Originally posted by Arhael
The point why I said that is because Abeloth's power surpassed Sith by far, so she bent their will and dominated. Same for Vitiate, his power surpassed any Sith by far, so he, also, bent their will and dominated. Long ago you said yourself that their capabilities aren't that different. In any case they both were intelligent in their own right. The difference is that Vitiate was much more careful. And he was clever enough not to participate in that hopeless Hyperspace war. He preferred hiding in his quarters and make others do the job. While Abeloth was actively participating herself, plotting various conspiracies and infiltrating governments. Like she turned Falanacy against Skywalkers. Influenced Empire to vote for Daala. Influenced republic to vote for her. Also, she were well aware of her political weakness, so she didn't take over bodies of Wynn Dorvan and Daala and used them instead.In any case fohh this intelligence topic. There is more interesting thread "Primer of Emperor", which rises a few interesting and debatable theories.
2. This is good analysis. 🙂
3. Abeloth lack in fighting discipline. She is careless and can overexert herself, which she did. In comparison, Vitiate is much more calculative and clever.
Originally posted by Arhael
To your nonsense logic my arguments will never make sense. I told you already, stop this useless comments, it is insulting and doesn't help.
Originally posted by Arhael
On video he used Force lightning until every Jedi fell. Prove that he or any known character in entire EU could utilize force lightning and mind domination simultaneously. In book Vitiate never showed that.
However, we do get a hint later on:
00:22 - 00:40
Originally posted by Arhael
Ye. That's really great argument. Vitiate that never faced someone at least as nearly as powerful as himself cannot be surprised. And Marek with his TK capable to move star destroyers is nothing surprising.
Marek controlled the movements of a Star Destroyer for a while with full concentration on it. Such concentration requires extreme clarity in mind which is possible in a meditative state.
Powerful force wielders can do amazing things while meditating. It allows them to concentrate fully on a single purpose and project power in such a manner that seems impossible otherwise.
For example when Luke Skywalker decided to manipulate a black hole, he sat down and opened his mind fully towards it - blocking all other thoughts. He fully concentrated on this purpose.
Combat situation is a very different thing. Lot of things are going in the mind.
Originally posted by Arhael
Listen, your argument about Satele Shan becoming mind dominated is opinion as well. Whatever you say, you cannot prove that she is defenseless against mind domination.
Originally posted by Arhael
So now you try to prove your point with non-canon material. 👆This fact was valid until Palpatine had to fight Marek. When they started fighting, there was clear intention of him killing Marek. Good luck with proving that Palpatine was holding back in fight with Marek 👆.
What you have stated is not necessary. Malak convinced Bastilla to embrace the dark side with his powers. Sidious had similar plan. Major hint is that when Marek died, Sidious was not happy.
And it has been explicitly stated in this source that Marek was no match for the Emperor.
Get it?
Originally posted by Arhael
Where your refusals will get you? There are facts playing in both favors.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is not contradiction. First statement is realistic analysis that both Satele and Marek might be mind dominated as well as resist it. Second statement is my own opinion as facts playing in my favor are enough to convince me personally.
Originally posted by Arhael
Your most logical assessment made you believe that Vitiate could utilize Force lightning and mind domination simultaneously 😄 And there is nothing logical in trying to prove that Vitiate pawns and mind dominates every single most powerful Jedi in the EU.
I don't like either of these characters. And I already told you to stop talking this kind of shit. Yet, you continue doing exactly that, it is unnecessary provocation.
If Vitiate can mind dominate 100 Sith Lords simultaneously, he has good chance against any single individual.
Originally posted by Arhael
Either Satele or Marek alone have a chance against Vitiate like it or not. There are plenty of facts supporting both your and my opinions. You can't win it.
Originally posted by Arhael
Luke is one of the most powerful users known.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate, also, had favorable circumstances, when he dominated Revan and Malak.
Originally posted by Arhael
And unlike Revan and Malak Luke wasn't caught off guard by surprise. And Palpatine didn't need to render him unconscious like in the case with Jedi strike team.
Vitiate stands apart from all other known Sith when it comes to mental powers. It is futile excercise to compare him in this aspect with any other Sith.
Originally posted by Arhael
Sure, flooring Palpatine is nothing special...
This is from the novelization:
Murdering Darth Vader would accomplish nothing. Saving his friends might change the course of history.
Seen in that light, the decision was surprisingly easy.
A hail of shattered transparisteel and debris drove the Emperor back from Kota, breaking his concentration and freeing the Jedi Master from the fatal web of energy. Smoking and weak, Kota fell away and was caught by Garm Bel Iblis. The apprentice tossed them the comlink and advanced on Palpatine.
"Good," hissed the Emperor, his claw-like hands upraised between them like a weak old man fending off an attacker. Stumbling, he fell to his knees. "Yes." He looked up at the apprentice. "You were destined to destroy me. Do it! Give in to your hatred!"
The apprentice stood over him for a moment with his lightsaber upraised. Its aqua light reflected in the eyes of the galaxy's Emperor as though it was the last thing he would ever see.
With a snap, the apprentice extinguished the blade and lowered his arm.
Kota limped up behind him and put a hand on his shoulder. "That's it, boy," he said with rough pride. "He's beaten. Let it go."
The sound of engines from above distracted them both. They looked up to see the Rogue Shadow descending over the shattered dome, lights flashing on and off to attract their attention. Its repulsors dispelled the last of the smoke and sent the apprentice's tattered cape whipping around his legs.
Juno, he thought. At last, everything is going to be all right.
"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."
Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.
Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.
The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.
"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"
The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.
Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.
A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.
"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.
He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.
Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.
The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.
Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.
Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.
Together, unspeaking, they searched the rubble.
When they found what they were looking for, neither of them looked any happier for it.
"He is dead," the Dark Lord intoned, gazing dispassionately at the body at their feet.
This moment, the apprentice thought. I saw this!
"Then he is now more powerful than ever." The Emperor glanced up, watching sourly as the Rogue Shadow sped away into the busy sky. "He was meant to root out the Rebels, not give them hope. His sacrifice will only inspire them."
"But now we know who they are, my Master. I will hunt them down and destroy them, as you always intended-starting with the traitor Bail Organa."
The Emperor waved him silent and turned to walk away. "Patience, Lord Vader. Far better to destroy a man's hope first. Or that of someone close to him ..."
----------------------------------
Now point out to me that where did Marek floored Sidious?
Originally posted by Arhael
Never argued against that.
Originally posted by Arhael
If he started practicing his mind domination from 6 year old, then 4 years is enough time to reach your power levels.
Originally posted by Arhael
WHAT? It was ritual performed with their participation. In no way it was Vitiate vs 100 Sith.
"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."
I will ask you again! Do you suffer from short-term memory loss?
Those Sith Lords were not willing participants. They were made to.
Originally posted by Arhael
And again JK and his comrades were floored with Force lightning. Video proves it. And with mental guard down it's not a big deal to dominate someone.
Originally posted by Arhael
you keep lowballing Luke's intelligence and praise Vitiate's.
For Vitiate, Palpatine is a decent analogy. In fact, his strategy to use Voices is very impressive. Details below.
Originally posted by Arhael
Luke spent years of training in lightsaber combat and in the Force.
Originally posted by Arhael
Many times faced more powerful foes.
Originally posted by Arhael
Many times he faced situations, where odds were against him.
Originally posted by Arhael
Many times he had to somehow outwit opponents.
Originally posted by Arhael
Many times he engaged against multiple opponents.
Originally posted by Arhael
Lightsaber combat for instance requires intelligence everytime, it's not as simple as playing baseball.
Originally posted by Arhael
He always had to make self assessment, mainain his calm, think about right approach. Seek help from others and being able to coordinate with them in combat is, also, part of intelligence.
Yes! Their are some events in which Luke have made good judgements and have planned in advance. However, my point is that he is not among the most intelligent and calculative individuals in the mythos. He is above average but not exceptional. Mara and Caedus were much more intelligent then him. And their are more examples.
Originally posted by Arhael
He never needed to learn lightsaber combat at all.
However, lighsaber dueling is not a prerequisite to determine the intelligence of any individual.
Originally posted by Arhael
His power alone compensated everything.
Originally posted by Arhael
Never had to try to outwit opponent in combat. His superior power allowed him in all cases simply mind dominate opponents without need to fight. A few times, when mind domination didn't work he used lightning, which is another way to overpower opponent without need to come up with anything clever.
Dooku for example used lightning intelligently in CW, he used lightning at the right moment catching Ventress and Anakin off guard because otherwise they would have blocked it with lightsaber. Same for Sidious, he caught Yoda off guard in combat, so Yoda got disarmed and had to absorb with bare hands.
In Vitiate's case he simply got pissed and started gathering power giving Revan time to gether his powers as well. There is nothing clever in that and this is NOT intelligent way of handling someone. Vitiate's power was such that while child without need to learn any skills he utilized mind domination alone. So you call 6 year old child intelligent and skilled combatant?Even, if Luke didn't need intelligence as much as some others, he still needed it >>>> than Vitiate because Vitiate's power was >>>> than Luke's. There is not single example of Vitiate trying to outwit opponent because his superior power always allowed him to overpower them (except JK).
Of course, Vitiate is immensely powerful. But does this means that he never plans and is not calculative?
In many of his duels, he did his homework in advance and controlled the outcomes. This is why he has been so successful in the mythos. Of course, he is not infallible. No one is.
Read this;
This datacron holds unheard of power and knowledge collected by an ancient race. You access its power and discover writings which are clearly only one small piece of a massive galactic history: With the end of the Great Hyperspace War, the Republic and the Jedi began to purge the remnants of the Sith Empire–obliterating its power centers, destroying its dark teachings and leaving its people without a clear leader. The Supreme Chancellor and his allies argued that this was not a battle against the Empire’s citizenry, but a necessary step to free the Sith from corruption. The survivors among the Sith–and they were few, as famine, disease and infighting claimed those who did not continue to face down the Republic–saw it as a deathblow to their culture. But a savior arose: The man who would one day become Emperor of the Sith had weathered the war with a number of trusted followers. No record of the Sith Emperor’s original identity has survived, but he was quickly accepted as the leader of the almost-shattered Sith Empire. Although the Republic had temporarily retreated from the Horuset system, the Sith Emperor knew that Korriban would not be safe for long. While the few survivors emerged from their shelters in the deserts and shattered tombs, the Sith Emperor began to devise a plan, centuries in the execution, that would ensure the survival of the Sith and the eventual annihilation of the Republic.
And this;
For centuries, the Emperor’s Voice has delivered the Sith leader’s commandments to his servants. In fact, to converse with the Emperor’s Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice’s body. Although the audible voice never changes, the physical individual who does the speaking has assumed many forms–various accounts describe the Emperor’s Voice as anyone from a young human female to an elderly full-blooded Sith male. Regardless of physical appearance, however, the Emperor’s Voice can always be identified by its emotionless, precise and controlled manner of speaking. Some have privately described conversations with this entity as extremely disturbing; there is often the sense that the Emperor’s Voice is listening to another conversation even when he or she is speaking.
This second part is very very relevant to Vitiate's intelligence. He adopted this strategy to keep his original body out of harms way. He understood that disagreements will be expected on occasions and fights may ensue. In many of his duels, Vitiate was fighting through a Voice. This is very impressive strategy and Vitiate has played safe in this manner.
Vitiate's power and intelligence complement each other in amazing fashion.
Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth was mortal human that gained power by bathing in Pool of Knowledge and Font of Power. Daughter bathed in Pool of Knowledge only. Talon did that as well and in books it was stated that he was becoming another Abeloth.
Originally posted by Arhael
No need to be ignorant and discard arguments not playing in favor of your opinion.
Originally posted by Arhael
I merely respond to your insult with insult. No more, no less.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yoda fell down unable to even slow his fall. Koro Zill just collapsed face first. Exhausted is exhausted whether it is some ritual or fight.
As an analogy: what may have exhausted Yoda may not have exhausted Luke.
You are not in the position to judge me. When any argument from you does make sense, I acknowledge it openly. You do not have such courtesy either.Agreed. But you provoked me by your belittling phrases. It's human nature to respond insult with insult.
Like I said, ask Drew. He is in a better position to clarify this.In other words you cannot prove that Vitiate could dominate worthy opponent without element of surprise during combat.However, we do get a hint later on:
Combat situation is a very different thing. Lot of things are going in the mind.Indeed. The first thing is how Marek Force blasts Palpatine both in game and comic book. See images below.
Useless rant. Satele was not an amateur when she made that decision.There is no prove she was defenseless against Vitiate, she never faced him. Useless of you trying to prove non-provable.
An intelligent person in your place would have understood my point in this regard.Another insult. See above.
I was expecting too much from you, it seems.
What you have stated is not necessary. Malak convinced Bastilla to embrace the dark side with his powers. Sidious had similar plan. Major hint is that when Marek died, Sidious was not happy.Malak had Bastilla restrained and tortured her. Major fact is that Palpatine unleash full power of his lightning on Marek and he still could resist it, analyse surroundings and sacrifice himself by creating explosion. (I don't have source, wookieepedia claims that it was him, who created explosion to save others, tell me, if I am wrong).
Facts are not playing in your favor. You are refusing to accept important clues from canonical materials that do no favor your opinion.Really?
I work with available clues and evidence at hand. And my arguments are precise and clear.So am I. And to me your arguments are often absurd but our opinions about each other and self-evaluation shouldn't matter in any case.
If Vitiate can mind dominate 100 Sith Lords simultaneously, he has good chance against any single individual.That's a bold claim.
Really? Vitiate was confident enough to handle Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously. Now you do the math.Ok, here is my math. Vitiate did not handle them simultaneously. He fought Revan 1x1. After electrocution Revan was done, so Vitiate never faced all thee simultaneously. Meetra and Scourge couldn't handle even Nyriss.
In what sense? Vitiate was outnumbered here.Far superior power. Darkside nexus. Own field. And as you said earlier element of surprise.
Palpatine managed to break Luke after defeating him in combat. At that moment, Luke lost hope. However, the same palpatine could not break Leia who was much weaker then Luke. So what was the issue in this case?When did Palpatine try to mind dominate Leia? 😉
Vitiate stands apart from all other known Sith when it comes to mental powers. It is futile excercise to compare him in this aspect with any other Sith.
What?This is from the novelization:
Comic can be considered short cut of novel. Yet, even there Marek is shown pounding Palpatine like in game. Both novel and comic are based on game. Either authors have lack of agreement in what happened or you simply skipped part of text unsuitable to your cause.
For Vitiate, Palpatine is a decent analogy. In fact, his strategy to use Voices is very impressive. Details below.It's getting repetitive. Ones again, I am talking about need of intelligence in combat. In combat he overpowers everyone. There is nothing intelligent in that.
No.That's getting ridiculous. I am not talking about raw potential. Prior DE Luke was not in his prime and did meet more powerful and knowledgeable opponents that could out skill, overpower or Force blast to death him. Datomiri witches is one example. Joruus C'Baot is another and most notable example. Even post DE we have Lord Nyax and Unu'Thul.
So? Unlike Vitiate he could not mind dominate opponents. Did not have Force lightning that could overwhelm anyone. There are surprisingly few examples, where he subdued someone with the Force, he always had to rely on more clever things. And most important, unlike Vitiate he did meed more powerful opponents, to Vitiate it never happened and will not.
He got help many times.
No.I already proved otherwise. However, you didn't. All you gave is his irrelevant to combat intelligence. In combat he stays in one place and opponent can't do a thing against him because he is way more powerful. Analogy is Sidious vs RotJ Luke, can we conclude on this example that Palpatine was more intelligent combatant? No.
It is not necessary to be a Jedi or Sith to be a very capable duelist.And?
Yes! Their are some events in which Luke have made good judgements and have planned in advance. However...And that is not what I am trying to prove. Vitiate's intelligence in combat is my focus.
You don't know this. He created lightsaber wielding illusions in combat. He also picked up Revan's lightsaber to use it against him. Yes! We do not know that how much he knows about lightsaber dueling.I concede. Vitiate couldn't survive without lightsaber because during combat his opponents were powerful enough to resist his Force attacks. 👆
However, lighsaber dueling is not a prerequisite to determine the intelligence of any individual.How many situations would Luke survive without lightsaber? Almost none. Why? Because power alone wasn't enough for him to defeat opponents. He couldn't overpower with Force opponents, the way Vitiate could. The fact that Vitiate didn't need one proves that superior power alone gives him victory.
This is the situation with Luke. He is the most prominent gary-stu of Star Wars.More prominent, than Vitiate? Don't remember him subduing all his opponents. Even, when he can, he prefers harder way.
Of course, Vitiate is immensely powerful. But does this means that he never plans and is not calculative?Again. It is intelligence in general. I am talking about combat specifically.In many of his duels, he did his homework in advance and controlled the outcomes. This is why he has been so successful in the mythos. Of course, he is not infallible. No one is.
Read this;Irrelevant to combat.
This second part is very very relevant to Vitiate's intelligence. He adopted this strategy to keep his original body out of harms way. He understood that disagreements will be expected on occasions and fights may ensue. In many of his duels, Vitiate was fighting through a Voice. This is very impressive strategy and Vitiate has played safe in this manner.Again. This is not combat intelligence. And the fact that his Voice subdued Jedi strike team with wave of a hand doesn't help your cause. He didn't fight any worthy opponents that could resist his powers, therefore, he didn't need to try to outwit/outskill them in combat.
Which Talon is this? I know about Darth Talon who lived during the time of Cade Skywalker.Obviously not from Cade era. Sarasu Taalon. Yes, one a was missing but there was only one Sith that bathed in Pool of Knowledge, thought, you are aware of those events.
You should ponder over your advice actually.You should stop saying "you should" and "I advice" like I am a kid, it is insulting.Actually you do not want to pay attention to your mistakes.
This is not so simple.Indeed, Vitiate could not get exhausted. Even galaxy level ritual only weakened him. Also, "this is not so simple" doesn't support your cause. And again. Scourge confirms that JK gave him time to gather power, so "weakened" topic is irrelevant.As an analogy: what may have exhausted Yoda may not have exhausted Luke.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, mind dominated everyone in vicinity is indeed genius. 👆
Originally posted by Arhael
Incorrect. He didn't fight Lord Dramath. He mind dominated him before any fight could start.
Originally posted by Arhael
How many kids had capability to mind dominate Sith Lords?
Originally posted by Arhael
Incorrect. He used mental powers before any combat could start.
Originally posted by Arhael
There is no example of him using mind domination in the middle of a fight. So, my point is valid.
1. Remember his second encounter with Revan?
2. Remember his encounter with the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga?
Originally posted by Arhael
Even, if with no mind domination, he still overpowers with lightning and, even if he doesn't use lightning and opponent get close, he still overpowers with TK. But since he does have mind domination, he doesn't let them fight at all. In any case he is able to overpower without need to come up with anything clever.
Originally posted by Arhael
It reflects on intelligence but not intelligence in combat.
Originally posted by Arhael
Stick your advice to your ass.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not arguing against his intelligence in general. You discard most Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat. There was no combat between him and Revan and Malak. Before fight could start he crushed their will. No fight = no intelligence in combat.
And I do not discard Luke's feats. Do not make baseless assumptions about me.
Originally posted by Arhael
Was Luke worthy opponent at that point for any need to come up with something intelligent to kill him? No. Palpatine did not need intelligence to kill Luke.
However, if we look at fights with worthy opponents like Yoda, Windu, Marek and DE Luke, then what happened? Correct, he had to use lightsaber, positional advantages and surroundings. It wasn't even remotely as simple as standing in one place like a dummy, mind dominate and, if failed, electrocute. Vitiate didn't have combat skills. He had extremely powerful abilities that he could unleash at any time and that no one could defend against.
Originally posted by Arhael
Specify. During the first fight he thought that he fought Luke, thank's to Luke's illusions mastery. In second fight he desperately tried to kill her as his daughter was in danger, then she crippled his leg and realizing that any attempts with one working leg and arm were futile, he stopped fighting to send mental warning.
Originally posted by Arhael
"Entire performance" is not a good evidence, it doesn't have any measurement to make even relative comparisons.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, whatever advantage Malak had, it still does not equate to Palpatine.
Originally posted by Arhael
Nyriss did not incinerate anyone to ashes with her lightning.
Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, her lightning was comfortably absorbed the same way as Yoda absorbed Dooku's.
Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku's lightning was potent enough to incapacitate Anakin and witches within mere seconds. Even close to RotS post Mortis Anakin was struggling to recover after his lightning attack.
Originally posted by Arhael
I, also, point out that Vitiate's lightning didn't turn to ashes Revan
Originally posted by Arhael
and Jedi strike team either
Originally posted by Arhael
and his lightning was described as "infinitely" more powerful, than hers, which means that her lightning was much weaker.
Originally posted by Arhael
I advice you the same thing.
He did not mind dominated everybody. Your claim is baseless.I was talking in general, refering specifically to cases, when somebody oposed him. He mind dominated, when he wanted, some children like toys, he liked mind dominating.
And you know this how?
How many kids planned their rise to power?There is nothing specifically stating that he planned to rise power. Only that he was mind dominating people and that phanatics arose idolizing him. And remember that it was father that came to him, he didn't invite him. And he didn't try to rule Nathema, it was Ragnos' initiative.
You are wrong. Vitiate typically uses his mental powers when he expects a fight or plans to use an opponent.
1. Remember his second encounter with Revan?2. Remember his encounter with the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga?
This is lame argument. Of course, Vitiate puts his talents to use in duels. When things will not work in favor, then he will think of something clever. Oh wait! He already has a solution: Fight with a Voice. Nice.So using Voices improves his chances of wining? 😄 In other words, if less powerful opponent has enough strength to resist his Force attacks, he has nothing clever to come up with to outwit or outskill his opponent in order to win, like in case with JK. You only enforced my point by mentioning Voices.
Even if you think so, this example proves that Vitiate plans his moves first.Intelligent move would be to set up a trap with assassins and many other possibile traps. Instead he allows them to come and simply overpowers. Why? Because his superior power allowes.
Whether you consider this combat or not, it was a smart move. Controlling the outcome is a strong indication of intelligence.And I do not discard Luke's feats. Do not make baseless assumptions about me.
So is this Vitiate's fault? How about using Voices for combat purposes? Very good indication of his intelligence.Yes it is. If he learned lightsaber and hand-to-hand combat and was trying to use the right moment to use his Force powers cleverly to catch opponent off guard, then JK chances would be much much lower.
He could take her out with a poison dart. He didn't.What? Give me a quote, where he took out poison dart but couldn't force himself to use it because of love for his sister. Or atleast that he was thinking about it.
Hint: Malak's conversations with his commander on Star Forge about Revan's advances.So all you have is a couple of vague statements with no real measurment for comparison, which is enough for you to believe that Revan can compare to Marek.Malak had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from the chained Jedi captives. He was very hard to defeat on Star Forge.
Originally posted by Arhael
Agreed. But you provoked me by your belittling phrases. It's human nature to respond insult with insult.
Originally posted by Arhael
In other words you cannot prove that Vitiate could dominate worthy opponent without element of surprise during combat.
In addition, here is revelation from Drew Karpyshyn himself:
"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. The first thing is how Marek Force blasts Palpatine both in game and comic book. See images below.
Sidious was playing the same trick with Marek that he did with Luke later on. He was pretending to be helpless and weak and wanted Marek to give in to his hatred. Look at his face expression after the Force push. Also, focus on his comments at this moment.
Originally posted by Arhael
There is no prove she was defenseless against Vitiate, she never faced him. Useless of you trying to prove non-provable.
Originally posted by Arhael
Malak had Bastilla restrained and tortured her. Major fact is that Palpatine unleash full power of his lightning on Marek and he still could resist it, analyse surroundings and sacrifice himself by creating explosion. (I don't have source, wookieepedia claims that it was him, who created explosion to save others, tell me, if I am wrong).
Originally posted by Arhael
Really?
Facts:
Marek defeated Vader and matched Palpatine in Force struggle.
Stale Shan was wisely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time. And overpowered Malgus, who arguably second in power only to Vitiate.
Vitiate: lost to JK.
JK: no facts suggesting that he is above Satele or Marek.
Originally posted by Arhael
So am I. And to me your arguments are often absurd but our opinions about each other and self-evaluation shouldn't matter in any case.
Originally posted by Arhael
They did not come to fight, they came for help.
They were broken, they feared for their life.
Originally posted by Arhael
Influencing and convincing person that needs help and inspiration during conversation i much easier, than influencing person that has intent to kill you, has all defenses up and uses offensive powers against you.
Those 100 Sith Lords did not even trusted each other, let alone Vitiate. However, they were curious about Vitiate's offer.
Originally posted by Arhael
By the time of ritual they all participated.
Originally posted by Arhael
Not facts:
He mind dominated them simultaneously. He could have done dominating session with each one at a time.
They all were mind dominated.
Any of them were at lest remotely as powerful as Vitiate.
"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."
Seems like you are color blind. I have to highlight the statements for you again and again. And then you say that I insult you.
Originally posted by Arhael
Nyriss' knowledge is correct and not exaggerated.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, here is my math. Vitiate did not handle them simultaneously. He fought Revan 1x1. After electrocution Revan was done, so Vitiate never faced all thee simultaneously. Meetra and Scourge couldn't handle even Nyriss.
Even if Meetra and Scourge could not handle Nyriss, they should not be underestimated still. Both of them have history against very dangerous Sith Lords.
Originally posted by Arhael
Far superior power. Darkside nexus. Own field. And as you said earlier element of surprise.
Originally posted by Arhael
When did Palpatine try to mind dominate Leia? 😉
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Leia had confidence of a pregnant mother. You can't counter it. 😄
Originally posted by Arhael
Mind domination indeed came to Vitiate naturally and he has much more examples of its demonstration. But Palpatine's examples of having Luke and Kam Solusar mind dominated are no less impressive. Palpatine had much more joy in making his victims accept darkside instead of simply crushing their will, here is the difference.
Originally posted by ArhaelComic can be considered short cut of novel. Yet, even there Marek is shown pounding Palpatine like in game. Both novel and comic are based on game. Either authors have lack of agreement in what happened or you simply skipped part of text unsuitable to your cause.
And during the so-called pounding part, Palpatine was playing tricks with Marek in the same manner as he did with Luke. When Palpatine supposedly became serious, Marek could not stop him.
Originally posted by Arhael
It's getting repetitive. Ones again, I am talking about need of intelligence in combat. In combat he overpowers everyone. There is nothing intelligent in that.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's getting ridiculous. I am not talking about raw potential. Prior DE Luke was not in his prime and did meet more powerful and knowledgeable opponents that could out skill, overpower or Force blast to death him.
Originally posted by Arhael
Datomiri witches is one example. Joruus C'Baot is another and most notable example.
Originally posted by Arhael
Even post DE we have Lord Nyax and Unu'Thul.
Against Unu'Thul, Luke did handled his mental attacks intelligently; using his past history with Unu'Thul against him. But the duel itself turned out to be a joke.
Originally posted by Arhael
So? Unlike Vitiate he could not mind dominate opponents. Did not have Force lightning that could overwhelm anyone. There are surprisingly few examples, where he subdued someone with the Force, he always had to rely on more clever things. And most important, unlike Vitiate he did meed more powerful opponents, to Vitiate it never happened and will not.
Originally posted by Arhael
I already proved otherwise. However, you didn't. All you gave is his irrelevant to combat intelligence. In combat he stays in one place and opponent can't do a thing against him because he is way more powerful. Analogy is Sidious vs RotJ Luke, can we conclude on this example that Palpatine was more intelligent combatant? No.
Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.
Regarding Palpatines's analogy:
Why not? Palpatine planned the whole thing. He used Luke's father against him. When this plan did not work, he unleashed his powers on him. Luke was simply helpless and Palpatine was in control of everything until of course Vader turned against him. Yes, Palpatine underestimated the power of love in this case.
Originally posted by Arhael
And?
Originally posted by Arhael
And that is not what I am trying to prove. Vitiate's intelligence in combat is my focus.
Originally posted by Arhael
I concede. Vitiate couldn't survive without lightsaber because during combat his opponents were powerful enough to resist his Force attacks. 👆
Originally posted by Arhael
How many situations would Luke survive without lightsaber? Almost none. Why? Because power alone wasn't enough for him to defeat opponents. He couldn't overpower with Force opponents, the way Vitiate could. The fact that Vitiate didn't need one proves that superior power alone gives him victory.
His plan: let them come to you.
His preparation for a fight: Sit down on his throne and gather power.
His action: overpower.
Don't recall it to be at least remotely as easy for Luke.
Originally posted by Arhael
More prominent, than Vitiate? Don't remember him subduing all his opponents. Even, when he can, he prefers harder way.
Originally posted by Arhael
Again. It is intelligence in general. I am talking about combat specifically.
Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.
Originally posted by Arhael
Irrelevant to combat.
Originally posted by Arhael
Again. This is not combat intelligence. And the fact that his Voice subdued Jedi strike team with wave of a hand doesn't help your cause. He didn't fight any worthy opponents that could resist his powers, therefore, he didn't need to try to outwit/outskill them in combat.
Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously not from Cade era. Sarasu Taalon. Yes, one a was missing but there was only one Sith that bathed in Pool of Knowledge, thought, you are aware of those events.
Originally posted by Arhael
You should stop saying "you should" and "I advice" like I am a kid, it is insulting.
Indeed, my mistake answering with insults to your insults.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, Vitiate could not get exhausted. Even galaxy level ritual only weakened him. Also, "this is not so simple" doesn't support your cause. And again. Scourge confirms that JK gave him time to gather power, so "weakened" topic is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Arhael
I was talking in general, refering specifically to cases, when somebody oposed him. He mind dominated, when he wanted, some children like toys, he liked mind dominating.
You need to focus on the crux of the matters. Only then you will be able to make decent evaluations.
Originally posted by Arhael
From Nyriss' story. She stated that it drew his attention. That he came to evaluate his son, not to fight. In any case the only thing child could do is overpower his father as he had no combat experience and never encountered another Force user before. If father could resist his mental attack, there would be no Vitiate.
Lord Dramath intended to judge the child's power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying.
Yes! If Lord Dramath had acted earlier, he may have had a chance. But when he decided to face Vitiate, it was too late. And not to forget, that Vitiate knew about his affair with his mother and would have been angry.
Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing specifically stating that he planned to rise power. Only that he was mind dominating people and that phanatics arose idolizing him. And remember that it was father that came to him, he didn't invite him. And he didn't try to rule Nathema, it was Ragnos' initiative.
Vitiate had plans to compete for the throne and legitimize his rule;
It took Tenebrae three more years to gain control of the rest of Nathema. Dramath's firstborn son fled rather than face his formidable half brother, but other powerful Sith sought to seize the empty throne. All fell before the dark prodigy, and with each victory he grew more powerful and more ruthless.
At thirteen he presented himself to Marka Ragnos, the Lord of all Sith and the ruler of the Sith Council. Impressed by the teenager's ambition and power, Marka Ragnos granted him the title of Lord Vitiate. His position as ruler of Nathema officially recognized, Lord Vitiate returned to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side’s power.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which is the same as before any fight could start. Thanks for clarifying.
And I now have doubts about your intellect as well.
Originally posted by Arhael
With Revan he tried it at the beginning before Revan could try anything(Which is before any fight could start). But after he failed, he never tried it against Revan.
Originally posted by Arhael
With strike team he used Force lightning until all of them fell. No mind domination, Dun Moch at most.
This seems to be the course of action:
1- Dun Moch
2- FLS / Mental Powers in action
Originally posted by Arhael
So using Voices improves his chances of wining? 😄 In other words, if less powerful opponent has enough strength to resist his Force attacks, he has nothing clever to come up with to outwit or outskill his opponent in order to win, like in case with JK. You only enforced my point by mentioning Voices.
Originally posted by Arhael
Intelligent move would be to set up a trap with assassins and many other possibile traps. Instead he allows them to come and simply overpowers. Why? Because his superior power allowes.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not arguing against his inteligence in general.
About Luke you was giving "but" and "however" to each of Luke's feats.
Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that Unu'Thul is overhyped piece of shit was especialy hillarious.
Originally posted by Arhael
I merely gave examples of Luke's intelligence and no matter how many buts and howevers you give, those examples still prove that he can't rely on power alone in most cases.
Luke is capable of making good decisions during difficult situations but he have been outwitted by many opponents and is not among the most intelligent people of his time - nevermind whole of the mythos.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, it's pointless to compare Luke to Caedus, Mara or any character with "Sith thinking" because Sith will always make most cunning, effective, easy and intelligent choices, while Jedi put morals above anything, even if it might cost them life.
Originally posted by Arhael
Name at least one Jedi who is clearly above Luke in intelligence apart from Mara with assassin training and Jaina with her mandalorian training.
Heck, even the two poorly known Jedi who fought Malgus on Aldeeran were more clever then Luke.
And I am sure, their will be more.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes it is. If he learned lightsaber and hand-to-hand combat and was trying to use the right moment to use his Force powers cleverly to catch opponent off guard, then JK chances would be much much lower.
Voices is good indecation of his superior power and 1000 years knowledge. In terms of combat it doesn't improve his chances of winning whatsoever, therefore it is not combat intelligence.
Originally posted by Arhael
What? Give me a quote, where he took out poison dart but couldn't force himself to use it because of love for his sister. Or atleast that he was thinking about it.
Or at least prove that he had a dart in his pocket. I will accept even wookieepedia source!
Originally posted by Arhael
So all you have is a couple of vague statements with no real measurment for comparison, which is enough for you to believe that Revan can compare to Marek.
You might have min-maxed your character to smack Darth Malak down in seconds without breaking a sweat, but in a book that battle would have been a brutal, hard fought affair spread over multiple pages.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDAnd what is wrong in that? And Vitiate got help in conquering half of the republic, so do I lowballing him for that?
[B]And Luke got help in countering them. So?
Luke was more powerful then both.And this statement based on what exactly? You have some room to argue about UnuThul but your assumption about Lord Nyax is baseless and wrong, Luke was no match for him both in the Force and lightsaber combat. Luke, Mara and Tahiri fought him with lightsabers simultaneously and couldn't defeat him (And he was inexperienced combatant as evidenced by analysis of a Yuuzhan Vong). Also, Luke made intelligent move, he executed a kick into his hand, so one of his 8 lightsabers could kill him but a safe mechanism switched off that lightsaber.
Against Unu'Thul, Luke did handled his mental attacks intelligently; using his past history with Unu'Thul against him. But the duel itself turned out to be a joke.Compare experience in lightsaber combat of Luke and Rainar Thul and it will make perfect sense. And superior lightsaber combat is not example of superior power.
I disagree with your claim that he always had to rely on more clever things in post-DE periods. He did faced opponents who outsmarted him but not for long because once Luke would learn from his mistakes and his Gary-Stu powers would improve as well - he would destroy them all.Which shows his intelligence as there were more powerful opponents against him and he often was heavily outnumbered.
And Abeloth was a terrible fighter.
Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.Then take your words back about dismissing Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat, you started this thing. Or finally start giving examples of intelligence during combat as it is the only thing that matters in versus thread.
Ponder over your claim.There is nothing to ponder. It is sign of Jedi or Sith intelligence and common sense to use various tools and skills in order to increase their capabilities and chances of winning.
Spoiler:
Lightsaber combat is one of them
What is your point?That power alone gives him the win against any opponent. Power alone ensured his victory. You give same statement about Luke but it is multiple times more true about Vitiate.
Vitiate's fighting strategy is vastly different from that of Luke. Vitiate is not very fond of exerting himself with lightsabers. Even Palpatine learned this the hard way. Their is no fun in getting hands chopped off and replaced by mechanical ones. Vitiate focused on developing his powers and use innovative methods/planning to deal with his opponents. His philiosophy of combat is 'power and planning' centric. In contrast, Luke have massively focused on martial aspects of combat. However, with his gary-stu like powers, things became a lot easier for him.It is way easier to sit on a throne and with superior power alone make your foe bend to your knees. Things for Luke have never been even remotely as easy. If Luke is Gary Stue, then Vitiate is his grandfather or at least Bandon's brother.
Almost everybody favors him in hypothetical contests. Even you do. Most are of the opinion that he is immune to Force powers. Typical assumptions are that no one can mind dominate him, no one can injure him, no one can handle him with the Force. And he has a lightsaber so he wins by default. He has Godly status. Therefore, he is the most prominent Gary Stu of Star Wars mythos.Name at least single Sith/Jedi that could mind dominate Vitiate. Name at least one Sith with lightning as strong as his, even Palpatine was proven to have weaker lightning in another thread. Name at least one Jedi/Sith that could handle him with Force alone. Name at least one Sith, who could handle four strong Jedi as easily as him. Name at least one Sith that leaved over millennium. Typical assumption is that no one can handle him alone. Even you refuse to agree that Marek and Satele had at least some tiny chance of defeating him 1x1.
You attempted to portray Vitiate as a dumb shit. This is why I posted this bit of information.
Again! You fail to understand the big picture here. Vitiate plays safe by using Voices. He managed to put his original body out of harms way in this manner for a long long time. This is clear indication of his intelligence which is also relevant to combat situations because Vitiate typically uses Voices in combat situations. Another thing is that those Jedi were accustomed to Luke like philosophy of combat. Vitiate was unlike any foe they encountered before. Here was a Sith who with combination of his powers and intelligence, could do wonders.I know what voices are about. I, also, know that voices and intelligence demonstrated outside of combat has no weight in a Versus thread, where the only thing that matters is combat.
Vestara killed him. So how is Luke relevant in this case?He fought him more, than ones, when odds were against him. And at one point he Force blasted him into a wall, so he broke his leg. His intelligence was shown during those fights.
Then how should one be able to convince you to open your mind? Or you do not wish to?Simple. First, stop bringing up irrelevant topics to the thread like intelligence outside combat, Luke and Abeloth.
Scourge's opinion in this regard is questionable because we did not see any noticeable difference in Vitiate's combat prowess. Remember that Sith are known to manipulate and lie for their agendas.So is questionable opinion about Vitiate being weakened. Also, we don't see the fight, its game mechanics.
He developed his mental powers to such a degree that he could use them like a weapon.This is a sign of innovation.He gave importance to those applications (Force based and others) which could help him succeed in his plans rather easily. Others did not realized the immense potential of mental powers and focused more on sorcery and superweapons. Vitiate made much better decisions in comparisons. Clearly, he was very intelligent.You need to focus on the crux of the matters. Only then you will be able to make decent evaluations.
...to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed.Yes! If Lord Dramath had acted earlier, he may have had a chance. But when he decided to face Vitiate, it was too late. And not to forget, that Vitiate knew about his affair with his mother and would have been angry.
It took Tenebrae three more years to gain control of the rest of Nathema. Dramath's firstborn son fled rather than face his formidable half brother, but other powerful Sith sought to seize the empty throne. All fell before the dark prodigy, and with each victory he grew more powerful and more ruthless.At thirteen he presented himself to Marka Ragnos, the Lord of all Sith and the ruler of the Sith Council. Impressed by the teenager's ambition and power, Marka Ragnos granted him the title of Lord Vitiate. His position as ruler of Nathema officially recognized, Lord Vitiate returned to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side’s power.
Explained above. Why waste time and effort on fancy moves when objective can be accomplished with mental powers? Clearly, Vitiate was a very good decision-maker. You fail to understand his intellect.In case if he meets an opponent that can resist his Force powers, I assumed you would come to the same conclusion. Indeed he is a good decision maker after living over 1000 years. But he got too smug thinking that all his life his power alone would be enough to handle anyone in combat.
Are you stupid or a retard? I asked you to stop it.
And I now have doubts about your intellect as well.
Vitiate used TK first.Conceded. Which enforces the fact even more that in combat he relied on power alone. There is no intelligence whatsoever in overpowering someone with shear force.
See the comments of Drew Karpyshyn for reference in this case.Stop directing me nowhere. He electrocutes them, until they are down. Your assumption has no weight. He had to fully concentrate to mind dominate one individual like Revan. Mind dominating simultaneously 4 Jedi in combat would be even bigger feat. But mind dominating, while using FLS, which is another ability requiring full concentration and gathering power, is highly unlikely and baseless assumption.This seems to be the course of action:
1- Dun Moch
2- FLS / Mental Powers in action
No. Using voices is a safe strategy. During combat situations, if a Voice is struck down - Vitiate will switch to next Voice.What's the point of explaining me something I already know? This ability will not help him win. For the same reason this ability does not count, when comparing characters in versus forum as it does not add any value to combat. If you want to talk about voices, go to Emperors primer thread.
So? His powers give him element of surprise against new opponents. And he uses his Imperial Guard for the purposes you mentioned.Which is the same as relying on power alone. And he didn't use guards against Revan and Malak, he relied on his power alone. Revan's attack was unexpected.
No. You are not paying attention to my acknowledgments. I even went as far as to suggest that he was above average in intelligence.
But he is. He failed to outsmart Luke in majority of the situations.Lets see. Thul handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Vitiate handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Thul tried to overpower Luke with the Force. Failed. Vitiate tried to overpower JK with the Force. Failed. Unlike Vitiate, Thul used lightsaber as the last option, therefore he showed more intelligence and versatility during combat, than Vitiate. Thul might have been just a tool of Lomi Plo but there is not much difference in the ways both of them tried to handle others in combat.
But he does. His Gary-Stu like abilities make every course of action possible for him. He just endures everything thrown at him and always finds a way to hitback even under nearly crippled conditions. His intelligence has not get him this far. Their are many factors involved including his powers and his companions who helped him in the time of need. This you need to realize and end this argument.Luke is capable of making good decisions during difficult situations but he have been outwitted by many opponents and is not among the most intelligent people of his time - nevermind whole of the mythos.
Meetra? Revan? Satele? Kota? Hero of Tython?
Heck, even the two poorly known Jedi who fought Malgus on Aldeeran were more clever then Luke.
And I am sure, their will be more.
Voices are like experimental vessels for Vitiate. They grant him the luxury to experiment with his decision-making and are also safe to use. If a Voice is struck down in a duel, Vitiate can simply switch to a new one. In this manner, he certainly outwits his opponent because the opponent may harbor a false hope and may not realize that his/her efforts have been in vain. And Vitiate can come back to haunt the opponent again. But unlike Abeloth, Vitiate was very calculative and not careless.Ones again. Not relevant to combat. It does not improve Vitiate's chances of winning Satele or Marek.
I stated that he could use it like in case of Mara. But he never did. Or do you believe that Caedus could not take Jaina out?Yes, in their second fight he couldn't take her out and he tried as hard as he could. And having only one hand (hint: second hand was cut off) he actually lasted against her much longer than was expected, thanks to fear for his daughter. So not using poison dart, when his only hand was busy with lightsaber equates to he decided not to kill her? Are you serious? Just cut it off, not only you brought up irrelevant subject, your assumption have no basis at all.
Drew gave an idea;You might have min-maxed your character to smack Darth Malak down in seconds without breaking a sweat, but in a book that battle would have been a brutal, hard fought affair spread over multiple pages.
Vitiate can attempt to mind dominate such an opponent again. No big deal.In addition, here is revelation from Drew Karpyshyn himself:
"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."
You do not get it.Sidious was playing the same trick with Marek that he did with Luke later on. He was pretending to be helpless and weak and wanted Marek to give in to his hatred. Look at his face expression after the Force push. Also, focus on his comments at this moment.
Why she refused to fight Vitiate?
Yes! Marek caused that explosion. However, it is not clear if Marek could do stop Sidious in a fair fight.So that final Force struggle was unfair? So in order to stand at least some chance against Vitiate, Marek needs to overpower Sidious? Doesn't strike as unbiased assessment. This Force struggle demonstrated that Marek was nearly as powerful as the most powerful Sith in the mythos. That should be enough to put him on level with Vitiate.
- Marek's fight with Palpatine is inconclusive.
- Satele Shan was very powerful but reluctant to face Vitiate.
- It not clear where Malgus stands in the power hierarchy of the Vitiate's Sith Empire.
- JK have lot of victories under his belt. Scourge called him the Jedi Order's finest after fighting him. Do not underestimate him.
Sorry. You refuse to accept things that do not favor your opinion. You are a biased individual.
I know that, which is why he didn't fight them simultaneously.
They were made to participate. Try to understand the difference here.
Really?"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. "
Thanks for acknowledging this. You just went against your own baseless assumptions listed under Non facts right above with this.The reason I pointed it out is to let you know that your assumptions about her story are not less baseless, than mine. Either we both use it, or we discard this unreliable source entirely.
I know that Vitiate did not fought them simultaneously but he was ready to do so.In other words you called me color blinded for no reason.
Even if Meetra and Scourge could not handle Nyriss, they should not be underestimated still. Both of them have history against very dangerous Sith Lords.I know. That's why I hate Drew because everything made sense for Meetra to be above Revan in every way. However, fan's love for Revan and tendency to represent women weaker prevailed. 🙁
Revan and Malak would have made a formidable pair. Anybody else in Vitiate's place would have died.It's other way around. More worthy opponents are more likely to die, than be subdued as inferiors.
If he was so much capable with mental powers as you have originally claimed, why didn't he tried to do so? Leia was the greatest threat to his plans after all.You don't like my assumptions, yet, you are begging for one. I guess he enjoyed making her suffering because her own brother fought her. Also, she wasn't Force blind, she demonstrated use of the Force before, so her mentality wasn't weak. Also, after holocrons prophecy she was indeed very confident, which is the key to resist mind domination. Moreover, we have even example of non-Force sensitive resisting mind domination, she died though.
Vitiate stands apart from others in this aspect. Accept this and move on.Everyone apart from Unu'Thul, Lord Nyax and Palpatine. Lets move on now. 😉
And during the so-called pounding part, Palpatine was playing tricks with Marek in the same manner as he did with Luke. When Palpatine supposedly became serious, Marek could not stop him.Prove your assumption. 👆
Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.Intelligence outside combat is irrelevant to Versus thread as it doesn't help to win fight. Vitiate does not have combat intelligence in actual fight and that's what matters, when you determine his possibilities during fight with any character.
Vader did not wanted to kill his son.Vader is not the only example, there are many others.