Darth Vader (Peak Suit) Vs. Mace Windu

Originally posted by Arhael
Somehow and CLEARLY can't go together. Because you can't explain how it works, thus it is not CLEAR statement.

You can't explain how speed can be accepted because it is not even Force.
You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source. And especially how it would weaken Sidious. Because it is emotion, Sidious just felt it and boosted his physical attacks with it.
Lightning gets deflected from lightsaber without Vaapad, especially, at such close distance. And you keep ignoring how naration about lightning contradicts what really happened:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him" - when in reality it did not, he caught it with lightsaber.

What fatigue are you talking about? Re-watch film, their fight is too short to get fatigued.

WHATT? When did I say that it has nothing to do with Force?? Force is driven by emotions. Indeed, Force users can get empowered by both their own and opponent's emotions. But emotion is not power itself, it gives focus to draw on the Force, to utilize inner potential.
Sidious was tapping into his rage. Windu was tapping into Sidious' emotions, he relished fights, which means he draws on whatever emotions fights cause. While it seems unfair that Windu benefits from emotions of opponents and, indeed, it is advantage, however, it doesn't mean that he gets more powerful than his potential can allow. Because as I said emotions give focus but Power comes from within.

We all give various interpretation to the Force but in this case it is irrelevant.
The very idea that Windu pawning ALL darksiders because of Vaapad is retarded and outright boring.

Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.

Vaapad does make him just as powerful.
It's not retarded or out right boring that Windu nearly pawns ALL darksiders
because of Vaapad. It 's just fact.
Anyone skilled in the Force and Mastery of Vaapad can nearly pawn ALL darksiders.

In comparison to Yoda, (really) Yoda was overwhelmed by Sidious.
And not by just the lightning. He couldn't defeat Sidious.
Mace did with Vaapad.
This was also proven .

In his Vaapad state no one was above Mace except Depa Billaba
That was BC She surpassed him In Vaapad state.
When she fell to the DarkSide,Mace was stil above the Order in his Vaapad state.
This has been also proven.

I wouldn't say Vaapad made him equal I would say greater
l mean really we have n't seen Vaapad's true power.
Until then I refuse to believe something is beyond Vaapad because if he had survived
that betrayal he would have finished refining and evolving it.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

In his Vaapad state no one was above Mace except Depa Billaba
That was BC She surpassed him In Vaapad state.
When she fell to the DarkSide,Mace was stil above the Order in his Vaapad state.

Depa wasn't above Mace... Mace refused to fight back in their duel in Shatterpoint. This was due to both his love for her as a former student and his fear of using Vaapad again in that situation.

PLUS, Mace was shot beaten and stabbed through his stomach with a lightsaber (by surprise).

Yes....,Darth Power,it can use an opponents own powers against them.
This has been proven.

Vaapad does make him just as powerful.

It's not retarded or out right boring that Windu nearly pawns ALL darksiders
because of Vaapad. It 's just fact.

Anyone skilled in the Force and Mastery of Vaapad can nearly pawn ALL darksiders.

In comparison to Yoda, (really) Yoda was overwhelmed by Sidious.
And not by just the lightning. He couldn't defeat Sidious.
Mace did with Vaapad.
This was also proven .

In his Vaapad state no one was above Mace except Depa Billaba
That was BC She surpassed him In Vaapad state.
When she fell to the DarkSide,Mace was stil above the Order in his Vaapad state.
This has been also proven.

I wouldn't say Vaapad made him equal I would say greater.

l mean really we have n't seen Vaapad's true power.
Until then I refuse to believe something is beyond Vaapad because if he had survived that betrayal he would have finished refining and evolving it.

Until then I refuse to believe something is beyond Vaapad because if he had survived that betrayal he would have finished refining and evolving it.

Kenobi survived fight against far more powerful and boosted by rage Anakin.

Marek in desire to save Rebels resisted lightning of Sidious through unbearable pain without lightsaber and without ability to Force absorb.

Luke without mastery in any form inspired by Leya defeated Siduous in his most powerful incarnation.

Anakin Solo was below Jacen in combat, yet, he could enter such state of mind that could engage multiple Yuuzhan Vong, while Jacen had hard time defeating one.

Ganner Rysode on embrasing his arrogance slayed 1000s Vongs in single fight, while before he could hardly defeat even 1 Vong.

Jacen achieved such state of mind that he achieved deepest known unity with the Force.

Same Jacen by drawing on pain stalemated prime Luke, when noone else could do it.

Luke by drawing on love for his son and entire Order out wrestled Abeloth and she was multiple times more powerful than him.

All these feats are achieved with different states of mind and in each case Force user tapped into far greater power than Vaapad could give. The only difference is that they didn't name it new combat style like Windu.

Yeah I'd put Mace, Yoda and even Dooku over Sidious in pure sabers (and ''Anakin in the z0ne'' also)

Originally posted by juyomaster34

In comparison to Yoda, (really) Yoda was overwhelmed by Sidious.
And not by just the lightning. He couldn't defeat Sidious.
Mace did with Vaapad.
This was also proven .

According to the script Yoda was battering Sidious before he disarmed him (a scene missing from the film).

Sidious only survived due to having a more advantageous position the whole fight.

Yoda was the most powerful Jedi in the PT era and the biggest threat to Sidious.

Mace Windu owns

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Depa wasn't above Mace... Mace refused to fight back in their duel in Shatterpoint. This was due to both his love for her as a former student and his fear of using Vaapad again in that situation.

PLUS, Mace was shot beaten and stabbed through his stomach with a lightsaber (by surprise).

Her blade work surpassed his.
source shatter point,wookieepedia,clone wars comics.

You're right about the duel part,though .

Originally posted by Arhael
Correction. It has been interpreted, not proven.
And it is wrong.
The only example of using opponents power is by leaching life energy with Force drain.
Power doesn't come out of users, power is all around, they draw on the Force that surrounds them. Windu used emotions of Sidious against him, not power.

No. You can't ignore the fact that he nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning, despite the fact that lightsaber makes it easier to defend against lightning. On the other hand Yoda was as powerful and demonstrated it by stalemating Sidious with bare hands.

Wrong and unsupported.
Vaapad was suitable for Windu because he became himself, when using it. However, others failed and turned to darkside. Every character can reach top performance with state of mind that suits them. For Windu Vaapad was the answer because it turned his weakness into strength. Other characters have other weaknesses and therefore they achieve top performance by other means.

Yoda stalemated Sidious in direct Force contest. And don't forget that Windu can put his entire Force effort into combat, while Yoda needs to redirect significant part of his power just to overcome his physical limitatons. Yoda simply doesn't have offensive firepower like Anakin or Windu, he compensates it with speed but it is not enough to overwhelm opponents as fast as Dooku or Sidious.
Moreover, circumstances of their fight turned it into Force contest, Windu would die for sure in the same scenario.

Prove that Depa was above Windu.
And Windu has never been above Yoda in whatever state.

Nope, it didn't make him greater. He was less powerful than Sidious as example with lightning proves but more skilled with sabers. Simple as that.

All these feats are achieved with different states of mind and in each case Force user tapped into far greater power than Vaapad could give. The only difference is that they didn't name it new combat style like Windu. [/QUOTE]
So you're telling me Vaapad can't evolve and adapt like everything else in that overrated era ?
You're wrong. You can use different states of mind with Vaapad. The reason why nobody uses
Vaapad in that overrated era is BC they don't understand how to use it or expand on it
to make adaptable to their era.
What you just said in those examples is 1 of many things that this style can adapt and evolve
through different practitioners. If they choose Vaapad or Juyo.

Next reply. You're still wrong. Force speed is a Force power,so is Force Lightnining.
So Vaapad was using his powers against him as well as emotions.
Jinsokai Takia explained this. So did I and everyone else.
You can't absorb or reflect Force speed,BUT you can adapt and counter it.

The Force is their Power. A Power that each Force organization uses.A Power that Vaapad
uses against you.Vaapad is at once a lightsaber style,a state of mind, a tangible Power and unarmed martial art or hand to hand take your pick.

The environment thing is right BUT like everything else can be used against you.
Force drain? I never said like that.
I'm talking about Tutaminis.

This is what Yoda and all those other guys used to absorb Force Lightnining.
Look up Tutaminis in wookieepedia,Jedi Path.

Vaapad uses Light and Dark powers. This is were the "tangible Power " thing comes from
hello? Force Crush,Battle Mind, Force Grip,etc.
Who Knows what else My Point still we have n't seen Vaapad Full Power besides Sidious vs Mace and etc. I stated this in past replies.

This is what makes it different from Juyo, Arhael.
Juyo is the foundation of Vaapad.
Shatter Point explains some what of what Vaapad is.
Wookieepedia explains the rest. Try other sources
Just as Shein is part of the foundation for Form V.
Shein and Djem So are NOT the Same.

They share the same goal: Counter Attack .
Djem So created from Makashi and Soresu
Shein created from Soresu.

Vaapad was created and Founded by Mace Windu.
Fact, proven. end of story.
"I am called a Master because I INVENTED A LETHAL STYLE".

NEXT REPLY

I give Yoda his due, BUT being the most Powerful Jedi Master COULD N'T
defeat the Most Powerful Sith. Mace,HIS JUNIOR/ SECOND ONLY DID.
FACT. PROVEN. END OF STORY.

"THE SCRIPT" was designed for another over rated Skywalker to bring the Force back
into Balance. Which he failed. His opportunity to do that was WHEN Mace defeated Sidious,PERIOD.

Instead of trying to learn a "POWER or TECHNIQUE OF THE FORCE that was out of Both Sidious and Anakin's reach. He decides to side with Sidious thus saving him from Mace's DEATH STRIKE OR DEATH BLOW take your pick.

"THE SCRIPT" ALSO states that Mace was or has to Die ? Why ?
When Jedi have been known to survive such FALLS.

Even over rated Luke SkyWalker survived falls.
It was designed for Jedi in his era to survive all those Vongs.
Only a CHOSEN FEW survived the 501st and the other Clones.(Why)?

To say Vaapad CAN'T EVOLVE OR ADAPT to over rated Skywalkers era or beyond that
is like saying Martial Arts or any fighting method can't evolve and adapt to the eras of our time. Bruce Lee introduced the world of his time to mixed martial arts.
In orthe words Jeet Kune Do which since then has adapted and evolved.

NEXT REPLY
IN His Vaapad State Mace is unbeatable in Light Saber Combat.
No one in the Jedi Order can defeat Him LSC when he uses Vaapad.
Depa Billaba is still a close enough factor as the ONLY Jedi in his league
When it comes to Vaapad.
Mace DID ADMIT TO DEPA SURPASSING HIM IN BLADE WORK.

I don't remember the pages but its in shatter point, wookieepeda, and other sources.
This has been proven.

NEXT REPLY
To continue the debate, Depa was getting stronger when she was feeding off the fear
from the inhabitants of Pelek Baw.

And from the death's of each AKK Guard.
So your reply of it doesn't make you stronger is wrong .
Read Shatterpoint. 394pp

About Yoda and Mace to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine about Depa Billaba.
pp21,22,Yoda: A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all.....But dangerous it is -
to its master,as well as its opponent.

About Dooku pp5 and 6.

He's above him in Sabers.(To Me) In a battle in pure Sabers who will fatigue first?
I say Yoda.I mean who's gonna Brag that they're better than Yoda besides Sidious
and Anakin Skywalker.
Nobody argues with Yoda.

You're not gonna hear or read anything about Mace above Yoda as swordsmen.
BC Mace HUMBLES himself to Yoda's skill. They don't just give
anybody the title of MASTER OF THE ORDER. you know.

Wrong... In contest of the Force ? Mace is just as good.
Vaapad is part using Force Powers, yall did know this right?
I mean really? In a Force Battle?

A TK Battle with either Yoda or Sidious or Vader?
Check Shatter Point, ...Nuff Said...

Like I said we have n't seen him Fully Let Loose.
So to say he'll loose in a Force Battle is BS
When again Vaapad was created as part saber, part Force, part unarmed.
That's one of the differences to Juyo and Vaapad,
Vaapad doesn't have Juyo's weakness against Force Attacks.

Why do you think Mace Windu is Second Only to Yoda,?
Besides "THE SCRIPT" and other BS?

Next

A 1000 Vongs? who is this dude?
What about the Voxyn? And May the Force help you, Vornskrs?

How did the Sith tame them to guard their tombs and strong holds?
When these pit bull wolf looking creatures attack and kill any Force user?

The Vongs were using them,too.

Alright, there maybe other things greater than Vaapad
BUT I'm talking about Vaapad and its Future Practitioners .
Everything you just said about using love for others, Pain, Unique connections
to Force.

Who says a practitioner can't bring the same things to Vaapad?
Or have the same State of Mind?

Everything is not just for the Skywalkers or the Solo's.
I read somewhere that Vaapad has different levels of immersion
different levels of mentality.
l'm trying to find that source.

It gave good examples.
l'm just saying Vaapad is not Juyo.
It completes Juyo but it's not Juyo.

Shien is not Djem So
It completes Form V.
But they are not the same.

You also said there is nothing to evolve.
Why?
In Luke's era it's still forbidden to use Juyo or Vaapad.

Are you seriously arguing that Mace Windu>Yoda? Because pretty much every sourcebook today hails Yoda as the best duelist of the PT order.
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
^Implications that Yoda is the best duelist.
He is often grouped to be the greatest Master of the era, a great warrior, a brilliant strategist, a master of TK, a master duelist, a Master at Tutaminis, a Master of Battle Meditation. Hell, Yoda is quite honestly the most versatile Jedi Master in history, and the second most powerful.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Alright, there maybe other things greater than Vaapad
BUT I'm talking about Vaapad and its Future Practitioners .
Everything you just said about using love for others, Pain, Unique connections
to Force.

Who says a practitioner can't bring the same things to Vaapad?
Or have the same State of Mind?

Everything is not just for the Skywalkers or the Solo's.
I read somewhere that Vaapad has different levels of immersion
different levels of mentality.
l'm trying to find that source.

It gave good examples.
l'm just saying Vaapad is not Juyo.
It completes Juyo but it's not Juyo.
Obviously you would support the master of Juyo/Vapaad, given your username, however, you can't deny the things that Vader has walked away from. Sure, Starkiller defeated him, but Vader survived a level of Force Lightning far beyond what Palpatine unleashed. I am not saying who would win, but it would not be a slaughter...Vader does have decades of experience as a Sith Lord and has learned much. Look at his feats in Force Unleashed....
Shien is not Djem So
It completes Form V.
But they are not the same.

You also said there is nothing to evolve.
Why?
In Luke's era it's still forbidden to use Juyo or Vaapad.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Her blade work surpassed his.
source shatter point,wookieepedia,clone wars comics.

You're right about the duel part,though .

Correction... PARTS of her bladework had surpassed his... and this is likely referring to the technical aspect of such.

BTW - Wookieepedia isn't considered a source so much as an open forum for posting whatever in the hell one likes... with some reference to actual source material thrown in for good measure. So many erroneous claims have been influenced by Wookieepedia articles.

Who says a practitioner can't bring the same things to Vaapad?
Or have the same State of Mind?

Everything is not just for the Skywalkers or the Solo's.
I read somewhere that Vaapad has different levels of immersion
different levels of mentality.
l'm trying to find that source.

Obviously there are different levels of immersion. State of mind depends on emotions, they cannot be replicated artificially. You can't make yourself to be more calm than normally or make your self enjoy something more than you normally do, or love someone, when you don't. That's why all characters have inconsistent performance. Fundamental aspect of Vaapad is to relish fight. Windu can't relish fights more than he feels. And fight with Sidious certainly was the most thrilling one, he reached his deepest immersion into Vaapad at that point.

It gave good examples.
l'm just saying Vaapad is not Juyo.
It completes Juyo but it's not Juyo.

You also said there is nothing to evolve.
Why?
In Luke's era it's still forbidden to use Juyo or Vaapad.

Sorry but your statement that it is prohibited to use Juyo, Vaapad or any other style in NJO is completely unsupported.

First, there is no Forms in post RotJ. This knowledge was lost and new styles were invented.

Second, Jaina trained with Mandalorians and Mara utilized her Assasin skills, which is far worse than whatever Jedi style. Jacen as Jedi utilized pain, fear and anger and everyone even followed his idea for a while that there is no light or dark.

Luke himself didn't mind to use anger in some situations. In fight with Caedus he was angered, put whole strength into attacks and utilized some of the durtiest tricks known in combat.

And as I said Jaina and Saba Sebatyne practised the same thing as Vaapad. Jaina - thriving on chaos and Saba - relishing hunt and getting even happier on facing worsy foes.

Vader would kick ass in this fight

Originally posted by Beastyking
Vader would kick ass in this fight

This is not about being fans of Mace.
It's just Fact that Mace kicks Vader's Ass
With either saber unarmed or TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, he can't. Vaapad itself is a state of mind. You can't have multiple states of mind at the same time. Force users can't multi-task like i5 intel, they mostly focus on one particular thing.

I brought other examples apart from Skywalkers. Marek, Ganner Rysode, Kenobi, can name quite a few more less known characters.

Obviously there are different levels of immersion. State of mind depends on emotions, they cannot be replicated artificially. You can't make yourself to be more calm than normally or make your self enjoy something more than you normally do, or love someone, when you don't. That's why all characters have inconsistent performance. Fundamental aspect of Vaapad is to relish fight. Windu can't relish fights more than he feels. And fight with Sidious certainly was the most thrilling one, he reached his deepest immersion into Vaapad at that point.

Vaapad brings absolutely nothing new on technical level. Difference is that with Juyo user is required to use emotions that lead to the darkside but Jedi can do it only on limited level. But with Vaapad user can draw on darkside emotions without feeling guilty and getting consumed by them, so they can lose restraints and still remain Jedi.

As I said emotions can't be replicated artifitially. Force user feels differently depending on circumstances. Neither Windu nor others can experience the same state of mind each time.

Sorry but your statement that it is prohibited to use Juyo, Vaapad or any other style in NJO is completely unsupported.

First, there is no Forms in post RotJ. This knowledge was lost and new styles were invented.

Second, Jaina trained with Mandalorians and Mara utilized her Assasin skills, which is far worse than whatever Jedi style. Jacen as Jedi utilized pain, fear and anger and everyone even followed his idea for a while that there is no light or dark.

Luke himself didn't mind to use anger in some situations. In fight with Caedus he was angered, put whole strength into attacks and utilized some of the durtiest tricks known in combat.

And as I said Jaina and Saba Sebatyne practised the same thing as Vaapad. Jaina - thriving on chaos and Saba - relishing hunt and getting even happier on facing worsy foes.

The script calls for no forms in ROTJ. But Luke mirrors his Father's customized Form V.
Who said you can use all of them at once ?
You can only use one at a time,which one is up to the practitioner.

That's one of the reasons why I don't read NJO.
In Shattter Point, Depa was having a talk with Mace
about being more than a Jedi in order to win the CW.

I guess we can say Jaina and Saba fits this theory.
I agree with you,so far but Vaapad is more than just relish fights
Mace likes to fight, his biggest weakness.

What I'm trying to say is he is not a dumb fighter who constantly makes mistakes.
The man set himself up to get closer to Depa by getting himself beaten up!
Then afterwards said it was fun?

Ok I gave Yoda his props, by the Script he is all those things
but he isn't the only master of everything you just said.
Again who's gonna argue with Yoda!

Wookieepedia says the same about Yoda so what's the difference?
It's a source so,use it....if it works for you.

Ok you've answered some of my questions for Vaapad. thanks.
Maybe I'll read NJO I'm not making any promises. I still don't like that era.

So I guess Yoda was the Power and Mace was the Blade.
You guys made pretty good points, good sources.
Good debate.