Originally posted by ThereIsHope
There is so much fanboyism in this place. KILL IT OH GOD KILL IT
I dont follow.
Who is being a fanboy here and why?
Because someones stating something you dont agree with? That doesnt make someone a fanboy. ❌
If its because someone fanatically refuses to except explicit non ambiguous on panel proof then instead then why dont you critique the scans presented you take issue with and support your case with your own evidence?
Its easy to pop in and drop a comment. To construct a well justified argument however, that takes quite a bit more effort 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont follow.Who is being a fanboy here and why?
Because someones stating something you dont agree with? That doesnt make someone a fanboy. ❌
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By that same token it was a single Celestial in GOTG who took charge and quickly took out Protege as he was just getting acclimatized to LT's power and saved the day.The Celestial race is made up of individuals of varying power levels, not all are as powerful as Tiamut or Arishem. Plus those Celestials were from an alternate timeline so there are a number of ways we can explain that GOTG incident off.
As for the Mad Celestials, remember that the Celestials of 616 stated that when grown up Franklin had the potential to match them in power. Then you have adult Franklin showing that hes in the same ballpark as those Mad Celestials which some could use to argue that that proves the 616 Celestials point plus shows that those Mad Celestials were on par with those of 616.
Imo an average Galactus is a bit beyond a skyfather, but no match for a cube being or a powerful Celestial. When charged up on the energies of multiple planets Galactus gains parity with powerful Celestials.
That depends on how vast the gap would be between the different breeds of Celestials. I mean on one hand we have specimens like Ashema and Arishem who can store whole pocket dimensions in their bodies or seal them off from the Earthly realm, and on the other we have goofballs like Devron and Gamiel who barely have herald level feats.
Adult Franklin showed that he was pretty much the Mad Gods' daddy on an individual basis. And the Mad Gods had feats all over the place with one of them one-shot half-killing a Starbrand user and then another being slagged to death by Reed's entropy gun.
An average Galactus fought alongside the 616-Celestials against the Galactus Engine, and the very same Galactus remained in the picture to defend the universe after all the other Abstracts involved fled from the scene. ABC logic between cosmic cubes, skyfathers and Celestials isn't enough imo to conclusively prove these characters' power levels.
In fact I can't believe that I am saying this, but I somewhat agree with Tom Brevoort's assessment of these characters in that at such immense scales of power anyone can beat anyone as required by the plot.
Edit: If you don't know what I am talking about, its the responses Brevoort gave to complains he got on his Formspring from fans who were dissatisfied with Galactus' good performance in Fantastic Four #603 in contrast to the skyfathers' performance in Thor # 300.
Let go of the Cube logic. Its not worth getting into. Look at it this way.
If not for Kubiks statement of inferiority to the Celestials. No one would have thought they where inferior in the first place. You than factor in, that writers have not respected that statement for years, which is provoking a building gap inconsistency within the versus forums. And finally, that statement was one time, 20 years ago.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And that Celestial has never been seen since that comic took place. Also the way Eternity and Hawk God referred to him, it was pretty much established that he was a pretty special guy, even among other Abstracts. On the other hand, no such implication of special status was implied for the cube apart from the fact that it was the last one in existence iirc which in itself doesn't prove its specialty.
And has that particular cube been seen ever since? lol. What relevance to the debate does it have if that Celestial has never been seen since, virtually none of those characters except the Abstracts will be seen again because the story was set in an alternate future timeline. You mentioned about a Cosmic Cube controlling some Celestials in this alternate future timeline, i reminded you of the fact that a Celestial in the same comic saved reality from Protege. The point is that the Celestial race has members of varying different power levels. Thats well known canon. So some Celestials being "many orders of magnitude" greater in power than the cubes and some being on par or below them is entirely feasible. Regardless the cube beings made their comments and their explanation regarding differing levels of infinity and the canon fact that Celestials differ in power level from each other takes care of any discrepancies you perceive on panel.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That depends on how vast the gap would be between the different breeds of Celestials. I mean on one hand we have specimens like Ashema and Arishem who can store whole pocket dimensions in their bodies or seal them off from the Earthly realm, and on the other we have goofballs like Devron and Gamiel who barely have herald level feats.
True. From what we've seen on panel their power levels differ dramatically, but given the Cube beings comments its safe to conclude that a powerful Celestial is considerably greater than a cube.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Adult Franklin showed that he was pretty much the Mad Gods' daddy on an individual basis. And the Mad Gods had feats all over the place with one of them one-shot half-killing a Starbrand user and then another being slagged to death by Reed's entropy gun.
I wouldnt go that far. Have a re-read of that battle sequence. Galactus powered up on those 4 planets did a better job fighting the Celestials en masse and was winning until they amalgamated. Franklin did ok one on one with the Celestials and started to get overpowered by the Celestial in a non amalgam form before having to unite and channel his power through Galactus. But thats me going off a tangent anyway lol. Focus. 😂
Again. Youre just proving the known point that Celestial members have differing power levels. This explains away any discrepancies or inconsistencies and doesnt contradict the cube beings comments that the Celestials in general are far more powerful than they.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
An average Galactus fought alongside the 616-Celestials against the Galactus Engine, and the very same Galactus remained in the picture to defend the universe after all the other Abstracts involved fled from the scene. ABC logic between cosmic cubes, skyfathers and Celestials isn't enough imo to conclusively prove these characters' power levels.
An average Galactus? Says who?
The only ABC logic here is held by those who would ignore the cube beings own comments about being under Celestials, LT's comments about the cubes being minor cosmics, the comments from both about the Great Powers just playing along with the Beyonders' experiment just because the cube beings can destroy or reshape a universe.
Its like people think Eternitys a universe. The cubes can destroy a universe. Cubes equal or are greater than Eternity 😐 That is ABC logic.
Odin and Surtur can destroy a universe as shown in Mighty Thor, however the comic also established Odin is below Galactus in the hierarchy.
It is not JUST being able to do something, its about the comparative ease with which you can do something and the nature and characteristics of the characters.
Silver Surfer can blow up planets and reshape planetary matter. He cannot take on Ego.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In fact I can't believe that I am saying this, but I somewhat agree with Tom Brevoort's assessment of these characters in that at such immense scales of power anyone can beat anyone as required by the plot.
Edit: If you don't know what I am talking about, its the responses Brevoort gave to complains he got on his Formspring from fans who were dissatisfied with Galactus' good performance in Fantastic Four #603 in contrast to the skyfathers' performance in Thor # 300.
I agree with that completely. We can debate all we want here but ultimately when dealing with characters who can destroy universes and reshape reality, who wins in battle is ultimately down to plot. However how someone would fare in battle isnt the same as who is more powerful.
Originally posted by "Id"
Let go of the Cube logic. Its not worth getting into. Look at it this way.If not for Kubiks statement of inferiority to the Celestials. No one would have thought they where inferior in the first place. You than factor in, that writers have not respected that statement for years, which is provoking a building gap inconsistency within the versus forums. And finally, that statement was one time, 20 years ago.
The statement was made June 1993, after major cube storylines such as Infinity War and at the same time as Infinity Crusade.
So i cant see how you'd come to the conclusion that it has been ignored.
If anything the fact that in Infinity Crusade multiple cubes were required to bring about universal domination is telling, given this cube retcon.
Can you tell me of any canon cosmic cube stories since which have completely rubbished Kubiks statements since they were made?
How the Cosmic Cubes power was brushed aside by Magus in the last couple years in Guardians of the Galaxy is again telling.
i think the way breevoort looked at it is the BEST way to view it, and i think it's a stance that is taken more and more in comics by writers who seem to be flying in the face of some continuity. the establishment of a hierarchy seems to be of FAR greater relevance to fans, than it does to writers. i've always sort of thought this need to rank these supreme power-types was kinda silly.
Originally posted by leonidas
i think the way breevoort looked at it is the BEST way to view it, and i think it's a stance that is taken more and more in comics by writers who seem to be flying in the face of some continuity. the establishment of a hierarchy seems to be of FAR greater relevance to fans, than it does to writers. i've always sort of thought this need to rank these supreme power-types was kinda silly.
Agreed.
It keeps things a lot simpler.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerIn a GoTG comic, the Badoon enslaved the whole Celestial race using only a single cosmic cube.
Of course it's an alternate future timeline and one could try and argue
that those alternate future Celestials are apparently weaker than their
mainstream counterparts, but that line of logic could be applied to the
Mad Celestials that Franklin and Galactus fought as well.Celestials in general just don't seem to be the same cosmic be all end
all things they were made out to be in Thor#300. The negative fan
reaction to that comic may have been the reason for why they were
seemingly downgraded from armored space gods to a bunch of
transformer-rejects who can't kill Ben Grimm, can be damaged by
CCR-amped Johnny, get easily slagged to death by a random
entropy gun in Reed's closet etc.
Anyone who knows anything about CCUs knows they restrict (limit)
their power upon fully maturing as a Cube Being.
CCUs have done more than any Celestial save for Scathan.
And Cube Beings have also surpassed Celestials in feats.
Beyonder (Cube being) Remade All Creation in 2010.
I'll be posting other extraordinary feats unseen much.
nuff said'
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆Anyone who knows anything about CCUs knows they restrict (limit)
their power upon fully maturing as a Cube Being.CCUs have done more than any Celestial save for Scathan.
And Cube Beings have also surpassed Celestials in feats.
Beyonder (Cube being) Remade All Creation in 2010.
I'll be posting other extraordinary feats unseen much.
nuff said'
Celestials have varying powers as a race thats common knowledge and demonstrated by the GOTG incidents, a CC being able to enslave some members, whilst one Celestial took out Protege.
Reshaping a universe doesnt make you greater than Eternity. No more than planetary destruction or reshaping power makes SS greater than Gaea or Ego.
Levels of infinity.
The cube beings AFTER stories such as Infinity War and during the time of Infinity Crusade that their power is less than the Celestials, FAR less.
They acknowledged that they have infinite power and can do amazing things to space/time but they made it clear that there are levels of infinity and that despite what they are capable of, the likes of the Celestials and up are greater than them.
Unless you see within 616 a cosmic cube face down the Celestials or the Abstracts then you have no justification to try and claim as fact that that is not the case.
The characters in question, the cubes, state where they are in the hierarchy and explain about levels of infinity and that is enough to cover any discrepancies.
Odin can wield sufficient energies to destroy the universe if ALLOWED to. That does not make him greater than Eternity.
The cubes as stated on panel are permitted experiments that the Great Powers stated they played along with and allowed to be used and to develop with little interference save for some encouragement to help them develop into cube beings.
The cube beings power are not cut down in power from the cubes, however as sentient beings, the way they use that power is different. The power level remains the same. So Kubiks statement, his EXPLICIT statement remains secure within continuity.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Then how come Post-retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man where nothing to the Abstracts.
Despite the Cubes stating they are below the abstracts and Celestials, despite them explaining that regardless of the things they can do and their infinite power, that there are levels of infinity and the Celestials are greater than them, Mr Master is possessed of the basic logic that if you can warp reality, or possess enough power to destroy a universe then you are greater than Eternity 😬
Odin can wield and manipulate energies capable of destroying the multiverse:
and yet the same series made it clear that in the hierarchy he is below an average Galactus in power :
What Mr Master needs to acknowledge is that the cube beings, the things in question have made explicit statements about the matter we're debating, statements which counter discrepancies he may perceive (feats that seem too great for the cubes stated place in the hierarchy)
Characters like Odin show that universal scale destructive or manipulative power isnt automatically an indicator of a position in the hierarchy greater than the Abstracts.
levels of infinity
Its all about the comparative ease with which beings can pull off the same feats. Its all about how they fare in battle (whilst considering any factors which may determine whether they win or lose beyond pure power) and it is about the nature and characteristics of the entities i.e their roles, agendas
Odin can destroy the multiverse if he was allowed to. Many characters could. However that doesnt make him greater or on par with Eternity. He couldnt pull off the feat as easily as Galactus, who couldnt pull it off as easy as Eternity, who couldnt do it as easily as LT.
Originally posted by GalacticStormCelestials have varying powers as a race thats common
knowledge and demonstrated by the GOTG incidents, a CC being
able to enslave some members, whilst one Celestial took out
Protege.Reshaping a universe doesnt make you greater than Eternity. No
more than planetary destruction or reshaping power makes SS
greater than Gaea or Ego.Levels of infinity.
The cube beings AFTER stories such as Infinity War and during the
time of Infinity Crusade that their power is less than the Celestials, FAR less.They acknowledged that they have infinite power and can do
amazing things to space/time but they made it clear that there are
levels of infinity and that despite what they are capable of, the likes
of the Celestials and up are greater than them.Unless you see within 616 a cosmic cube face down the Celestials
or the Abstracts then you have no justification to try and claim as
fact that that is not the case.
The characters in question, the cubes, state where they are in the
hierarchy and explain about levels of infinity and that is enough to
cover any discrepancies.
Odin can wield sufficient energies to destroy the universe if
ALLOWED to. That does not make him greater than Eternity.
The cubes as stated on panel are permitted experiments that the
Great Powers stated they played along with and allowed to be used
and to develop with little interference save for some
encouragement to help them develop into cube beings.
The cube beings power are not cut down in power from the cubes,
however as sentient beings, the way they use that power is
different. The power level remains the same. So Kubiks statement,
his EXPLICIT statement remains secure within continuity.
Same ol same ol ...
This comedy is such, I just can't stop laughing over here.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Despite the Cubes stating they are below the abstracts and Celestials, despite them explaining that regardless of the things they can do and their infinite power, that there are levels of infinity and the Celestials are greater than them, Mr Master is possessed of the basic logic that if you can warp reality, or possess enough power to destroy a universe then you are greater than EternityOdin can wield and manipulate energies capable of destroying the multiverse:
and yet the same series made it clear that in the hierarchy he is below an average Galactus in power :
What Mr Master needs to acknowledge is that the cube beings, the things in question have made explicit statements about the matter we're debating, statements which counter discrepancies he may perceive (feats that seem too great for the cubes stated place in the hierarchy)
Characters like Odin show that universal scale destructive or manipulative power isnt automatically an indicator of a position in the hierarchy greater than the Abstracts.
levels of infinity
Its all about the comparative ease with which beings can pull off the same feats. Its all about how they fare in battle (whilst considering any factors which may determine whether they win or lose beyond pure power) and it is about the nature and characteristics of the entities i.e their roles, agendas
Odin can destroy the multiverse if he was allowed to. Many characters could. However that doesnt make him greater or on par with Eternity. He couldnt pull off the feat as easily as Galactus, who couldnt pull it off as easy as Eternity, who couldnt do it as easily as LT.
I could care less about verbal boastings
when the character hasn't done jack to warrant such esteem.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Get this hyperbolic garbage out here dogs.I could care less about verbal boastings
when the character hasn't done jack to warrant such esteem.
Verbal boastings?
Who? The cubes or Odin?
The cubes are stating their power is inferior so they have nothing to boast about.
And Odin isnt boasting, he simply acted and channeled energies capable of destroying the multiverse.
Yet the same series establishes hes below Galactus 🙂
Your ABC logic, this character can destroy a universe so theyre abstract level is denied on panel and is a superficial assessment and conclusion.
I admire your passion for comics though 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Verbal boastings?Who? The cubes or Odin?
The cubes are stating their power is inferior so they have nothing to boast about.
And Odin isnt boasting, he simply acted and channeled energies capable of destroying the multiverse.
Yet the same series establishes hes below Galactus
Your ABC logic, this character can destroy a universe so theyre abstract level is denied on panel and is a superficial assessment and conclusion.
I admire your passion for comics though
Let's see a Celestial performing a Universal feat.
Let's see a Celestial creating and/or destroying even a single universe.
Let's see a Celestial defeating someone who's even just universal.
(oops, universal Franky is killing Celestials)
Let's see a Celestial's mean something to even just the Universe.
hm
Aside from Scathan ... there is no Celestial that has done anything of cosmic significance.
While Cube beings and Containment Units have perfomred on a Universal level,
Multiversal level,
TRANS-Multiversal level,
and Omniversal level.
Next.
