Originally posted by Pwned
Wrong. He, at the brink of the dark side, would have used them. Your logic is flawed.
Ah, but he learned to overcome the Dark side through the course of his adventure. 😉
Originally posted by Pwned
He had time to absorb it. Don't say differently, because he did. He empowered a friggin army. And if you are all powerful, you don't need an army.
If you play through the previous game you'll see it doesn't take a long time to empower someone with a fraction of the Valley's Power.
However, absorbing all of it takes some time.
This situation would be akin to a madman leading a group and finding the location of a secret weapons cache.
It consists of a weapons stockpile of rocket-launchers with small tactical nukes - and a fully-sealed bunker with the codes to launch every nuclear silo in the world with total control - and within an impenetrable bunker.
The catch is - the weapons room doesn't take long to open via code, so he can open that room relatively quickly and pass around weapons - but getting into the Bunker will take some time - but once he gets in, he's in a self-sufficient, completely impenetrable room and can destroy the entire world if he desires.
Essentially - any Hero even allowing the madman to make it that far is essentially dooming every lifeform on the planet.
Even following that madman to the location of the site and not capturing or killing him, is a total failure and can lead to the destruction of all life.
Anyway, it doesn't take that long to be given a fraction of the Valley's Power - but getting the whole thing does take some time.
Originally posted by Pwned
Meaning Qu Rahn was either wrong or exaggerating. In universe sources are flawed, and such statements can't be taken as absolute, irrevocable truth due to their unreliability.
If Rahn was wrong or exaggerating, there would have been no need for the Jedi Master to die desperately trying to keep it's existence secret from Jerec.
He appeared to Katarn in a Force dream, warning him emphatically that if Jerec was allowed to absorb all of the Valley's Power, the power to create supernovas in a whisper would be within his power, and in the novelization he says "think planet's out of existence".
So basically, if the Valley of the Jedi was just a wothless piece of real estate, you wouldn't have games and a story built around it.
I can tell you very likely haven't played either game, so I'd recommend going out and buying them both and spending some good time beating them - they're worth it! 😉
(Also, read the novel, it's good!)
Originally posted by Pwned
Seriously, Lucien has a point, you insult people,
I think of it as being descriptive, really. 😎
Originally posted by Pwned
but you tend to fit the insults better than other people.
That's gold - I'm writing it down. 😆
Originally posted by Pwned
You do nothing but, "Oh no, thats not what happened because of a game this character was not even in.
Yeah, it's called actually knowing the material, whereas you and Lucy haven't even played the game yet, and you're trying to make judgement calls on things you don't even know.
I'd call that stupidity in a basic sense, yeah. 😛
Originally posted by Pwned
Oh, and being under rubble but unharmed is a loss. LULZ"
I didn't see Desann under any rubble. 😉
And Luke let Desann leave to attain omnipotent power. Fail.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
*sigh*Okay... I'm giving this one more go.
That's fine - I'll always be here for you. kisss
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How do you know Desann couldn't absorb all the Valley's power? How do you know Desann hadn't already basked in the Valley's power?
There's a difference between basking in the Valley's power, and absorbing it all.
Jerec basked in the Valley's power (Read the novel/play the game - it points it out) but he didn't absorb all it's power the way Rahn warned Kyle about.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And how do you know Luke didn't do to him what Kyle did to Jerec? Actually answer this time.
Does the Outcast game specify Luke did?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... Desann is powerful enough to defeat Luke in combat, but so weak as to not be able to sense that Luke is alive and perfectly well? And if he could sense him alive, why didn't he finish him off? Give me an answer--besides the obvious 'he couldn't defeat Luke so he ran'.
Boy, all of what you just said makes me think of Anakin and Obi-wan for some reason.
Remember that scene where Anakin and Obi-wan are on the Invisible Hand and Anakin drops down into the elevator where Obi-wan was waiting for him, and Obi-wan suddenly ignites his lightsaber, despite the fact that Anakin wasn't that far away from him, and the two have always had such intimate contact with each other?
Obi-wan's a powerful Jedi Master, and Anakin wasn't very far away - so why was Obi-wan seemingly surprised and didn't feel him before?
And what about Qui-gon Jinn and Maul?
Maul stabs Jinn through his torso (which normally kills people) and Jinn drops, still alive. Why didn't Maul finish him off?
They're perfectly good questions.
Hell, maybe Luke hid his Force signature into tricking Desann think he was dead.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Thank you for pointing out my mistakes: "Jerec and Desann... both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi." So both Jerec and Desann were empowered by the Valley, and both were defeated by Kyle and Kyle, respectively.
No, thank You for making yourself into such a jovially mood-inducing idiot. I was having a grey day, until I read your posts.
Oh, and fixed, btw. 😛
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... Desann and minions are in control of the Valley, empowered by it. And Luke--by himself, is enough to scatter them.
- Which does nothing.
Hordes of Desann's Jedi are still alive and Desann is perfectly healthy and alive.
It's like swatting at a Bee's Nest - without actually destroying the Hive, or taking out the Queen - useless.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But then... when Desann is away from the Valley, he is suddenly able to "defeat" Luke?
Being close to, or far away from the Valley doesn't affect a person who absorbed it's power.
You're confusing it's function with a Dark side Nexus, which needs the individual to be localized on or near it for empowerment.
The Valley itself is more like a huge battery. It powers individuals with it's energy, and they can leave the planet and still have all the energy stored within them.
Again, read the novel or play the DFII game.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
*sigh*
Please try to keep up. After Desann ran from Luke, he did not go to "claim his prize at the Valley." He ran to the Doomgiver and left for the Jedi Praxeum. If you're not aware, the Valley is on Ruusan, and the Praxeum is on Yavin IV.
😆
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which doesn't change the fact that he ran away from the leader of the organization he was bent on wiping out. That's either a contradiction in character motive, or an inferiority in power.
How about why didn't Luke defeat him by disarming him without killing him, or using his power to just knock Desann out?
No one seems to have an answer for that one. 😉
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Prove it.
I didn't see him busting any Star Systems, did you?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which incidentally is exactly what you're doing by claiming that Desann "scared" Luke on Ruusan, despite him and his Reborn being scattered by him. I'm more inclined to belive the game's character than I am you.
How will I ever sleep tonight?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Okay... I already know your position on Desann "defeating" Luke at Lenico. But how are you coming to the conclusion that Luke lost to him at Ruusan? He and his forces were scattered... so you translate that to Desann defeat Luke?
Yeah - pretty much. "Scattering" someone's forces by not killing most (if any) of them and failing to even hurt or capture Desann, is pathetic.
He should have come crawling back to Kyle with a better excuse than that.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
*sigh*A.) You're demonstrably making stuff up--talking out of your ass, as you put it.
I'm just trying to be like You!
Can't I idolize a Debator?
Hell, I think I'm doing a pretty good job - considering you haven't played a game/read a book highly relevant to this subject, and you're either ignorant of the facts I know and asking pointless questions, or just assuming things, yourself.
We already know how fishy it was that Luke decides to pass up a chance to incapacitate or capture Desann (not kill) despite the fact the guy best-case scenario was going to build a Second Imperium and reconquer worlds - worst-case scenario and probably most likely, take all of the Valley's power, decide Hethrir isn't that useful to him - and just go on a vengeful killing-spree on the Universe that shunned him.
Count Dooku in AotC was notably more experienced than Anakin and instead of killing him disarmed him (somewhat literally) and maimed him to the floor.
Boom. Done. Non-evil way of taking out an extreme foe - and the fight is done, and your foe is alive.
If, if the power gap between Desann and Luke were like that, which is what you're implying, then Luke should have just been able to do that.
But he couldn't - he failed there, he failed on Ruusan - and it was up to Kyle to save the Universe.
How about we just give that handsome bearded-bastard his accolades?
Luke was cute in the post-RotJ Era before, NJO, I know. But seriously, he failed here - and Katarn deserves Kudos.
Deserves Kudos.
Where's his Kudos, Lucien? Where's his Kudos?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
B.) Even if that were canon, that still means Desann is retarded--defeating your enemy, leaving him alive, abandoning your source of power. That's retarded.
He likely thought Luke was dead, considering that Obi-wan wasn't able to sense a very alive and healthy Anakin a few yards up in an elevator shaft.
Force users aren't perpetually omnipotent, as is apparent sometimes.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
😆
Battlemaster
How about why didn't Luke defeat him by disarming him without killing him, or using his power to just knock Desann out?No one seems to have an answer for that one.
This is nothing new. Luke is nearly butchered by Lumiya in LOTF, despite the fact that Tresina Lobi, who contends with Coleman Trebor in the contest of virtual Jedi nobody, managed to take on Lumiya and Alema Rar simultaneously and nearly killed both. Would you argue that she could hand Luke his ass, too?
Between the points Lucien raised, the consistent trait Luke displays in terms of his reluctance to utilize the full brunt of his powers in combat, and the fact that Kyle is not known to possess either Luke's raw power in the Force or years of Jedi training (and yet somehow beats Desann), it's pretty obvious that Desann can't take JA!Luke.
I have actually beaten both game. You just are not replying to what I say in a fashion that inspires me to say something else.
Such as: Hyperspace travel takes days, even weeks. Kyle arrived at the Valley shortly after Jerec, not giving him much time. We don't know the amount of time Desann had, but by all rights, he had time to get the power. Especially with an army. But Luke beat them off.
Qu Rahn would have died stopping a powerful dark side user from attaining more power when the Jedi were still very weak, yes, of COURSE he urged Kyle to stop him.
You need to realize one thing: Desann did NOT beat Luke. Burying him under rubble then running away is a win as much as Dooku threw the pillar at Kenobi and Skywalker then ran from Yoda.
Yeah, it's called actually knowing the material, whereas you and Lucy haven't even played the game yet, and you're trying to make judgement calls on things you don't even know.You actually don't know material yourself.
I'd call that stupidity in a basic sense, yeah.
And Luke let Desann leave to attain omnipotent power. Fail.
Originally posted by Xendor_Lives
This is nothing new. Luke is nearly butchered by Lumiya in LOTF, despite the fact that Tresina Lobi, who contends with Coleman Trebor in the contest of virtual Jedi nobody, managed to take on Lumiya and Alema Rar simultaneously and nearly killed both. Would you argue that she could hand Luke his ass, too?Between the points Lucien raised, the consistent trait Luke displays in terms of his reluctance to utilize the full brunt of his powers in combat, and the fact that Kyle is not known to possess either Luke's raw power in the Force or years of Jedi training (and yet somehow beats Desann), it's pretty obvious that Desann can't take JA!Luke.
Valid points, my young friend. Desann could have gotten very lucky when fighting Luke.
Originally posted by Pwned
You need to realize one thing: Desann did NOT beat Luke. Burying him under rubble then running away is a win as much as Dooku threw the pillar at Kenobi and Skywalker then ran from Yoda.
That's probably the only point in your post that is grounded at least half-way in reality.
As it stands, either Desann got really lucky, or Stealth Moose is very correct about Luke essentially having a good streak of luck, himself, prior to the events of NJO, when he pretty much won fights straight-up.
One thing is for sure - just as Bloolusted Peak-Mara can clash with RotS Sidious and take him down - Peak Kyle can, too. And probably have a slightly easier time at it.
Kudos for Kyle.
Luke at this time was still cuter than Kyle, though - so he definitely has him beat in the looks-department. 😉
One thing is for sure - just as Bloolusted Peak-Mara can clash with RotS Sidious and take him down - Peak Kyle can, too. And probably have a slightly easier time at it.I see how you like Kyle. But Mara is stronger, than Kyle. She fought darkside Kyle on darkside nexus, fended off all his attacks and ultimately brought him back to the lightside. And she was not in her full potential at that point as later she came to Luke's academy to refine her Jedi skills farther.
Originally posted by ares834Kyle hasn't really been impressive at all outside of his own games, nor has Kyp outside of the JLA series.
Leaving the Mara defeating Sidious debate aside, Mara was far more impressive in LotF than Kyle...
I feel like the authors don't really know what to do with either of them.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Kyle hasn't really been impressive at all outside of his own games, nor has Kyp outside of the JLA series.I feel like the authors don't really know what to do with either of them.
I know what you mean.
During the NJO series at least, Kyp faced off against three Vong Slayers in combat, when they attacked Kyp, Han and Leia and tried to capture them.
Han was firing shots off at one of them, which kind of kept it busy, while the other two attacked Kyp.
When Kyp attacked one with his lightsaber, the Slayer deflected his swings, and as Kyp Force-leaped - the amphistaff of one of the Slayers caught Kyp's foot and slammed him down into the ground, hard.
They literally beat the shit out of him after that. 😬
Kyle Katarn also fought numerous Vong Elites and Slayers, but he didn't have any problems with them.
So we know at least from NJO (though I'm sure I'm missing other occasions where Kyle kicked ass in the series) that Kyle during his latter years was an utter bad ass with a lightsaber, and killed many-a-foe.
Whereas Kyp was seriously lacking in saber skills - though in raw Force power, he's still a Titan.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which book? I don't remember a single example of him fighting Vong in NJO. I am sure you are making stuff up. Agaim.
Kyle killed scores of Yuuzan Vong Elites on Ord Sedra - liberating the world from the Vong.
Originally posted by Arhael
Edit: Slayer's first and the only appearance is in Unifying Force, where they fought in combat only Kyp and Leia and later Luke and twins. Indeed, you make stuff up. Agaib.
I didn't know Equals and Opposites, was a figment of my own imagination. Thanks, 'Tard. 😛
It's been a while since I read NJO so I forgot that bit about the Slayers, but considering NJO Kyle is easily on par with NJO Jacen, Peak Kyle could definitely destroy a trio of Slayers, whereas Kyp could not.
Now hurry up and get to Pre-school before you're late! 😉
(And don't forget your lunchbox)