Darth Vader (Peak Suit) Vs. Mace Windu

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Are you seriously arguing that Mace Windu>Yoda? Because pretty much every sourcebook today hails Yoda as the best duelist of the PT order.
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or [B]stars help you, Yoda?"
^Implications that Yoda is the best duelist.
He is often grouped to be the greatest Master of the era, a great warrior, a brilliant strategist, a master of TK, a master duelist, a Master at Tutaminis, a Master of Battle Meditation. Hell, Yoda is quite honestly the most versatile Jedi Master in history, and the second most powerful. [/B]

I'm not saying Mace is greater or Yoda is greater.Their are both great at what they bring to
the Order. But Yoda isn't the ONLY master in what you listed. He isn't the only versatiled master
in the Order.There were others.

Yoda doesn't think of himself as a warrior, but a teacher, a diplomat.
Sourcebooks are based on whatever the Creator says it is. Sidious was all these things,too.
And look what happened to him. Mace had the easy way out,being betrayed and blasted out
a so many stories window. And Vader, well you saw what happened to him, too.

Wait a min. you can use those emotions .
I Know it's a state of mind.
Yeah it relishes fights, I get it.
But he loves to fight
he loves the Republic
he loves the Jedi Order.
In both Shatter Point and ROTS,

He was willing to give his life to save them.
So that doesn't count with the other examples you said?

I think as long as controlled emotions are involved in Vaapad
The State of Mind will concur with either mentality or emotion.
Giving you that Focus to take the enemy out.

If that mentality doesn't work then you change strategies and adapt.
You change mentalities as well.
That's what I meant.
Good debate I learned something new.

Juyo is the wild card,here. why was it left unfinished all these years?
In the past,past masters still practiced Juyo.
The Sith say its complete and it was created for them.

The feeding off the darkside, feeding off emtions is all Juyo and Sith.
Arhael your replies on this,let's explore Juyo. Guys your replies on this.

Wait a min. you can use those emotions .
I Know it's a state of mind.
Yeah it relishes fights, I get it.
But he loves to fight
he loves the Republic
he loves the Jedi Order.
In both Shatter Point and ROTS,

He was willing to give his life to save them.
So that doesn't count with the other examples you said?

I think as long as controlled emotions are involved in Vaapad
The State of Mind will concur with either mentality or emotion.
Giving you that Focus to take the enemy out.

If that mentality doesn't work then you change strategies and adapt.
You change mentalities as well.
That's what I meant.
Good debate I learned something new

Everyone knows that the darkside makes you stronger in the SHORT TERM.

Darkside useage is either a short-term adrenaline rush, giving increased power, but a ton of fatigue afterwards, or prolonged useage can lead to greater power in the long run.

Lightside useage is the opposite, the primary goal is long term peace and focus, which leads to greater power,

Dooku was stronger when he turned Sith because he wasn't tied down by Jedi rules, and easily could remain focused and cool-headed enough to manipulate the force without sinking into any sort of blind rage. Like when he demo'd the obelisks for Opress.

Unrestrained rage vs Tempered focus.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Arhael
Emotions are stimulated but what you are thinking about.
Anakin loved Padme. Yet, during fight with Dooku he wasn't thinking about her, he was thinking about Dooku's taunting and wanted to avenge for everything he did, such thinking angered him. Whatever Windu loved, during fight he was thinking about Vaapad, he was required to think about winning his opponent and relish it. And you can't just change mentality according to strategy, if it doesn't work.
For example, Anakin easily gets angered, so either he restrains himself which weakens him or uses his anger getting much stronger. He can't maintain calm like Yoda or Kenobi. Same for Windu, he can't be calm because of his inner darkness and that's why he invented Vaapad, so instead of restraining himself he goes all-out by using darkside. If Windu could be as calm as Yoda, Vaapad would be absolutly useless to him. Same for Dooku, he was a Jedi whole life, yet, he became more powerful as Sith. Characters like Dooku, Windu and Anakin are stronger, when using darkside.

Anakin uses anger blindly anyway.
You can change mentality.
You're wrong, Vaapad wouldn't be useless to him if he was calm.
he was calm not in a Yoda or Kenobi calm.
Both Juyo and Vaapad requires the practitioner to be calm and in control

if you have the I want to win (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly start loosing
what do you do? you change your strategy and your state of mind.

if you change it to I want to fight (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly change the
pace or length of the battle or duel by either stalemating or loosing.

Either way you're gonna either die,survive, win, loose or stalemate.

if you use either mentality you can still change strategies.
The same goes for strategy if you change mentalities.

Now to kill the hype of emotions between Anakin and Mace.
Read what Vaapad is again.
Like I said Anakin uses anger blindly anyway,he (at that time )
couldn't control his anger thus letting Obi Wan cut off his limbs
due to the high ground strategy.

Mace does n't go all out using the darkside that would be Sora Bulq.
if he did he would have fell to the dark side.
Mace uses the dark side to a certain degree.

Love is still an emotion.
he loved the Republic
he loved the Jedi Order.

he uses that to fuel Vaapad.
he loves to fight
he loves to win.

When ever the Republic or Jedi Order is threated, he's gonna use Vaapad based on what I just
said.His weakness is inner darkness.

What is his Inner darkness? his love of fighting? his love of winning? the thrill of battle?
I say it's all these and whatever characteristics that are unJedi or in other words anti Jedi.

He is the most dangerous Jedi besides Depa and Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Everyone knows that the darkside makes you stronger in the SHORT TERM.

Darkside useage is either a short-term adrenaline rush, giving increased power, but a ton of fatigue afterwards, or prolonged useage can lead to greater power in the long run.

Lightside useage is the opposite, the primary goal is long term peace and focus, which leads to greater power,

Dooku was stronger when he turned Sith because he wasn't tied down by Jedi rules, and easily could remain focused and cool-headed enough to manipulate the force without sinking into any sort of blind rage. Like when he demo'd the obelisks for Opress.

Unrestrained rage vs Tempered focus.

Just my opinion.

And a very good opinion. key word Jedi Rules.
Both Juyo and Vaapad required you to be focused and cool-headed to use them
without sinking into any sort of blind rage.

Vaapad gives you an option to wield it with or without Jedi Rules and Restraint.

Tempered Aggression & Vornskr's Ferocity vs Unrestrained Rage.

It's that I refuse to believe that you can't change your state of mind and your strategy.
At the same time in the midst of battle!!! I won't believe that.

You put up a very good debate but this thing with the emotions when we both know both
styles uses and feeds on emotions light or dark in Vaapad's case.

you brought up Anakin and Pademe'.
What about Sora and Depa?
Which were very touchy and sore subjects and Vaapad being....personal for Mace.
Jedi vs Sith pp112 ,113,and 114.

Your point is vice versa to Mace. except Mace is in control of his anger and emotions.
Anakin is not.

Again, you can change your strategy and your state of mind.
Example Summertime War and the whole Haruun Kal system for the republic.
pp346,347,348. and further pages in the book.
Both feats accomplished at the same time.

Mace vs Depa vs Kar.
Example he didn't want to kill Depa
he could have killed Kar but decided not to.
Both would have turned him to the darkside.

Anakin uses anger blindly anyway.
You can change mentality.
You're wrong, Vaapad wouldn't be useless to him if he was calm.
he was calm not in a Yoda or Kenobi calm.
Both Juyo and Vaapad requires the practitioner to be calm and in control

Anakin's blind anger is what made him so powerful:
"His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

At that point he didn't care that darkside was consuming him. He didn't try to control his anger like he normally did before. He stopped doubting himself. He completly abandoned all the Jedi dogmas and morals, lost all restraints. He completely gave in to his anger. Pure rage focused at single opponent with single desire to defeat him. Reckless, uncontrolled but immenselly powerful and unstopable.

And with the same state of mind he fought with Kenobi. Single desire to defeat his opponent without caring for anything else.

Now to kill the hype of emotions between Anakin and Mace.
Read what Vaapad is again.
Like I said Anakin uses anger blindly anyway,he (at that time )
couldn't control his anger thus letting Obi Wan cut off his limbs
due to the high ground.

In comparison Luke in RotJ refused to strike down defensless opponent and as result lightside prevailed, Anakin was finally redeemed and the balance in the Force restored.

Darkside cannot be defeated by darkside. That's what Windu never understood. No matter how long he tempered with darkside, it gave him greater power but like other Vaapad users it led to his downfall.

if you have the I want to win (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly start loosing
what do you do? you change your strategy and your state of mind.

if you change it to I want to fight (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly change the
pace or length of the battle or duel by either stalemating or loosing

Love is still an emotion.
he loved the Republic
he loved the Jedi Order.

he uses that to fuel Vaapad.
he loves to fight
he loves to win.

As you see state of mind is not something you can change, it depends on your personality and experience.

And again. It's not enough just to love something, you need to focus on it. You can't think about multiple things at the same time. Windu can't think about republic and Vaapad simultaniously.

You can change your state of mind.
It's not thinking about multiple things.
if I fight a guy with that poor excuse you gave for not controlling your anger in a fight?
I'll get my ass kicked.

Control is key in everything you do.
Your anger will distract you,there is no try -to when I'm in any fight
Anger telegraphs your reactions,making you less effective.

Negativity makes you rigid,and when you lose flexibility
opponents can easily target techniques around you
As simply as water can circle stone.

I'll prove it.
What is a state of mind?
noun 1. mindset- a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you
will interpret and respond to situations.
mentallity,mindset,out look,attitude mental attitude

a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values
and dispotions to act in certain ways; he had the attitude that fighting was fun.

approach -ideas or actions intended to deal with a problem or situation;
(example) "his approach to every problem is to draw up a list of pros and cons "
"an attack on inflation "
"his plan of attack was misguided"

plan of attack,attack; conceptual,formulation,conceptualisation - inventing or contriving an idea
or explanation and formulating it mentally.

State of mind

Noun: attitude perspective outlook approach mood dispotion frame of mind
mindset way of looking at things.

Still think you can't change YOUR state of mind?
WELL you can and I just did on this situation.

correction: light and dark side use. I never said it didn't.
love is an emotion he can feed off of just like anger hate aggression compassion.

Luke wanted to save his father (love and compassion )
Mace wanted to kill Sidious who was a threat to what HE loved (The Jedi Order,The Republic)

His mistake was just like the book said his failure of sensing Anakin's ShatterPoint.
That's 1 of the reasons he told Anakin to wait in the Council's Chambers.
Mace sensed a great deal of confusion in Anakin which was clouding his judgement.

Mace did not fall to dark side the book or any other sources didn't say he did.
Juyo and Vaapad's philosophy concept what ever you wanna call it is
The Battle is not over until your opponent is dead. Never relax your guard. Always be ready .

Mace understood this, he was free of his Jedi restraint in that area,that's why Juyo and Vaapad
are different from the other six. Form Vll is the Mastery of control, not the loss of it .
That is what makes this form lethal and more dangerous than the others

To draw out your victory is foolish. Get the killing done. Then move on.
Sidious is not your ordinary defenseless opponent.
Anakin was only thinking of Power. Vaapad would have truly mastered him.

Sidious had control of the courts the Army , everything .
He was truly too dangerous to be left alive .
That's why he was a Jedi Master and Master of the Order ,to make a tough and difficult
decision to kill a sworn enemy of the Jedi with that much power ?

He did right to strike him down armed or unarmed.
The person to blame is Anakin,alone.
He allowed Order 66 to happen then he WILLING joined the Sith.

Now what you think was gonna happen?
He gets arrested/bails out
Charge the Jedi with treason Order 66 happens either way it goes.

All that for what? he didn't learn how to stop her from dieing/heck he was the that killed her.
The only thing I blame Mace for is not sensing Anakin's shatter point
refusing to send Anakin to fight Grievous and for not waiting on Yoda to return

So they both could duel Sidious tgether instead those lame might as well be Jedi knights.
Even Yoda says Anakin /Vader betrayed the Jedi so The blame is still Anakin's, alone.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
I'll prove it.
What is a state of mind?
noun 1. mindset- a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you
will interpret and respond to situations.
mentallity,mindset,out look,attitude mental attitude

a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values
and dispotions to act in certain ways; he had the attitude that fighting was fun.

approach -ideas or actions intended to deal with a problem or situation;
(example) "his approach to every problem is to draw up a list of pros and cons "
"an attack on inflation "
"his plan of attack was misguided"

plan of attack,attack; conceptual,formulation,conceptualisation - inventing or contriving an idea
or explanation and formulating it mentally.

State of mind

Noun: attitude perspective outlook approach mood disposition frame of mind
mindset way of looking at things.

Still think you can't change YOUR state of mind?
WELL you can and I just did on this situation.

So to kill this you can change your state of mind. every body does .
Example Again , if your team is playing only offense and in the state of mind of they want to win
but are down by 15 and 4:00min. on the clock, how are they gonna win?

by staying with the we want to win and play nothing but offense?
No they change their way of play ,strategy , state of mind, and play defense as well as offense,
And most of all play as a team.

That's why Vaapad is also a state of mind
you can have a mindset in the form of or use as attitude perspective out look
approach mood disposition frame of mind mentality . combine any of these with skill
the Force technique strategy or tactic. Still think you can't change? Says you...

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry but wrong. Juyo and Vaapad requires to use Darkside. And Darkside has nothing to do with calm, it's exact oposite. Windu during fight with Sidious was anything but calm.

Anakin's blind anger is what made him so powerful:
"His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, [b]his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

At that point he didn't care that darkside was consuming him. He didn't try to control his anger like he normally did before. He stopped doubting himself. He completly abandoned all the Jedi dogmas and morals, lost all restraints. He completely gave in to his anger. Pure rage focused at single opponent with single desire to defeat him. Reckless, uncontrolled but immenselly powerful and unstopable.

And with the same state of mind he fought with Kenobi. Single desire to defeat his opponent without caring for anything else.

Windu made the same ultimate mistake. He tried to strike down defensless opponent, which is completely against all Jedi principals. Darkside took over Windu and it cost his life as well as completed Anakin's fall to the darkside and made Order 66 happen. Windu is to be blamed as much as Anakin.

In comparison Luke in RotJ refused to strike down defensless opponent and as result lightside prevailed, Anakin was finally redeemed and the balance in the Force restored.

Darkside cannot be defeated by darkside. That's what Windu never understood. No matter how long he tempered with darkside, it gave him greater power but like other Vaapad users it led to his downfall.

You still don't get it.
Here is scenario.
You fight a guy. Then he says: "SUCK YA MAMA". 🙂
Either you gonna get pissed off and beat crap out of him. Or you will try to control your anger but controlling anger will distract you, break your focus and allow him to beat you up.
Same in SW. Kenobi in PM got enrage at Maul and as result started overwhelming him. Years later Kenobi fought Maul again at first he even tooled Maul but then Maul started taunting him about death of Qui-Gon. Kenobi as experienced Jedi controlled his anger but it completely broke his concentration and as result Maul started tooling him instead.

As you see state of mind is not something you can change, it depends on your personality and experience.

And again. It's not enough just to love something, you need to focus on it. You can't think about multiple things at the same time. Windu can't think about republic and Vaapad simultaniously. [/B]

Again to kill the emotion part between Mace and Anakin.
You just proved me right again, blind anger can get u killed .
It got him losing his limbs .
if it made you unstoppable (HE) Anakin would have killed Obi Wan.
It costed the trust of Jedi Council and the Rank of Master

The Tusken Raider thing I agree 100%.
I would have killed the whole Tusken Raider Population not just that one clan.
That was his Mother, they had no right .

Mace had enough self control to keep from sinking into the Dark Side.
He had no power over the Dark Side and the Dark Side had no power over him either,
With its promises of power and whispers of easy victory Mace resisted the Dark Side.

Vaapad wasn't Mace 's down fall.
He mastered Vaapad.
Anakin was Mace and the entire Jedi Order's down fall.

You can't say Mace fell to the dark side (you have no proof )
You can't say Vaapad was his down fall again no proof.

The only Proof we have is Anakin betrayed the Jedi Order.
Not Mace Not Yoda, Anakin .

Yoda said it himself in ESB.
Obi Wan said it in SW ESB and ROTJ .

It wasn't rage or the Dark Side that made Mace raise his Saber to Sidious for the death strike
It was his Love for the Jedi Order and the Republic and the Simple Fact that Palpatine
was a Sith Lord.

Armed or Unarmed he was too dangerous to live.
Plus the Sith spit was using Force Lightning and he truly wasn't unarmed.

You said he tried to fight the dark side with the dark side.
No this is wrong too, BC Sith fight each other with the Dark Side for a millennia
It always came down to the strongest Sith as the new Sith Lord and master .
Rule of Two, Rule of the Strong, One Sith, should I go on ?

Even the Sith in Luke Skywalker over rated era they fought for Supremecy.
And I don't even like his era.
To really kill this thread and the one about Vaapad. I gave you proof behind almost everything
on this thread and you still refuse to believe that you can change your state of mind

Your focus, your strategy. and you can say is you can't think about multiple things
at one time your wrong

Once again I"ll prove it,
Anakin did to fuel his anger in LOE
When you're in a fight your focus is your opponents' whole being and your surroundings.
Nothing else matters

They were good examples but here's the shatterpoint to everything you said thus far
Maul taunted Obi wan about Qui Gon's death, Distraction

Maul followed this tactic with hand to hand combat which is heavily used in Juyo.
Maul was also calm and in control the whole duel.
That thing you said about Mace being not calm.

Look up Juyo in POJ and BOS .
Then look up both Juyo and Vaapad in any source and you'll see calm or something similar
to the word calm.

So you see I've been away reading and researching I have more proof from where that came
from. I have studied Juyo and Vaapad a long time. the other styles too. but this style is my primary
chosen style and my personal favorite.

Juyomaster34 I think you need to write a bit more. Just so we can all properly grasp what your saying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Juyomaster34 I think you need to write a bit more. Just so we can all properly grasp what your saying.

What's up Darth Power, me and Arhael are having a debate about whether you can change your
state of mind or not. I say you can

he says you can't.

As you can see we're on Vaapad's state of mind.
he says you can't focus on multiple things.
I'm not saying you focus on multiple things,
I'm saying you can change your state of mind and whatever else
if its not working

You find other ways to solve the problem.
Example, We know Vaapad is also a state of mind,
I gave him the definition as well as examples of the SOM(state of mind)

I was trying so very hard to say that you can change your SOM,
your strategy, your fighting method.

Ok the want to win mentality,
if this mentality doesn't work for you then
some other mind set or approach etc. might will .

Vaapad can still be weilded with or without the SOM,
The rest is in the thread. I still believe that I proved my point .

Ok (Example )
My state of mind is (I want to win )
My strategy is to kill the chancellor and end the war.
I sense a shatter point to end the war and in the chancellor.

I'm slightly losing,what are options? How do I win?

Wrong. Windu invented Vaapad because he couldn't change his state of mind on first place. He couldn't become pure avatar of light like Yoda.

And as I said you can't use Vaapad and draw on love for somebody simultaniously. You can't think about CoD3 and your girlfriend. You need to choose. If you think about CoD3, you might get pissed off at remembering how you couldn't complete a level. Likewise, if you think about girlfriend, you might remember how she wasn't letting you to play CoD3 and still get pissed off.

Could Kenobi predict that Maul will taunt him? No. He failed to maintain his focus and started losing.

Whatever Jedi think about during combat, it doesn't guaranty to change or improve their state of mind, it's unpredictable. Jacen experience deepest known Oneness with the Force and he knew that he would never be able to experience it again.

Vaapad wasn't Mace 's down fall.
He mastered Vaapad.
Anakin was Mace and the entire Jedi Order's down fall.

You can't say Mace fell to the dark side (you have no proof )
You can't say Vaapad was his down fall again no proof.

Because of flaw in the Old Order system Anain had to keep his relationship with Padme secret and, when he started seeing bad dreams with her, he couldn't even share his problem with anyone. And because of that Sidous could influence him. Sidious tried to convince him that Jedi betraid republic but Anakin wasn't convinced and reported to Order. In that moment, when Sidious was at Windu's mercy, Anakin was still in doubt. He needed guidance in that moment. And Windu instead of showing good example, tried to kill defenceless opponent.

Finding easy solution IS the path of the darkside. And this is perfect example why. If Windu didn't try to kill Sidious, Anakin wouldn't need to attack him and wouldn't turn to the darkside. And even if Sidious escaped or took over goverment later, there would still be thee powerful Jedi alive: Yoda, Windu and Anakin(not Vader) himself. Anakin would fulfil the prophecy without becoming Vader.

Luke's quote to Sidious Empire's End: "I won’t fall into your trap, Palpatine. Death is not the answer for you. You are my prisoner".

Luke had the same choice to strike down defenceless Jacen years later but that could turn his son to darkside, so he didn't do that despite Jacen being clear danger to republic and to everything Luke stood for.

Anakin was telling Windu not to kill Sidious, yet, Windu ignored him and failed to sence confusion of young Jedi because darkside was clouding his mind. Darkside lures to take easier choice. Windu took the easiest choice and you know the consequences.