Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?
OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chest
I say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call it
AS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?
Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!!
Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?
OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chest
I say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call it
AS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?
Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!! 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
Originally posted by juyomaster34You really wank hard to Mace, don't you?
Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chestI say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call itAS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!! 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
You're not taking into account anything Vader ha ever done, and your only argument is "lolmacepwns"
Originally posted by NTJack0
You really wank hard to Mace, don't you?You're not taking into account anything Vader ha ever done, and your only argument is "lolmacepwns"
You really wank hard to Vader?
I was taking into account what Vader has done.
Vader is over rated. He is n't even close to a threat as....Sidious.
your agrument is lolvaderpwns if you think a half man half machine
very low powered in the Force sith's spit like Vader can touch Mace?
My agrument still stands like every body esles'
TK Breathing machine
Followed by a lightning fast decapitation.
End of duel. 😆 😆
Originally posted by juyomaster34
You really wank hard to Vader?
I was taking into account what Vader has done.
Vader is over rated. He is n't even close to a threat as....Sidious.your agrument is lolvaderpwns if you think a half man half machine
very low powered in the Force sith's spit like Vader can touch Mace?My agrument still stands like every body esles'
TK Breathing machine
Followed by a lightning fast decapitation.
End of duel. 😆 😆
I will throw in example with Lumiya. She was even more machine than Vader. Yet, Luke even in his prime had never had easy fight with her. He won her in hard fought duel in desire to avenge his wife. And in that fight the best he achieved is driving her back until she started falling of a cliff, so he didn't even out-skill her properly.
Also, Vader actually still has the same midichlorian count as it is counted per cell. He is limited only to heavy Force exertions as they put a lot of strain on body, however, he is still capable to empower his body for combat or throw a few Force attacks that would be as strong as his potential allows.
Originally posted by Arhael
I will throw in example with Lumiya. She was even more machine than Vader. Yet, Luke even in his prime had never had easy fight with her. He won her in hard fought duel in desire to avenge his wife. And in that fight the best he achieved is driving her back until she started falling of a cliff, so he didn't even out-skill her properly.Also, Vader actually still has the same midichlorian count as it is counted per cell. He is limited only to heavy Force exertions as they put a lot of strain on body, however, he is still capable to empower his body for combat or throw a few Force attacks that would be as strong as his potential allows.
I agree but when that strain kicks in.
He will use his Hatred, which Mace through Vaapad will use against him.
Before the duel even begins he'll see Vader's shatter point and strike it.
Luke to me is over rated,the things they do with his New Order is just unnatural.
After reading the book in which Chewbacca dies I stopped reading anything that had to do
with Luke Skywalker. And that was a long time ago.
Good point, though.
I heard she was trained by Vader.
I'll say this about Vader,He was a good teacher .
Originally posted by juyomaster34
I agree but when that strain kicks in.
He will use his Hatred, which Mace through Vaapad will use against him.
Before the duel even begins he'll see Vader's shatter point and strike it.Luke to me is over rated,the things they do with his New Order is just unnatural.
After reading the book in which Chewbacca dies I stopped reading anything that had to do
with Luke Skywalker. And that was a long time ago.Good point, though.
I heard she was trained by Vader.
I'll say this about Vader,He was a good teacher .
Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vader's style in peak suit is not about being acrobatic or flashy like he was as Anakin. His style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents. If he can take on 8 Jedi on Kessel at once and suffer only minor damage, why wouldn't he be able to take on one jedi, even if it is Mace....
The 501st helped Vader at Kessel,and for the record he suffered damage
Palpatine hide the truth from the holo net to make Vader even more his instrument of fear.
Yes I know his style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents.
Vaapad does the same thing but with better control. Dude this Mace Windu,not Kit Fisto.
Vaapad is not acrobatic,not even flashy. try (Ataru ). just the ultimate aggression.
Peak suit Vader got his ass kicked by Inquistor Treymane do I need to go further?
Another one who let him live,need I say more?
I agree but when that strain kicks in.
He will use his Hatred, which Mace through Vaapad will use against him.
Same way, when deflecting lightning, in Windu's head it was passing into him and out but in reality it didn't even reach him as he blocked and deflected it with lightsaber.
The idea is that he relishes fight and it allows him to reach top performance as much as his potential allows. But it doesn't give him advantage over whatever darksider he fights. With such logic you can argue that he pawns every known Sith in the EU, which is clearly fallacy.
Before the duel even begins he'll see Vader's shatter point and strike it.Unfortunately you can't prove it. In fight with Sidious it took him some time to find shatterpoint but it was still of no use. He can find shatterpoint in armor of Vader but unlike Grievous Vader can defend against Force attacks.
Luke to me is over rated,the things they do with his New Order is just unnatural.After reading the book in which Chewbacca dies I stopped reading anything that had to do
with Luke Skywalker. And that was a long time ago.
Like it or not, you can't take away feat of fighting Marek from Vader.
Like Windu he was master of Juyo but on top of that he was much more powerful.
He did defeat Vader but it took him getting enraged as well as using Dun Moch. Before that they fought evenly.
It would be a good and even fight between them. Vader has greater power and much more strength. But Windu has more agility and can last longer. And both of them are exceptionally skilled in combat.
Originally posted by Arhael
Lets not forget that Vaapad is state of mind, not a Force technique. He was reflecting fury and power of Sidious in his mind.
Not this crap again Arheal. Here's the novel's description of their duel:
Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of
lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and
peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their
own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name
from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of
Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its
blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not
uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever
killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many
tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count.
Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its
power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates
that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must
allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the
thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads
through the penumbra of the dark side.
Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living
master.
This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a
bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out
of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which
danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the
darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade,
that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an
oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be
dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be
Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts
of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that
Anakin could not truly see them—
But he could feel them in the Force.
The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them,
boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though
some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by
it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both
ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a
blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of
the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in
himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding:
on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had
learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.
But—
Neither did he have power over it.Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting
loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of
battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's
office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might
not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands
became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the
air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or
overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the
endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the
possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's
only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle
it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and
crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders
turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along
the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he
chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the
now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the
slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in
the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking
through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the
window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.
His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force
nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he
slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer
from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his
head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so
could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the
shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them
both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rainslicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the
shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Forcepowered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and
slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The
other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell
through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning
hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,"
Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
This part below supports the idea that Mace is somehow able to tap into Sidious' rage/fury and utilize it against him - in effect redirecting it back at him.:
"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again."
"And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back
to its source."
No matter how you choose to look at it Arheal, the book CLEARLY states that Vaapad resulted in Sidious' lethal intent (in this specific case - Force Lightning, and earlier, his speed and rage) being reflected back and used against him.
Arheal, your explanation simply cannot account for Windu fighting on auto-pilot with absolutely no possibility of fatigue. It just can't. Quit trying to fight what has already been clearly spelled out for you.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=555035&pagenumber=1
That is why he created Vaapad.
A because of HIS inner darkness
B To kill Sith, Dark Siders.
Ok I 'll prove it you really don't need Shatter Point or Vaapad
to defeat Vader.
Again Treymane kicked Vader's ass,Galen,his Clone,heck,
that small band on Kessel kicked his ass
if it was n't for the 501st who helped him he would be dead.
The box on his chest is a target
A target that atracts attention.
He will try his best to guard this area on his center line
To his pre skill to his peak skill with no success
I was waiting for someone to bring up Dun Moch.
Good point. The battle will go from sabers to TK
I admit that Vader's TK is impressive but in an enraged state?
All he's doing is fueling Vaapad with his Hatred and Dark Rage.
Thus Vader making a fatal mistake.
Here's were Shatter Point will kick in and the reults are spare parts
and a butched broken man who couldn't see that he was the person
Who will kill his wife.
He made this mistake with Dooku then with Obi wan and then with the people
I just mentioned.
Did you read what Jinsaku Takai said. Vader can't move that fast. My point....
Very Good point Jinsaku,
Mace will do the same to Vader.
By some magical will of the writers Vader might beat Mace.
That is the only way.
Grievous doesn't reflect Force powers. Grievous was needed for the end game..
In LOE Mace had this duel. until the writers decided it to be stalemate.
It can be proven about him seeing Vader's Shatter Point,
Mace vs Jango Fett
Mace vs the Summer time War.
lastly Mace vs Sidious.
Anakin was Sidious's Shatter Point.
This is the end game,this is why the writers and the creator
wanted Mace to die.
IF (VERY BIG ) IF Anakin got there too late or had not come at all,
Sidious would have been DEAD. Or both of them....
Mace is the only Jedi Master who could ever beat and kill Sidious.
If not? Why kill him off? Why did Sidious think he was a threat to his plans?
Think about this. Sidious has forseen many futures and in them he could not see
his own death. No Sith could.
Vader is not that powerful
Mace isn't either.
Clearly he is more powerful than Cyborg Vader
So no mattter how you look at it.
Mace wins this Duel.
📖 ✅ ✅ ✅
This part below supports the idea that Mace is somehow able to tap into Sidious' rage/fury and utilize it against him - in effect redirecting it back at him.:
"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again."
"And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back
to its source."No matter how you choose to look at it Arheal, the book CLEARLY states that Vaapad resulted in Sidious' lethal intent (in this specific case - Force Lightning, and earlier, his speed and rage) being reflected back and used against him.
You can't explain how speed can be accepted because it is not even Force.
You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source. And especially how it would weaken Sidious. Because it is emotion, Sidious just felt it and boosted his physical attacks with it.
Lightning gets deflected from lightsaber without Vaapad, especially, at such close distance. And you keep ignoring how naration about lightning contradicts what really happened:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him" - when in reality it did not, he caught it with lightsaber.
Arheal, your explanation simply cannot account for Windu fighting on auto-pilot with absolutely no possibility of fatigue. It just can't.
BTW - there's no reason to believe that because something is a state of mind, it has nothing to do with the Force. Quite the contrary actually.
We all give various interpretation to the Force but in this case it is irrelevant.
The very idea that Windu pawning ALL darksiders because of Vaapad is retarded and outright boring.
Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.
Originally posted by Arhael
You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source.
It could be that Vapaad's advanced techniques can use an opponents own power against them??
After all some martial arts do the same thing. Maybe with Vapaad it's an emphasis on furious anger powered strikes.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.
Mace also almost got overwhelmed by Sidious's Force push on both the novel and the script.
If Mace had absorbed Sidious's power then that really shouldn't have happened.
Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vader's style in peak suit is not about being acrobatic or flashy like he was as Anakin. His style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents. If he can take on 8 Jedi on Kessel at once and suffer only minor damage, why wouldn't he be able to take on one jedi, even if it is Mace....
No way. On Kessel Vader got his shit handed to him, if the Jedi had worked more as a team and not been (in some cases) killing each other, they would have stomped him. Tsui Choi alone was giving him a ton of trouble. In fact if Tsui Choi had aimed his lightsaber a bit better/ not been being gunned down. He probably would have killed Vader.
It could be that Vapaad's advanced techniques can use an opponents own power against them??
After all some martial arts do the same thing. Maybe with Vapaad it's an emphasis on furious anger powered strikes.
While Windu did get empowered with help of Sidious, he became only as powerful as his potential allowed. So at no point he reached equal power to Sidious nor his state of mind weakened Sidious in any way. Why he still won? Because of his unparalleled combat skills.
Such interpretion goes perfectly in accord with RotS novel as well as the rest of EU.
Vaapad doesn't give advantage over darksiders. However, it allows grey Jedi to reach their prime performance, when fighting them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It could be that Vapaad's advanced techniques can use an opponents own power against them??After all some martial arts do the same thing. Maybe with Vapaad it's an emphasis on furious anger powered strikes.
Mace also almost got overwhelmed by Sidious's Force push on both the novel and the script.
If Mace had absorbed Sidious's power then that really shouldn't have happened.
Yes....,Darth Power,it can use an opponents own powers against them.
This has been proven.