clearly are set across the endless alternate universes/earths of the Marvel Mutiverse. Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths involed countless alternate Earths. The same can't be said for Carey's Lucifer, or Pak'sChaos War.

Except when we actually see Yahweh's creation consisting of Mirrors that contain alternate versions of the prime universe. These alternates, per Bergelmir, are failed versions of the current universe. The very same Creation which Lucifer and Michael originally forged as well in a similar manner as to how Lucifer's creation was forged. The very same Creation to which Lucifer's own Creation is essentially identical in shape, manner and form sans an afterlife. Again, this is as simple as adding 2 and 2 together but for some reason you want to make it more complicated than it really is.

Originally posted by ODG

your own hypocrisy, bias, butthurt and pointless resentment. Lucifer as a fictional character in literature is not lessened by limiting him to his actions in his story. The needless over-inflation and reverse-projection here isn't any different than tat involving the old debates over the Infinity Gauntlet and the White Phoenix of the Crown. It might be "cool" from an adolescent perspective to interpret the scope of these characters to be infinite magntiudes above what they were actually portrayed as to the common reader. But if you have to accomplish this with wordplay, out-of-context conversations snippets, and a blind eye to the indisputable mountain of evidence to the contrary, you're doing it wrong.

Originally posted by ODG

Anyway, the bashing, the lying, the argument that scans from the series are random spamming, completely hiding from entire posts altogether... you've done a terrible job salvaging any of your arguments. Then again, when you decided to challenge the application of my standard, you probably shouldn't have approached it in such a two-faced hypocritical manner. It's your fault really.

Originally posted by ODG

Pretty sure neither of them were ever so absent-minded to accuse anyone of "random spamming" when someone was posting scans from the actual comic issues in question:

Originally posted by ODG

Epicurus: "Herpity derpity derp!!!! Not relevant to whether Lucifer made a universe or multiverse!!!! Random spamming of scans is not relevant to present issue, herp derp!!!!11"

What a bumbling oaf, you are.

When the going gets tough, the Dumb gets Dumber. 👆

Btw, in case you didn't get the memo before, Lucifer still stomps a mudhole all over Mikaboshi and handily wins this thread.🙂

"Repaired the universe."

http://i.imgur.com/lM5qG3z.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lM5qG3z.jpg

"This world".

Herc himself said he restored the universe, not multiverse.

mmm