Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Your lack of understanding is what fails.

Their swordsmanship is reasonably equal as well (NJO Kyle and Jacen)

If Kyle weren't the Temple Battlemaster (which I hope you know is a lightsaber Instructor) then that wouldn't be feasible, but considering Kyle's experience, skill and the similar ease in which he decimated his opponants, it's very reasonable to conclude their swordsmanship is on par.

Despite the fact that Jacen casually pwned him and 2 others while wounded a few years later?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is a blurb canon? IIRC there have been other fallible statements made by blurbs.

Supposedly Luke says that Caedus has become superior to Vader in the book.

Originally posted by Nephthys

I'd also like to see where you get the idea that Jerec is as powerful as Jacen, as well as where its implied that Jacen wasn't more powerful than Vader prior to becoming Darth Caedus.

I actually have business to get to, but I'll get back to you with some more answers, sorry.

The math is kind of buried in Einstein's chalkboard up there; if you look hard enough you'll see where it fits together.

Have a good night.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Fixed.

Spoiler:
Vader is Anakin

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Your lack of understanding is what fails.

Their swordsmanship is reasonably equal as well (NJO Kyle and Jacen)

If Kyle weren't the Temple Battlemaster (which I hope you know is a lightsaber Instructor) then that wouldn't be feasible, but considering Kyle's experience, skill and the similar ease in which he decimated his opponants, it's very reasonable to conclude their swordsmanship is on par. [/B]

Are you saying because Katarn is a Battlemaster he must be equal to Jacen? Because that isn't necessarily true at all. Relying on Kyle's feats is fair but saying he is a battlemaster or using ABC logic to claim he is on par with Jacen is faulty.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that it is.

My point is, that you aren't as well-immersed in the material as I am, and I've had to explain things to you in the past before.

You simply need to do more research with this.

😆

However, I just want you to answer a simple question for me do you believe electric judgement is the same power as sith lightning?

Yes or no answer please.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Supposedly Luke says that Caedus has become superior to Vader in the book.

Supposedly? You mean you don't know?

You simply need to do more research with this, if you hope to take me on. I'm not as generous as you as to, erm, 'help you understand' the truth. You'll need to look it up yourself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is a blurb canon? IIRC there have been other fallible statements made by blurbs.

I'd also like to see where you get the idea that Jerec is as powerful as Jacen, as well as where its implied that Jacen wasn't more powerful than Vader prior to becoming Darth Caedus.

Jacen, now a complete master of the Force...

Is that the book where he overexerts himself and almost passes out from Force-use?

Because if so then totally canon. 👆

I remember Cin Dralig - battlemaster of old order and how Anakin was casually fending off his attacks holding lightsaber in one hand.

Sidious's fight with Marek reveals a thing or two about his defensive capabilities.

During this encounter, Sidious got the taste of his own medicine (he got engulfed by his own Force Lightning assault - thanks to efforts of Marek) and he tolerated the pain he felt. Surprisingly, Sidious continued to assault Marek with his Force Lightning during this painful experience.

And when Marek gave himself to the Force and a powerful blast followed, Sidious took the brunt of this blast, which shredded the nearby Stormtroopers, and was still fine.

So?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Supposedly? You mean you don't know?

You simply need to do more research with this, if you hope to take me on. I'm not as generous as you as to, erm, 'help you understand' the truth. You'll need to look it up yourself.

I already know you're a formidable Debator. No doubts there. ;3

I don't have the book on me, but other posts I've seen indicate Luke makes the statement in the book, and apparently it's reflected in the synopsis as well.

Originally posted by ares834
However, I just want you to answer a simple question for me do you believe electric judgement is the same power as sith lightning?

Yes or no answer please.

I'm getting to you, Sunshine. 😄

Originally posted by ares834

Spoiler:
Vader is Anakin

My point was that Anakin and Vader are two different Personas - with different mentalities and fighting-styles, so to speak.

It was Anakin, and not Vader, who demolished Count Dooku - and it was Vader and not Anakin, who lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So the example you tried to cite up there was a poor one.

Originally posted by ares834

Are you saying because Katarn is a Battlemaster he must be equal to Jacen? Because that isn't necessarily true at all. Relying on Kyle's feats is fair but saying he is a battlemaster or using ABC logic to claim he is on par with Jacen is faulty.

That's because again, you didn't understand the concept I was conveying to you.

My point is, it's stated on the covers of Invincible that Jacen has now surpassed Vader in power.
Apparently when others had learned of this revelation earlier, they didn't have much of a problem with it's validity.

Anyway.

When Kyle was a Neophyte, he faced off against a man who already rivaled Vader - after this man became empowered by the Valley of the Jedi.

Neophyte Kyle learned swordsmanship from the spirit of Jedi Master Qu Rahn, as he went from planet to planet, slaying each of Jerec's Dark Jedi.

Like Mara, Kyle is essentially like a Star Wars version of Batman - and Mara and Kyle are good examples of what Luke Skywalker would be like, if he weren't a Gary Stu - extremely powerful and experienced - but not an automatic Force God.

Kyle defeated an extremely knowledgeable and powerful Dark Jedi whose abilities were beyond that of Darth Vader, if by just a little.

Then he went on a series of adventures, constantly polishing his skills - dealing with Sith Spirits (See:Mysteries of the Sith) training Mara Jade in the ways of Jedi Knighthood, and then eventually joined up with Luke Skywalker formally, and later became the Academy's Battlemaster - a profession dealing mostly with the cultivation and study of swordsmanship.

Like the other two previous Battlemasters before him (Cin Drallig, a beast - and Anoon Bondara, said to be extremely deadly in his time) Kyle became a skilled and powerful asset to the New Jedi Order.

With his skills being in constant practice and development, due to the nature of his profession, he was ready to handle the mission to liberate Ord Sedra from Yuuzhan Vong army there - and was able to cut a swathe of destruction through them with little help from anyone (due to the fact the army that arrived there with him was largely massacred by the Vong).

Like Mara, Kyle showed quick adaptability to different skills and concepts, and he also showed tremendous raw strength in the Force at earlier points in his training, such as when he stopped a series of stone blocks weighing thousands of pounds each from crushing Jaden Korr in a Sith Temple.

So, flash forward 20+ years later, with much development and gained knowledge and you have an even more powerful Katarn.

Aside from a few seemingly random powers gained by Jacen, I don't see any evidence of him being more powerful than Katarn, as of NJO.

Doing the math, and stacking up what we know, side by side, would conclude Katarn being just as powerful - if not more.

It's very possible that when Jacen became the Sith Lord Darth Caedus, he surpassed Katarn in skill and power, though his showing in LotF against Katarn isn't very solid, as Kyle was sent on a mission to merely use a diversion to plant a Tracking Device on Caedus (implying this was not a mission to kill, or even capture him - so he had to refrain from those actions) and at the same time Katarn had to watch for the safety of the more inexperienced Knights around him, dividing his focus.

Add to the fact that the normally arrogant and egotistical Caedus actually noted that he considered Kyle Katarn a threat.

Again, if you break even logically, you still see this as them meeting on a sort of even ground - Caedus is weary of Katarn, and Katarn is sent expressly - not to kill or capture Caedus - but just to utilize a diversion and planet a tracker on him.

Originally posted by ares834

😆

However, I just want you to answer a simple question for me do you believe electric judgement is the same power as sith lightning?

Remind me please.

Originally posted by ares834
That's because Plo Koon is using a LS variant of Force Lightning not Emerald Lightning. Only the wook says they are the same.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
What do you think Electric Judgement is?? 😆

Originally posted by ares834
lol

Quit editing my quotes.

😉

ABC =/= D

8=====D ---

Originally posted by Battlemaster
My point was that Anakin and Vader are two different Personas - with different mentalities and fighting-styles, so to speak.

It was Anakin, and not Vader, who demolished Count Dooku - and it was Vader and not Anakin, who lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So the example you tried to cite up there was a poor one.

No, that is my point. Hence why I said there were other factors involved. In Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin was fighting recklessly while in his duel with Dooku he fought incredibly well. You see, different factors.

Originally posted by Battlemaster Arguments

You see, that is a fair argument. While I disagree with some of it you presented evidence other than simply saying Kyle>Jerec (empowered)>Vader>Jacen or some version similar.

As for the EL, I'm confused. First you claimed I said EL isn't force lighting but then post an example where I say it is the same? Regardless, I'm asking you what you believe. Quit avoiding the question. I'll say right now I don't believe it is the same, similar yes. But not the same.

Originally posted by ares834
No, that is my point. Hence why I said there were other factors involved. In Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin was fighting recklessly while in his duel with Dooku he fought incredibly well. You see, different factors.

No, the reason Anakin lost the duel against Obi-Wan is because Obi-Wan knew all of Anakins moves, he trained Anakin and knew exactly how he would fight.

I will however say that in the duel against Dooku, Anakin was 'in the zone' and also that Makashi is known to be weak against the kinetic force of Djem So. In the duel vs Obi-Wan, Anakin was all rage, against 'the master' of Soresu and someone who knew all of Anakins moves and tactics.

As they say, styles make fights.

Originally posted by ares834
No, that is my point. Hence why I said there were other factors involved. In Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin was fighting recklessly while in his duel with Dooku he fought incredibly well. You see, different factors.

It's a poor example, because Vader and Anakin might as well mentally be two completely different individuals.

It has nothing to do with the Kyle/Jacen argument.

Originally posted by ares834

You see, that is a fair argument. While I disagree with some of it you presented evidence other than simply saying Kyle>Jerec (empowered)>Vader>Jacen or some version similar.

Yep.

Originally posted by ares834

As for the EL, I'm confused. First you claimed I said EL isn't force lighting but then post an example where I say it is the same? Regardless, I'm asking you what you believe. Quit avoiding the question. I'll say right now I don't believe it is the same, similar yes. But not the same.

What I believe?

I believe in Canon, Mr. ares834

Without Canon, there would be chaos.

As it stands, I want you to learn and grow in your knowledge of Jedi and Sith Lore.

So read, research, study-up and think.

Originally posted by Master_Galen
As they say, styles make fights.

That they do.

lol ares is getting trolled.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It's a poor example, because Vader and Anakin might as well mentally be two completely different individuals.

It has nothing to do with the Kyle/Jacen argument.

And Jacen and Vader are mentally two completely different individuals.

What I believe?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I believe in Canon, Mr. ares834

Without Canon, there would be chaos.

As it stands, I want you to learn and grow in your knowledge of Jedi and Sith Lore.

So read, research, study-up and think.

So you agree with me that they are different. Good.