Cosmic Cube Thanos vs Chaos King

Originally posted by "Id"

Let go of the Cube logic. Its not worth getting into. Look at it this way.

If not for Kubiks statement of inferiority to the Celestials. No one
would have thought they where inferior in the first place. You than
factor in, that writers have not respected that statement for years,
which is provoking a building gap inconsistency within the versus
forums. And finally, that statement was one time, 20 years ago.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The statement was made June 1993, after major cube storylines
such as Infinity War and at the same time as Infinity Crusade.

So i cant see how you'd come to the conclusion that it has been ignored.

If anything the fact that in Infinity Crusade multiple cubes were
required to bring about universal domination is telling, given this
cube retcon.

The Goddess was going to conquer All RealitieS with the 30 Cubes:

==================

So there was a little debate over Kubik's statements
concerning Celestials being above Cube beings.
Does this verbal claim still hold weight, are Cube beings still below Celestials?

Kubik made that claim back in 1993.

==================

The last Beyonder retcon took place within a canon story revisiting Secret Wars.

The Beyonder is once again the same ol' Beyonder that came from the Beyond Realm.

And, since the latest Handbooks haven't changed that, even mentioned it,
we still have this published 3 years after Illuminati
so ... his CCU status, still remains.

(OHotMU 2008 Lord Chaos/Master Order bio)

---------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the story centers around Spiderman. (2010, 4 issue mini)

Dr Doom, right before he absorbed most of the Beyonder's power,
he allowed it to be absorbed by Wolverine and Spiderman, (who he brought along for the ride)
for one billionth of a second,
in order to test the power,
and to see how the lives of others would play out with the power,
before he (Doom) took it for himself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so here it is, Doom first gives the power to Wolverine:

---------------------------------------------------------

We don't get to see what Wolvy experiences, but then Spiderman gets the power:

and well ... enjoy!

"In that moment I gained the powers ...

I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...

In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."

---------------------------------------------------------

It's not just talk either, we see what Spiderman is talking about,

... he remade All Creation:

He also knocks mighty Galactus out with a single punch,
on top of rewinding all time effortlessly:

---------------------------------------------------------

This scan below follows up from the ones above.

Yes, it's still Spiderman curious about how he got the power
so he's actually looking into Future
watching Dr Doom explain what I told yall about using Wolvy & Spidey as test subjects.

Doom also tells us:

"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"

"This is a power beyond anyone's control"

==================

Well then,
not only were Molecule Man and Beyonder able to warp reality on a Trans-Multiversal scale.

But most of Beyonder's power on its own was able to REMAKE ALL CREATION!

Now go ahead and tell me Celestials are above this.

Wait, in the engagement of this debate I've lost myself.

My goodness ..
that shit's incredible what Spiderman and Doom did/were with most of a Cube being's power.

Len Kaminski is the writer for both stories:

"Riddle of the Celestials" ... and ... "Molecular Psychology"

"M P" ... was published one year AFTER ... "RotC" ...

------------------------------------------------------------------

So Kubik stated Celestials were above Cube Beings in 1993.

Now the same Writer that had Kubik state that,
has Cube beings doing this:

Post-Beyonder and Molecule Man warping Reality withIN Realities across the Omniverse!

And killing a Cube being would wreck the Multiverse!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Len Kaminski came up with the intricate explanation in the Kubik scenario defining the Celestials
involving levels of infinity based on Cantor's theorem.

Yet, he clearly thought differently one year later as to where Cube beings stand in the "infinity" department.

Warranting the attention of the LT,
having the LT state, restrained "Owen Reece is one of the most powerful beings in all creation,"
and most importantly making New updated statements via a character infinities above Kubik,
and furthermore putting them (Owen/Beyonder) to demonstrate a Trans-Multiversal feat,
and even more, letting us know to kill a Cube being means to F up the Multiverse.

Just sayin.

=======================================

In 2002 the Cube performs on a ridiculous level and is considered to be GOD itself!

=======================================

Here a Single CCU is used to give all the heroes & villains of reality 9777 their own Universe!

(616 characters were involved in this story)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an incredible On Panel read about that CCU above ^^^ being GOD!

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776832_CCU_X9.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776833_CCU_X10.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776834_CCU_X11.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776835_CCU_X12.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776836_CCU_X13.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776837_CCU_X14.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776838_CCU_X15.jpg]

"How can this be GOD?"

"How can I possibly hold GOD in My hand?" ... 😂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Still NOTHING!

Let's see a Celestial performing a Universal feat.

Let's see a Celestial creating and/or destroying even a single universe.

Let's see a Celestial defeating someone who's even just universal.
(oops, universal Franky is killing Celestials)

Let's see a Celestial's mean something to even just the Universe.

hm

Aside from Scathan ... there is no Celestial that has done anything of cosmic significance.

While Cube beings and Containment Units have perfomred on a Universal level,
Multiversal level,
TRANS-Multiversal level,
and Omniversal level.

Next.

Your point is irrelevant when Odin performs universal and multiversal scale feats, whilst still being shown and stated to be below Galactus in the same series. And recent continuity shows Galactus is on par with the average Celestial and likely inferior to the most powerful. 🙂

Is Odin more powerful than the Celestials and Abstracts because of his on panel feat in light of this? ❌

If you can wield universal energies it does not put you on abstract level.

Many can and have the power to destroy a universe, but as the cube stated its all about levels of infinity.

They are less infinite than the Celestials or the Abstrcats so those feats they can pull off would be a lot easier to pull off by those higher in the hierarchy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
=======================================

In [b]2002 the Cube performs on a ridiculous level and is considered to be GOD itself!

=======================================

Here a Single CCU is used to give all the heroes & villains of reality 9777 their own Universe!

(616 characters were involved in this story)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an incredible On Panel read about that CCU above ^^^ being GOD!

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776832_CCU_X9.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776833_CCU_X10.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776834_CCU_X11.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776835_CCU_X12.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776836_CCU_X13.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776837_CCU_X14.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14776838_CCU_X15.jpg]

"How can this be GOD?"

"How can I possibly hold GOD in My hand?" ... 😂 [/B]

Out of continuity im afraid. A wasted post.

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆

"Universal domination?"

The Goddess was going to conquer All RealitieS with the 30 Cubes:

The goddess' INTENTION was to eventually do so.

NOT simultaneously. One by one going by the effort to take over 616 with all of those cubes and yet still failing to do so.

INTENTION means nothing. She was thwarted

Originally posted by Mr Master
Len Kaminski is the writer for both stories:

"Riddle of the Celestials" ... and ... "Molecular Psychology"

"M P" ... was published one year AFTER ... "RotC" ...

------------------------------------------------------------------

So Kubik stated Celestials were above Cube Beings in 1993.

Now the same Writer that had Kubik state that,
has Cube beings doing this:

Post-Beyonder and Molecule Man warping Reality withIN Realities across the Omniverse!

And killing a Cube being would wreck the Multiverse!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Len Kaminski came up with the intricate explanation in the Kubik scenario defining the Celestials
involving levels of infinity based on Cantor's theorem.

Yet, he clearly thought differently one year later as to where Cube beings stand in the "infinity" department.

Warranting the attention of the LT,
having the LT state, restrained "Owen Reece is one of the most powerful beings in all creation,"
and most importantly making New updated statements via a character infinities above Kubik,
and furthermore putting them (Owen/Beyonder) to demonstrate a Trans-Multiversal feat,
and even more, letting us know to kill a Cube being means to F up the Multiverse.

Just sayin.

And yet Odin and Seths battle (2 skyfathers) was causing havoc across the universe and just these two skyfathers were creating effects that were felt across the multiverse.

Cube beings are higher up than skyfathers so their battle wasnt just shaking the multiverse it was having limited warping effects randomly across it.

AGAIN. Levels of infinity.

As you go up the tier the same feats become easier and greater in scale.

Odin a skyfather who is below Galactus wielded enough power to destroy the multiverse, the potency of the power was confirmed on panel and he channeled it, no boasts he channeled it.

Odin is below the Cubes and below Galactus 🙂

Your logic would dictate hes greater than Eternity 😬

facepalm

I know everyone sees you for what you are.

Odin .. LOL!

Anyway .. you're right.

You're a waste of my time.

Hopefully the onlookers will look at the evidence notice the circus here.

I mean dogs, you were bad, but this is a new low. 👇

Originally posted by Mr Master

==================

Spiderman gets the power:

and well ... enjoy!

"In that moment I gained the powers ...

I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...

In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."

---------------------------------------------------------

It's not just talk either, we see what Spiderman is talking about,

... he remade All Creation:

He also knocks mighty Galactus out with a single punch,
on top of rewinding all time effortlessly:

---------------------------------------------------------

This scan below follows up from the ones above.

Yes, it's still Spiderman curious about how he got the power
so he's actually looking into Future
watching Dr Doom explain what I told yall about using Wolvy & Spidey as test subjects.

Doom also tells us:

"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"

"This is a power beyond anyone's control"

==================

Well then,
not only were Molecule Man and Beyonder able to warp reality on a Trans-Multiversal scale.

But most of Beyonder's power on its own was able to REMAKE ALL CREATION!

Now go ahead and tell me Celestials are above this.

Wait, in the engagement of this debate I've lost myself.

My goodness ..
that shit's incredible what Spiderman and Doom did/were with most of a Cube being's power.

Here the point will be reiterated. I felt it was getting lost in your spam.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

"our power is AS [B]nothing to that of the Celestials"

"yes our might is infinite but there are levels of infinity"

Here the point is explained perfectly. There are infinite odd numbers, infinite even numbers both infinite in their own right, but both are just facets of an even more infinite quantity...whole numbers.

"a transfinite level of power many orders of magnitude beyond our own"

the power of a cube being is not enough to save it from a single Celestial, if judgement was against the two cube beings, he could have destroyed them both :

Odin can manipulate energies which can destroy a universe:

Odin is slightly weaker than a hungry Galactus and no match for an energised one:

Levels of infinity

Manipulating universal scale energies/matter does not automatically make a being above Eternity as ive just shown. Especially not when said beings state themselves they are many times inferior in power than even a Celestial.

Silver Surfer can destroy a planet and manipulate planetary scale matter. Can he do so as easily as Galactus? No.

Because Silver Surfer can do those things does that make him greater than Ego the living planet? HELL NO

Different levels of infinity [/B]

All youre doing is proving my point and the cube beings points about differing levels of infinity.

Simply being able to destroy a universe or manipulate universal scale matter does not place you on or above Eternitys level.

Odin can and has manipulated energies yet he is below Galactus.

Odin and Seth fought and the battle had universal and multiversal consequences.

But guess what?

Cos the cube beings are a tier above skyfathers, when they thought, they didnt just shake up the multiverse, there were limited warping effects in random places throughout it as their energies radiated.

As you go up the tiers the same feats are easier to pull off and can be done on a greater scale.

I don't see what's wrong with either of your logic. n fact I can mix the 2, the only thing that you both disagree on is what a Cube beings level is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Still NOTHING!

Let's see a Celestial performing a Universal feat.

Let's see a Celestial creating and/or destroying even a single universe.

Let's see a Celestial defeating someone who's even just universal.
(oops, universal Franky is killing Celestials)

Let's see a Celestial's mean something to even just the Universe.

hm

Aside from Scathan ... there is no Celestial that has done anything of cosmic significance.

While Cube beings and Containment Units have perfomred on a Universal level,
Multiversal level,
TRANS-Multiversal level,
and Omniversal level.

Next.

Shhh......let's not upset guy. He probably read this post then puke

Don't worry guy Celestials can still:

Crush skyfather tag teams
Stomp Watchers (literally)
Save LT in a future timeline
Transform into Voltron (alternates)
Hurl a entire solar system of planets with a gesture...etc

It's only for the context of this debate.
They still bout that life. 😎
Carry on.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

I know everyone sees you fro what you are.

Odin .. 😆

Anyway .. you're right.

You're a waste of my time.

Hopefully the onlookers will look at the evidence notice the circus here.

I mean dogs, you were bad, but this is a new low. 👇

Youre talking as if people cant read these scans themselves. Your negative commentary isnt going to sway a soul.

Odin as stated on panel and as demonstrated on panel manipulated energies that could have destroyed the multiverse.

YOUR logic dictates that would make him Abstract level which is ridiculous.

YOUR ABC logic is if you can destroy a universe or wield universal scale energies then youre abstract or above which is rubbish.

Continuity shows that, Continuity has shown that in the last few months.

There are levels of infinity, Odin may be able to wield energies capable of such feats, but someone a tier above would be able to wield them to greater capacity and effect.

I dont have to see Order or Chaos two characters rarely used for battle, pulling off such feats to tell me theyre greater than Odin.

Just a lil common sense M Master. Your logic is appalling 😬

Originally posted by The Merchant
I don't see what's wrong with either of your logic. n fact I can mix the 2, the only thing that you both disagree on is what a Cube beings level is.

Despite the cube beings telling us theyre below Celestials, despite other characters confirming theyre minor omnipotents and less than the Great Powers, Mr Master needs to see the Celestials doing matching feats before he'll acknowledge whats officially stated to be the case 😬

The fact that Odin has performed better on panel feats than the Celestials or some Abstracts does not make me think he is above them.

Mr Masters logic dictates that it should 😬

What needs to be acknowledged is that the cosmic cubes as a weapon, plus combined with the cube beings themselves are more utilized and feature in more hero stories than the Celestials, so theyre going to have more feats.

I do not need to see Love and Hate, Order and Chaos having fisticuffs to tell me theyre greater than Odin. Odins a very utilized character, connected to characters like Thor who are regular staples so hes going to have more opportunities to show his prowess.

Common sense needs to be applied.

This thread is contaminated.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Still NOTHING!

Let's see a Celestial performing a Universal feat.

Let's see a Celestial creating and/or destroying even a single universe.

Let's see a Celestial defeating someone who's even just universal.
(oops, universal Franky is killing Celestials)

Let's see a Celestial's mean something to even just the Universe.

hm

Aside from Scathan ... there is no Celestial that has done anything of cosmic significance.

While Cube beings and Containment Units have perfomred on a Universal level,
Multiversal level,
TRANS-Multiversal level,
and Omniversal level.

Next.

You definitely need to remember that as tools, the power of the cubes can be used at hero/villain level and feature in many stories, the cube beings are more human like than Celestials and can also feature in many more storylines and are more easily utilized than some giant mute transformer types.

Given that characters such as Odin who are clearly below the cubes can wield universal/multiversal destructive energies and his battles effect the multiverse and he has better feats than the Celestials and many Abstracts why do you not place him at Abstract level?

Thats what your logic dictates.

Is it not more sensible to accept that these big cosmic types are less easily utilized so theyre going to feature in less stories, going to have less feats, but based on what feats they do possess and the comments of characters on panel, reputable characters, we should rank them based on those things as opposed to demoting them because their nature means they have less feats? 😬

The Cubes themselves state they are inferior, Odins a prime example of why your ABC logic does not work and why common sense needs to be applied.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Odin a skyfather who is below Galactus wielded enough power to destroy the multiverse,

Here Surtur reveals that Otherworld is the home of ALL magic, it is connected to all realms, and "striking a match there would make all realities a pyre, all universes kindling". From Mighty Thor # 20 :

Claiming that such power could destroy the multiverse is like throwing a burning torch or candle into a lake of gasoline and believing that the resultant supermassive explosion can be caused by that candle/torch alone.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Shhh......let's not upset guy. He probably read this post then puke

Don't worry guy Celestials can still:

Crush skyfather tag teams
Stomp Watchers (literally)
Save LT in a future timeline
Transform into Voltron (alternates)
Hurl a entire solar system of planets with a gesture...etc

It's only for the context of this debate.
They still bout that life. 😎
Carry on.

good morning friend 🙂

i know exactly what the celestials can do

if not i would lose my title as the biggest celestial fan there is 😛

i always read interesting posts and just admire

its fun

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It was a universe burning fire. The only reason that it was going to destroy the multiverse was because Surtur planned on channeling it through Otherworld, and destroy all realities in the ensuing ruckus.

Here Surtur reveals that Otherworld is the home of ALL magic, it is connected to all realms, and [b]"striking a match there would make all realities a pyre, all universes kindling". From Mighty Thor # 20 :

Claiming that such power could destroy the multiverse is like throwing a burning torch or candle into a lake of gasoline and believing that the resultant supermassive explosion can be caused by that candle/torch alone. [/B]

Well aware of this.

The same point was the reason why the Chaos Wave was multiversal in its destructive capacity. Not through sheer power, but by the fact that it was unleashed in Otherworld without warning initiating a domino effect 🙂

So i hope now when you hear people state that the Chaos Wave was a big multiversal power, you will interject and correct them. 🙂

Regardless the power Odin was channeling was enough to destroy a universe, potentially the multiverse and he redirected it.

Odins battle with Seth had multiversal effects to.

Such feats are better than any 616 Celestial. Mr Masters logic dictates then that we should perceive Odin as greater than the Celestials. 😬

I say, characters that are more connected to regular staples, characters who interact more with heroes/villains and are more utilized will naturally have more feats and even greater feats than big cosmic types that rarely show up or interact.

However if we're told on panel by the cube beings that they are below Celestials generally by quite a bit, if we know that Celestial individuals vary in power, if Kubik explains that yes whilst cubes might be able to do amazing high level feats but there are levels of infinity and they are below the Celestials then we must acept that.

I do not need to see Chaos or Order redirecting universal energies and warping universes to know that they are greater than Odin.

It is all about common sense.

On panel we're told where the cubes lie by themselves, other cosmics tell us the cubes are below them and the cubes explain away any discrepancies with their explanation of levels of infinity.

Having the capacity to destroy a universe does not make you greater than Eternity.

You do not need to see like for like feats to know where a character stands in the hierarchy, especially when official sources tell you whats the case.

As far as Marvels concerned they have officially told us where the cubes and cube beings lie, it is forum readers who need to see like for like feats for our own satisfaction. Irrelevant.

^^^ Feats >> Hyperbolic and/or statements without substance.

Feats + Statements >>>>> Hyperbolic and/or statements without substance.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

It was a universe burning fire. The only reason that it was going
to destroy the multiverse was because Surtur planned on
channeling it through Otherworld, and destroy all realities in the
ensuing ruckus.

Here Surtur reveals that Otherworld is the home of ALL magic, it is
connected to all realms, and "striking a match there would make
all realities a pyre, all universes kindling". From Mighty Thor # 20 :

Claiming that such power could destroy the multiverse is like throwing
a burning torch or candle into a lake of gasoline and believing that
the resultant supermassive explosion can be caused by that
candle/torch alone.

I see now homie's using the "chaos wave"
to demean your shut down of his comparisons involving Odin. lol

But I guess the kid forgot that Wanda put everything back with a thought.

The Omniversal destruction,
the 616 Reality from the 58163 she had turned it into,
the 90% mutant gene nullification across all Timelines
save for literally a few that involved a stipulation.

We've already shared this info here at kmc so it's no surprise.
I've said it before as you know that the Chaos Wave wasn't Wanda's best feat,
it was "No more Mutants" that impressed most.

Although, regardless,
it WAS Wanda's power (chaos wave) that crashed the Omniverse,
and the Chaos Wave
(or "Wanda's Reality Warp"😉 as the FOUR official Handbooks label it)
was a spillage of her power flowing out of 616 and was unbelievably powerful.
Roma told us it was still traveling and eventually
perhaps to the "Ascension Itself" (still don't know what that is,
but obviously implies something beyond, beyond, especially coming from Her.

Remember, Meggan had absorbed all the power from Earth (minus Wanda)
and Otherworld (which includes the Starlight Citadel Nexus)
which leads to the Pan-DimensionS Otherworld is connected to,
and still with the power of all creation inside her,
she was only able to slow the wave down for a moment before it overwhelmed her.