Satele and Marek vs The Sith Emperor

Originally posted by Arhael
And what is wrong in that? And Vitiate got help in conquering half of the republic, so do I lowballing him for that?

Originally posted by Arhael
And this statement based on what exactly? You have some room to argue about UnuThul but your assumption about Lord Nyax is baseless and wrong, Luke was no match for him both in the Force and lightsaber combat. Luke, Mara and Tahiri fought him with lightsabers simultaneously and couldn't defeat him (And he was inexperienced combatant as evidenced by analysis of a Yuuzhan Vong). Also, Luke made intelligent move, he executed a kick into his hand, so one of his 8 lightsabers could kill him but a safe mechanism switched off that lightsaber.
As for Force he simultaneously nearly mind dominated all three Jedi. When Luke, Mara and Tahiri got empowered by Force nexus, they only could throw heavier objects. When he got empowered, he was flying in the air high above and created huge storm of various objects destroying skyscrapers and Yuuzhan Vong ships. And that storm lasted even after he died.

Why, when fighting Lord Nyax, does Luke seem so weak?

At the point he first encounters Lord Nyax, Luke is tired and dispirited, which makes him more vulnerable to Nyax's mental manipulation attacks. And through a bizarre (and, we hope, not reproduceable) combination of biology and hardware, Lord Nyax is able to project a tremendous amount of power into his mental compulsion abilities, enough to affect even the most powerful Jedi. This doesn't make him more powerful in the Force than those Jedi — it just means that he has one or two areas where his "energy output" exceeds theirs. (We can assume that constant use of his powers at that level might burn him out after a while... but the events of Rebel Stand all take place before he reaches that point.)

From here: http://www.aaronallston.com/factpages/faqswars.html

If you will continue to argue like this, you will loose credibility in debates. You do not point out the sources. You twist canonical information to favour your arguments or misinterpret them. You never explained that how Nyax died and how Luke played his part in his death.

Originally posted by Arhael
Compare experience in lightsaber combat of Luke and Rainar Thul and it will make perfect sense. And superior lightsaber combat is not example of superior power.

The intelligence part of confrontation with Unu'Thul has been pinpointed by me already in my previous response which was associated with countering his mental influence. So it would be good for you to drop this example.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which shows his intelligence as there were more powerful opponents against him and he often was heavily outnumbered.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, so was Vitiate.

You seem to be hell-bent in destroying your credibility in debates with these idiotic one-liners.

I wish to open your mind. But you are not getting the memo.

Originally posted by Arhael
Then take your words back about dismissing Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat, you started this thing. Or finally start giving examples of intelligence during combat as it is the only thing that matters in versus thread.

This is my original statement:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
See the explanation of second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate above. Point is that it is very difficult to make realistic assessment of qualities of characters on the basis of what happens during gameplay. The concept of [I]dramatic conflict is absent in gameplay. This is where novels come in to the picture. And Vitiate was fantastic in novel. He was not just extraordinarily powerful but also a smart decision-maker.

Luke isn't that smart to be honest. On many difficult occasions, he made it through with help of others. Read his novels properly and you will understand my point. Yes, Luke is immensely powerful. However, he can loose too - to other immensely powerful individuals. Many people do not pay attention to circumstances. They always focus on outcomes. I do not follow this approach.

------------

My standing has been clear and precise from the beginning. But NO! You are hell-bent on claiming that Vitiate is stupid and Luke is the most intelligent Jedi in the history of the Star Wars just for the sake of point scoring.

I never stated that he isn't smart. I stated that he isn't that smart. Their is a difference between the two. But for the sake of argument, you just could not control yourself. You should expand on a point, if you are very capable at explaining your point. Otherwise, refrain from doing so.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing to ponder. It is sign of Jedi or Sith intelligence and common sense to use various tools and skills in order to increase their capabilities and chances of winning.

Spoiler:
Lightsaber combat is one of them

Now consider the analogy of Bane and Zannah here. Bane was a great lightsaber combatant but also intelligent decision-maker. He killed Kas'im with his intelligent decision-making during combat and not martial prowess.

Similarly, Zannah took out Raskta Lsu with a clever move (stabbed her from behind) and not with her martial prowess.

Therefore, lightsaber dueling skills are not a good indication of one's intelligence in combat. They do not make an individual a brilliant tactician.

Originally posted by Arhael
That power alone gives him the win against any opponent. Power alone ensured his victory. You give same statement about Luke but it is multiple times more true about Vitiate.

Tell me, whom would you consider more intelligent from the two;

1. An individual who plans and prepares himself in advance for an upcoming threat to control the outcome.
2. An individual who goes in to a fight and attempts to outwit the opponent during the fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is way easier to sit on a throne and with superior power alone make your foe bend to your knees. Things for Luke have never been even remotely as easy. If Luke is Gary Stue, then Vitiate is his grandfather or at least Bandon's brother.

Originally posted by Arhael
Name at least single Sith/Jedi that could mind dominate Vitiate. Name at least one Sith with lightning as strong as his, even Palpatine was proven to have weaker lightning in another thread. Name at least one Jedi/Sith that could handle him with Force alone. Name at least one Sith, who could handle four strong Jedi as easily as him. Name at least one Sith that leaved over millennium. Typical assumption is that no one can handle him alone. Even you refuse to agree that Marek and Satele had at least some tiny chance of defeating him 1x1.
How many times Luke lost to someone? A lot. But how many time Vitiate lost to someone? Only 1. How many times Vitiate had to at least break some sweat to defeat someone? Only two times: Revan, JK. And how many times Luke struggled and nearly died? A lot.
Clearly N1 Gary Stue is Vitiate.

And Vitiate is vastly underrated in duels. In almost every thread, I am forced to argue for him. This alone disproves your baseless assumption that Vitiate is N1 Gary Stue of Star Wars. Luke is and will remain N1 Gary Stu for a long time.

Originally posted by Arhael
I merely attempted to prove that both Satele and Marek had a chance to defeat Vitiate alone. While you had to bring up Luke irrelevant to the thread and attempted to portray him as a dumb shit by stating that he didn't need intelligence and power alone was ensuring his win, while it is much more true for Vitiate.

Power matters in fair terms if employed properly, which is what these hypothetical contests are mostly about. Yes! When you involve circumstances then things can be different.

Vitiate has strong advantage in this fight in fair terms because he knows how to use his powers effectively and can mind dominate both Marek and Satele. If the duo acts early on and manage to prevent Vitiate from mind dominating them, then the duo have a chance to win. If not, then this contest is over. This is the crux of my argument.

You have gone to extreme lengths to argue against Vitiate's chances in mind dominating the duo. I mean, are you really this stupid? It is strongly evident from Vitiate's story that his mental powers are elite and even Satele Shan was reluctant to face him in combat due to this factor. Not just this but Vitiate have crushed the will of any adversary he wanted to, even if once.

Also see the example of Lord Nyax. It is not just about raw power. Natural talent and command over it is very important factor as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
I know what voices are about. I, also, know that voices and intelligence demonstrated outside of combat has no weight in a Versus thread, where the only thing that matters is combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
He fought him more, than ones, when odds were against him. And at one point he Force blasted him into a wall, so he broke his leg. His intelligence was shown during those fights.

Originally posted by Arhael
Simple. First, stop bringing up irrelevant topics to the thread like intelligence outside combat, Luke and Abeloth.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, concede that each Marek and Satele had at least some chance against Vitiate alone. I never said that they pawn him, I agree that odds are on his side. Yet, you will never convince me that his victory is guarantied.

Originally posted by Arhael
So is questionable opinion about Vitiate being weakened. Also, we don't see the fight, its game mechanics

And you are saying that the player does not gets the option to confront Vitiate second time with light side choices, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
this is sign of his superior power and only. Lord Nyax had half brain missing because of that he couldn't even talk and operated on animal instincts. Yet, his mind domination is arguably the strongest in mythos. Yuuzhan Vong couldn't stop him. Luke, Mara and Tahiri couldn't outmatch him in combat. Do we call him intelligent for that as well?

Originally posted by Arhael
I agree that Vitiate was very intelligent considering his over 1000 years life span. But still you can't say that he did much better decisions in comparison, it is too vague subject and his superior power allowed him to achieve much more, than others.

Originally posted by Arhael
You only clarified it for me. He did not consider fighting him, either he was worthy for serving, or he simply would kill him. He would kill him, only, if Vitiate was weak, which is not true.

Originally posted by Arhael
Conceded

Originally posted by Arhael
In case if he meets an opponent that can resist his Force powers, I assumed you would come to the same conclusion. Indeed he is a good decision maker after living over 1000 years. But he got too smug thinking that all his life his power alone would be enough to handle anyone in combat.

Everybody has talent and is intelligent to some degree. However, some are more intelligent then others and can make better decisions.

Vitiate is a brilliant tactician and also a formidable fighter. In contrast, Luke is a formidable fighter but not a brilliant tactician. Both are intelligent in their own right but Vitiate more so due to being a brilliant tactician. Get it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you stupid or a retard? I asked you to stop it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Conceded. Which enforces the fact even more that in combat he relied on power alone. There is no intelligence whatsoever in overpowering someone with shear force.

I would re-analyse second Revan-Vitiate encounter again for you. It should be noted that both were brilliant tacticians and formidable combatants. However, one factor made a significant impact in the outcome.

Revan planned beforehand on how to deal with Vitiate. His plan involved both Scourge and Meetra and was a decent one.

Revan's infiltration came as a surprise to Vitiate. The latter did realized that somebody had infiltrated his stronghold and was heading towards his throne room. This is why he empowered his Imperial Guard to deal with the threat during the fight but he did not suspected involvement of Revan, which is understandable. When Revan confronted Vitiate; Vitiate decided not to let Revan get close to him due to his lightsaber skills by any means necessary and he employed his powers to upheld his decision (good decision right here). Yes! Vitiate did not noticed another Jedi advancing towards him and was caught off-guard by her attack when he made his final move to kill Revan. But then Vitiate had done something already that would change the outcome of this contest in his favour; he had confused Scourge with his enormous power. When 3 versus 1 situation came, that confusion worked in Vitiate's favor and so did the outcome.

What conclusion can one draw from this encounter? It indicates that power and smart decision-making, if coupled together, can do wonders indirectly or directly.

Revan came up with a plan to deal with Vitiate; Vitiate put his plan in to jeopardy with his powers, influence, and good decision-making during the fight.

Vitiate would have been stupid if he would have allowed Revan to get close to him during the fight because that would have granted his adversary a chance to strike him down.

It was not like Vitiate was using his powers mindlessely. He was being calculative and he made a good decision to keep Revan away from him. Get the memo now?

Originally posted by Arhael
Stop directing me nowhere.

Originally posted by Arhael
He electrocutes them, until they are down. Your assumption has no weight. He had to fully concentrate to mind dominate one individual like Revan. Mind dominating simultaneously 4 Jedi in combat would be even bigger feat. But mind dominating, while using FLS, which is another ability requiring full concentration and gathering power, is highly unlikely and baseless assumption.

"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."

In addition, I have given you another hint from a video.

Why you keep acting stubborn?

It is better to concede your confusion in this part and not rely on your assumption repeatedly.

Originally posted by Arhael
What's the point of explaining me something I already know? This ability will not help him win. For the same reason this ability does not count, when comparing characters in versus forum as it does not add any value to combat. If you want to talk about voices, go to Emperors primer thread.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is the same as relying on power alone. And he didn't use guards against Revan and Malak, he relied on his power alone. Revan's attack was unexpected.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I thank you for that. The intelligence topic is totally pointless in this thread. The only relevant thing is combat. That's why I talk about intelligence displayed during combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lets see. Thul handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Vitiate handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Thul tried to overpower Luke with the Force. Failed. Vitiate tried to overpower JK with the Force. Failed. Unlike Vitiate, Thul used lightsaber as the last option, therefore he showed more intelligence and versatility during combat, than Vitiate. Thul might have been just a tool of Lomi Plo but there is not much difference in the ways both of them tried to handle others in combat.

And read this:-

Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Forceslamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

Source: The Swarm War

Raynar was not being calculative. He foolishly tangled with Luke with his lightsaber skills.

Vitiate is nothing like Raynar. He understood that martial aspects of combat have its flaws. And he developed his powers to compensate for it. He did not rushed in to combat or fight without thinking clearly. He was patient and calculative. Vitiate does not uses his powers mindlessely. Whether they work or not is different story.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same with Vitiate, his power got him, where he is. I am not arguing that Luke is the most intelligent. But he showed far more intelligence during combat, than Vitiate as his powers were nowhere near his. His intelligence in combat is part of his Gary Stue abilities. That's why, when he can't rely on powers alone, he still wins.

Vitiate is a brilliant tactician while Luke is not. Yes! Luke learned a lot from his mistakes and improved his shortcomings with passage of time. He grew wiser as he aged which is a norm for many individuals.

Their is nothing wrong with using powers. It is a method to get the job done. However, good decision-making is equally important factor.

What I dislike about Luke is that even when he is badly injured or almost crippled, he possesses the strength to get the job done. What nonsense is this? Things like weakening, exhaustion, and fatal injuries do not stop Luke. This is why he is Gary Stu of Star Wars.

---------------

More responses will come later on.

As attempted to shorten lengthy and useless argument I will stop discussing irrelevant stuff and go back.

I acknowledge that the duo of Marek and Satale have a chance in defeating him, if they manage to prevent him from mind dominating them - which is a big IF.

Our lengthy argument started on first place because you didn't give them any chance at all:

On individual basis, none of these two stand a chance against Vitiate.

Vitiate:
As for intelligence, yes, Vitiate is brilliant tactician, great planner and one of the most intelligent person in mythos. However, that's not what we weighting in a Versus Thread. Here we assume that two characters will be put into one place and start fight with each other without any preparations. Therefore, when we evaluate characters, we focus on what he can do during combat and only.

From all known feats of Vitiate we know that his combat went as far as overpower opponents with mind domination, TK and Force lightning. All his powers are aimed at his enemy, he never threw a brick at his opponent. He never displayed any ability to outwit or outskill his opponent because he was more powerful, than all his adversaries. Which makes it clear, that if his opponent can resist his powers like JK, he has no other options left to defeat his opponent.

Satele
As I pointed out before there is no prove that she can be mind dominated, I am, yet, to see Vitiate mind dominate someone during combat as powerful as Satele.
Jedi Strike team example doesn't help as he is seeing to use FLS from beginning to the end. And we know that FLS is the ability that requires full concentration and gathering power. We also know that FLS against strike team looks more powerful, than FS against JK, so we can't assume him crushing their will simultaneously. Also, we see how Tol Braga as experienced Jedi is able to block that FLS for a while but fails, which shows how potent that lightning was.

As for Satele's absorb levels. She is shown absorbing lightsaber, which is the deadliest power known, lightning never incinerated someone as fast. Yet, we can't safely assume that she will be able to absorb his lightning. Because we have Corran Horn who fully inherited absorbing talent from his descendant Keiran Halkion (another character that showed lightsaber absorbing). He was unable to fully absorbing Abeloth's lightning, although, her lightning is likely above any of Sith known.

Overall, she has chance of resisting Vitiate's powers and striking him down but the odds are obviously on his side.

Marek:

Marek's struggle with the most powerful Sith and his displayed nearly limitless capabilities show that he was nearly as powerful as him. In my opinion it is enough to put him on level with Vitiate. In any case it shows that he's got a chance to win Vitiate.

Why, when fighting Lord Nyax, does Luke seem so weak?

At the point he first encounters Lord Nyax, Luke is tired and dispirited...

Originally posted by Arhael
Marek's struggle with the most powerful Sith and his displayed nearly limitless capabilities show that he was nearly as powerful as him.

'Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' - Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' - Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Also, SW, you wanted prove about Nyax? here it is.

I gonna quote example referring only to Luke vs Nyax, don’t think you would be impressed by his feats of casually handling Vong and several Voxins.

Nyax mind domination, while he is fighting Yuuzhan Vong simultaneously:
Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.
In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.

He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."

It was the Jedi way. Jedi did not attack. But to position oneself in the path of a violent aggressor who would not yield achieved the same result.

All he could ever do as leader of the wartime Jedi was lead them into the path of the enemy. That was, Luke realized, perhaps his greatest limitation, and in struggling against it without understanding it, he may have hampered the Jedi effectiveness against the enemy.

But once recognized and accepted, it was also perhaps his greatest strength. Whether by accident or design, by his own will or by the permutations of the Force, he had always found his way into the path of the great enemies of all things living.

And here he was again. "I stand in your way," Luke repeated, and was pleased that he had regained control over his voice. "What you see, you will not achieve."
Prove that he was untrained combatant:
”The pale thing fought with a savagery and speed unlike those of any warrior he had ever seen. And it was untrained. With his experienced warrior's eye, he could see that its movements were instinctive, a fact revealed in the creature's failure to throw effective combinations of blows, its inability to gauge which way its enemies would leap when it attacked them.

If it had been born Yuuzhan Vong, if he'd been able to train it for a year, even half a year, he could have turned this thing into the greatest warrior who was not himself a god. As it was, he'd have to kill this thing.

Even if the Jeedai, too, wanted it dead, it was still an abomination. And it was the greater threat. It had to die first. He threw his last razorbug, then lunged forward into hand-to-hand range, probing at the pale thing's back with the tail-tip of his amphistaff.”

Prove that his untrained combat surpassed Luke’s with his Gary Stue potential and over 20 years experience:
”Far below, the treads spun into action. The construction droid's machinery whined as the gigantic machine J lurched into action... and then crashed into the dura-crete wall before it.

Unable to hear, Mara bit off a curse. She tucked her comlink away and jumped back into the fight, deflected a pair of thudbugs, took a swipe at Lord Nyax's hand; its arm rotated and it caught the attack on its lightsaber blade.

Luke flipped over the pale thing, striking as he went; his blow was blocked.

Tahiri, in front, lunged forward... and stumbled, right into the path of a knee blade. Mara reached out, an effort to shove with the Force, knowing that she was too late, knowing that the knee-blade would emerge in a fraction of a second from the back of Tahiri's skull-but Tahiri whipped to the side, still in control, still in balance, even as Luke crashed feetfirst into Lord Nyax's neck, forcing its head down toward its own knee-blade.

The blade turned itself off. Lord Nyax's head passed through empty space. Luke, backflipping to his feet, offered up an expression of bafflement and frustration.

Mara sighed. It had been a feint, an effort to trick the thing into spearing itself with its own weapons. But its designers had been too thorough. There were fail-safes.”

Lord nyax’s full mental capabilities:
“Then he made a thought and drove it into their heads.
It hit Luke like a razorbug fired straight through his forehead. Luke staggered under the pain. His back hit the irregular floor. He waved his lightsaber up and in front of him, a defensive form, but there was no follow-up blow for him to counter.

So he did what he had to whenever he was confused. He reached out, touching Mara in the Force. He didn't have to open his mind to her; his mind was as open as it could be, held open by Lord Nyax's thought. He just had to reach for her, and she was there, locked in as much confusion and pain as he.

She had no answer for him. He reached for Tahiri and found her to be identically immobile.
He felt Lord Nyax grow impatient, then angry, and Lord Nyax expressed his anger through pain. Luke felt his fingers and toes, hands and feet, shins and forearms explode. He fell, writhing, then stared in amazement as he realized that his limbs were still attached-the pain was real, but no injury had caused it. He could feel Mara's pain, feel Tahiri's.
There was something different about Tahiri's. He looked over to where she lay.
She was rolling to her stomach, forcing her way to her feet. Off-balance, weaving as she stood, she nevertheless managed to pick up her lightsaber and ignite it. She looked at Nyax, anger blazing in her eyes. "I know something about pain you don't," she said. "Pain drowns other people. I just swim in it." She took a step toward her tormenter.

Luke could feel Nyax's anger, his moment of confusion. And though Luke couldn't move, he could act. He reached out through the Force and grabbed the stone that Nyax had tried to use against him moments earlier. He jerked it toward his enemy.
And though he was weakened by pain, by distraction, it flew those few meters and slammed into Nyax's back, driving him forward, slamming him off his feet.
Tahiri leapt forward, bringing her lightsaber down in an all-out attack. Nyax managed to get one of his arm-blades up to intercept it, then kicked out, shoving off against a pile of rubble. He slid away from Tahiri, and the slide continued well past the point that it should, carrying him clear of her... but he left skin and blood behind on rubble he crossed.
Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.
This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made.
But deep beneath the analysis was a stream of emotion, an awareness of their son Ben, of what he would be if Nyax could find him and shape him.
Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.
They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.
Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.
Then all four of them felt the wall break. Whatever was beyond it roared forth to sweep them away.”

As you see his mind domination is arguably the strongest in the mythos. It took combined effort of three unordinary Jedi to resist him. And that his superior power allowed him to surpass experienced Luke with his untrained combat. Also, from these quotes you can see that in no way Luke is dispirited or Force tired.

Originally posted by Arhael
I never argued that he is more powerful, than Sidious or his equal, did I?

I think you are overestimating how Marek compares to Sidious. He isn't nearly his equal. As the quote says, he's simply no match for him. This can be seen in the darkside ending where Sidious takes him down with insulting ease. Even his suicide explosion did nothing more than singe Sidious' robes.

I've been flipping through Starkiller-related media for the past few days and the power he exhibits between both games (and their supplement material) is immense:

For example, during the Battle of Kamino, he assumes command of the mortally injured Nebulon-B frigate Salvation, intending to use it as a missile in a last ditch attempt to pierce the Imperial blockade and energy shields that surround the planet. This leads him to climb out onto the outer hull of the ship, conjuring a Force shields to protect him from the perils of atmospheric reentry while simultaneously holding, maintaining, and maneuvering the 300-meter warship:

The Force Unleashed II
He found a maintenance ladder leading to an air lock and leapt up it in two bounds, blowing the inner hatch as he came. He could feel a wild drumming from the far side of the outer door. The ship was moving so fast now that unexposed flesh wouldn't last a microsecond. He would have to rely on a Force shield to keep him safe. A single lapse in concentration would be the end of him.

The Force Unleashed II
This was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of heat he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead-a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight.

The Force Unleashed II
He raised his hands and spread his fingers wide. His eyes closed tightly against the fiery brightness of the plasma. With each bucking and shaking of the ship beneath him, he encouraged himself to ride with it instead of fighting it. He was part of the ship, not a passenger. He was the ship, not a reckless pilot guiding it to destruction.

In the same way that he could feel his fingers and roes, his mind seeped outward into the metal and plastoid of the frigate, until every joint and weld, every porthole and deck became part of his sense of being. There was no line anymore between Starkiller and the Salvation. They were one and the same being, from the perspective of the Force.

He raised his right arm, and the ship followed the movement, listing slowly and heavily to starboard. Some of the headlong shuddering faded, as though it were grateful to have someone at the helm again. Even the wind's shrieking seemed to ebb.

^ Simultaneously, he creates a Force shield that protects him from heat comparable to a star, uses the Force to perceive a target he cannot see, and uses the Force to telekinetically hold and guide the frigate—while, of course, rooting himself in place so as to avoid being ripped off the ship.

The Force Unleashed II
The frigate slammed into the clouds with a rearing sound. At that speed, individual droplets of water hit like thermal detonators.

^ Must absorb the damage of raindrops hitting with force comparable to thermal detonators.

The Force Unleashed II
With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him-and blew it into a billion pieces.

^ When he pierces the cloud layer, Starkiller sees that Vader is standing between him and the shield generator he'd targeted—with Juno. Frantic and "with just seconds" remaining before the Salvation's fore section strikes, Starkiller uses the Force to obliterate it before collision. Further corroboration from Juno's perspective:

The Force Unleashed II
The ship was almost upon them when the figure brought his hands down in a fierce, pounding motion, and the last solid fragment of the Salivation exploded into fiery pieces.

The Force Unleashed II
Juno coughed and wished she could wipe her eyes clear of ash. Her ship had blown itself practically to atoms; she had seen it happen, right in front of her. There was no chance at all that Starkiller could have survived. He had been riding right on top of it.

That bastard sandbox creation is incredible.whip

Should we consider TUF an unrelastic potrayal of force powers and how powerful the characters really were maybe? Because shouldn't TSA realistically owned the hell out of Sidious and Vader in the two games, not to mention the Jedi he fights throughout, considering the syuff he does, yet its a lot closer than it should be.

"You've heard of "beer belly," but did you know that beer itself doesn't make you fat? Beer is relatively low in calories and makes you urinate more, so the calories don't build up, making it hard to get fat. Yet, since sugar is required to break down alcohol and beer foam makes you hungrier... When these things combine, you get the munchies and...Voila! Beer belly!"

DRP
Should we consider TUF an unrelastic potrayal of force powers

Sure, along with Nihilius, Abeloth, Kun, DE!Sidious, Plagueis, NJO!Luke, etc.

I'm surprised Bane isn't in that list. 😛

That kind of power is well beyond what we see of Bane.

Plagueis's?

Bane defeated him in Le thread.

But the others are all in different timelines so it is possible that they were really were that powerful. Whereas TAS not only shares timeline with someone like Vader but only puts up close fight against him.

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." - Shakespeare

Originally posted by heitoi_which
That kind of power is well beyond what we see of Bane.

Ah, you mean Plag's MC Manipulation.

Mm, yes. True that.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Plagueis's?

Bane defeated him in Le thread.

Didn't realize Le thread is canon.

DRP
But the others are all in different timelines so it is possible that they were really were that powerful. Whereas TAS not only shares timeline with someone like Vader but only puts up close fight against him.

So Force Users are immensely powerful before the movies and after, but not during? When some of the most naturally talented Force Users are born in that era, including Anakin, whose raw power in the Force canonically exceeds anyone elses? Nah, sounds stupid.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Ah, you mean Plag's MC Manipulation.

Mm, yes. True that.

No, I'm referring to Starkiller's feat above.

Originally posted by heitoi_which
No, I'm referring to Starkiller's feat above.

Right, and how you said his feats, like those of the folks you listed, along with Plagueis, have silly powers that are above Bane's.

But Anakin did not even grow to 27 years of age before he lost most of his midi-chlorians at Mustafar, and yeh maybe the other eras were just more powerful? Plus people like Nihilus not even product of their era but of unique circumtsnaces.

"If my films make one more person miserable, I'll feel I have done my job." - Woody Allen